@ said:

Nothing will be more important than scoring high on the LSAT. This is especially true if you're planning on going straight to law school. I would put more time into that than trying to be involved in 4-5 clubs and tons of internships that frankly won't make all that much of a difference. Really rare/prestigious positions and actual work experience in relevant fields can be quite helpful. The top schools generally prefer candidates with 2-3 years work experience. Getting something at a law firm would be helpful, not only on your apps, but also so you can get a feel for what lawyers actually do.

I was also told that things like Phi Beta Kappa look really good on your law school apps.

Overall, just focus on keeping your GPA >3.9 and scoring in the 170s on the LSAT. If you can manage those two things, you can pretty much write your ticket to almost any Ivy league law school.

that's really interesting information! I'd always had a firm belief that unless your grades were perfect or near-perfect these things made all the difference. Thanks, I'll be sure to prioritize my GPA and LSAT scores! I'd still like to do as many of these clubs as possible. I think it comes down to discipline and if I can learn to harness all the time I waste without thinking of it I'll be able to do all these things with no trade-offs! Also appreciate the Alpha etc mention. This is the first I've heard of it and it's not available to me but I take from that that prestigious associations are a plus.

@ said:

Hi there! I think your goal is realistic but it’s going to be a very tough time frame to do it in on top of your other commitments. I agree that it’d probably be better not to commit to a set number of house per day, just try to study as much as you can and see if it works.

157 is a great diagnostic! I started at 155 and it took me about 6 months of consistent studying (about 2 hours per weekday, longer sessions on weekends) on top of working full time to get to consistently in the 168-169 range. Everyone is different though.

I think it’s totally reasonable and realistic that you could make it into that 172+ range but the most likely scenario is that it would take longer to get there. Since you’re still in school, the most important thing is that you keep your grades up. You can always study for the LSAT later, but once your GPA is done there’s nothing you can do about it. It’s crucial that you don’t let your grades suffer for this. It sounds like you have a ton of commitments so just be aware of that and don’t let your grades slip.

There’s also nothing wrong with taking a year or two after undergrad to work and study for the LSAT. Many law schools even favor that and want you to have work experience. So just take a deep breath and remember there is always time for this later too. :)

thanks for your take Leah! I think I do need to be realistic about this, but I do think if I put enough attention towards it I can get there! I haven't ever focused on anything in my life the way that I have been so that gives me cause to be optimistic about my potential for quick improvement. What I've decided to do is make absolute sure my grades don't slip (only start LSAT work after my coursework). I know it's generally much preferred to take time off in between undergrad and law school, but my plan is to go straight from one to the other and I'm trying really hard to make it happen!

@ said:

Why are you disappointed by a 157 diagnostic? That's a 70th percentile score, and you haven't studied yet. Idk what you are studying, but tbh I don't see how 4 hours per day is realistic on top of overloading in college classes and all of the other stuff you are involved in. I tried studying for lsat during in my last semester of undergrad, and it just wasn't happening on top of all my other commitments. Waiting to study till I was done with college classes, and postponing the test to when I was actually ready, is one my smartest decisions.

If I were you, and was able to do LSAT stuff at all, I would just start with CC, and study as much as you see realistic, without setting a hard daily hours goal. If you see that it's too much, just postpone the LSAT till later. Try to relax a bit about it, the test is bad enough on it's own, so a positive attitude and outlook go a long way.

You said that you decided to do it in June, but do you have any strong reasons to not to postpone till September?

thanks! I think that after reading up a bit more here, September is a far better bet. It gives me 7 months to prepare. I'd initially wanted to give myself a chance to repeat it and still apply early, but now I really do think it would be better to take it after more preparation than it is to take it twice, even if I'm risking being unhappy with my score and re-taking it in early December (and having my scores come out too late to take advantage of rolling admissions). I now think 4 hours is unrealistic for sure as well. I will try to aim for 2-3, with a long stretch on weekends and an off day sometime in the week!

Thank you all for the helpful input! I think I've settled on delaying it until mid September, though I was initially reluctant to do so because that would make repeating it in early December prevent me from applying early on (rolling admissions!) But I think it would make all the difference in the world to have a couple of summer months almost fully dedicated to it! It would be better for me to take it when I can score higher than to score low and repeat it.

@ said:

A couple of thoughts...

As @ said, above all guard your GPA. That's the best advice!

As far as your other questions, they are impossible to answer. Every single person has different strengths and weaknesses when it comes to this test. For me, it was fairly easy for me to get into the 160s because of my background in philosophy. After that, every point to the 170 mark has only come after tons of review and drilling. However, this progress can't be measured in hours nor extrapolated to say how long it would take you.

If I could go back now, I would start with Ult+. The CC is the same but you're getting very helpful extras. I think having all of the tests, LR/LG bundles, and explanations (my fav!) is quite instrumental to have from the beginning. But if you go with a starter or premium and then upgrade, I think you'll be fine, too.

Good luck!

Thanks! I think the Ult+ would be the best option from the get go as well, and I'll do my best to put in the hours without sabotaging my GPA! I've been putting in more effort than ever in my coursework this semester, so I like to think I have that managed, but at the same time it's so time consuming. I just hope I can manage to make use of all the hours in ult+!

@ said:

Hey, @ ! It seems like you are kicking butt in undergrad and preparing yourself to be in a solid place post-graduation (be it law school or a job). While this is a bit of a different suggestion, I wanted to share some thoughts.

It is extremely hard to prepare effectively for the LSAT while maintaining a ~3.9 GPA. During my junior year (2014-2015), I worked tirelessly to gain improvements in my score and even took the in-person PowerScore class. Even with all of that, I was flatlined at a 160 and couldn't breakthrough. Similar to you, I worked hard to maintain a solid GPA (your GPA is stronger than mine was, I graduated with a 3.79) and participated in tons of extra-curricular activities (university government, internships, part-time jobs). In the end, I was simply stretched too thin, limiting my ability to approach the LSAT prep with the frame of mind I needed.

So, I put a pause on it. I knew I could score better than what I was scoring and that I could've studied more effectively (I look back on it now and giggle as to how inefficient I was being trying to juggle so many things at once).

Have you interned in a legal setting? Have you thought about working for a year + post undergrad to gain more experience and solidify the "why law" decision for both yourself and your personal statement? While I recognize these are conflicting questions to have asked, I might ruminate on them if you're willing. The LSAT will always be there. Law school will always be there.

Since I've taken time off, I've explored other professional interests that have only further validated my personal reasons for pursuing a legal career. And, because I have a grasp on my job, I am mentally fresh in the mornings, evenings and weekends to focus on LSAT prep. I've already seen my score grow more than it was back in undergrad. Further, I now feel much more confident that I could handle a law school environment as I am more aware of my strengths in an office setting. I would be afraid to dive into a career in law having never worked full-time elsewhere, because there are soft skills that apply to any job.

Sorry if this post is annoying! Just wanted to share some thoughts. I don't think you need to pressure yourself to get that 172+ now. If it isn't happening, breathe and focus on what is happening in your life. Come back to the world of the LSAT when you have the brain space to do so.

Best of luck!

This is so helpful and great advice!

I think I'll adjust my score and study expectations for as long as I have classes, and I'm taking the LSAT in September, giving me the summer to do almost nothing but study for it. Until then, I'll only do as much as I can! and I've been considering running for student government but I think I'll draw the line before that now. I'll definitely be a lot more selective on what I spend my time and attention!

I haven't interned anywhere yet, but I do have some work experience. I've worked a lot with, and not yet in, different offices. Where I live is an incredibly corporate centered environment and my university is very much industry-involved, so I do have some exposure to work environments, but I know I should look to have plenty more. I'm definitely looking into one of my upcoming internships being in the legal sector, and after hearing from you I think I will look for that one first! I'm thinking to do 2 4-week internships in Spring and 1 in Summer I (it counts as a credited course too!). That leaves me 2 months to fully dedicate for the LSAT.

@ said:

I'm taking 6 classes right now, similar GPA to you. I did the same last semester. I studied for the LSAT last semester about 1-2 hours a day and was still able to get a 4.0 for that semester. It can be done. It's hard though. 5 hours a day? You're not gonna have a life - plus it's really easy to let your GPA slip if you're devoting that much time into something other than school.

4 months to make a jump from 157 to 175 is insane, even for those studying full time. Our brains need time to absorb all of the information we're taking in. You 100% can make that improvement, given a year or more, but I doubt that you can do it in such a short of time.

Don't sell yourself short, or risk damaging such a pristine GPA. I'd advise that you start off studying 3 hours a day, see how it goes. If you feel you are retaining information from the CC, try ramping it up. Make up for the hours you lose during the week on weekends by studying more. Take a day off every week - seriously. Finally, they've added a July test, shoot for that one instead of June. If you're not ready for July, then you can always postpone until September and make apps in October (still early in the cycle).

A final note, your score distribution on the June 2007 diagnostic is important. For example, -17 LR, -11 RC, -8 LG, would be harder to improve (generally speaking) than a -12 LR, -8 RC, -16 LG. It's still the same diagnostic score, 154, but the second case will have an easier time making score improvements quickly. This is because LG is by far the most improvable section over a short period of time. The second case above, could foolproof games 1-35 over 2-3 months and would probably get -3/-4 on a consistent basis. They'd bring their score up about 10 points in a very short time. For LR it's harder to do in a short period of time, and RC is all about exposure to questions and repetition. There's no foolproof way to do these in a couple months.

I hope this helps :) Good luck.

It's motivating to know you've done it! I'm going to take your advice and not risk my GPA. I'll start at 3 hours and see what I can do with that. I'm adamant on getting a 4.0 this semester (I always get bored with a course and slack a bit in it. Enough to dent the GPA) and have been putting more effort into my courses than I ever have before. The problem is that that takes up so much time. You're right, I would risk all other aspects of my life by aiming for 4 hours a day!

I can't take the July test because it's not offered outside of North America, but I've decided to give myself until September (7 months!) to study instead. I think it will do better for my overall score than taking it early.

Thanks for pointing the importance of the breakdown out. Mine is

LG -10

RC -9

LR -10

@ said:

I'm going to be completely honest with you. I work full time at the courthouse and I'm working to take the June test right now....I have the premium plan and it's hard. I try to watch a couple lessons in the morning before work, then I watch lessons during my lunch break and then I put in about 2 hours at home every night. Then on the weekends, I working on LSAT for literally 8 hours. YOU WILL FALL BEHIND! Sometimes you get sick, sometimes you absolutely need a break from the LSAT so you can refresh your mind. This is just me but I wanted to put my two cents out there. I wish the best of luck to you though!

thanks for the reality check. I've been realizing over the past couple of days that my plan of 5-6 hours is just not feasible. I'd briefly forgotten I have other things to do! I'm looking into 2-3 daily, and a long go on the weekends and maybe 1 day off a week! I'll try to be consistent but flexible. I'm really worried in getting too caught up in other things to prepare well!

@ said:

15 isnt a long shot,

I got a 23 point jump, it’s all a matter of how much you want it and are willing to work for it

that's encouraging! Do you mind sharing where you started and ended up, and how long you studied for and how much?

@ said:

In case you haven't heard, there's a new additional test date on July 23, 2018! I hope this helps in your planning.

thanks for letting me know! Unfortunately it will only be offered in North America.

Update: now that the first wave midterm season is upon me I've come to a decision: almost definitely delaying law school by a year! I can't see myself possibly balancing between the GPA and LSAT scores I want, and I'm not dying to experience hardcore burnout! Anyway, I'll be around longer than previously thought. Wish me luck!

Update: now that the first wave midterm season is upon me I've come to a decision: almost definitely delaying law school by a year! I can't see myself possibly balancing between the GPA and LSAT scores I want, and I'm not dying to experience hardcore burnout! Anyway, I'll be around longer than previously thought. Wish me luck!

@ said:

Hey so first relax. Breath and take a couple of days to collect yourself.

It is mid August. That gives you 3 and 1/2 months to study for this test. If you can dedicate significant time to studying your goal of a 170 is attainable by December. I started at a 157 and am now near the 170 mark after about three months of studying.

You can't do that burnt out though. Enjoy a week of your summer before you come back and tackle this test head on.

Second, I have NEVER regretted spending the money on the Ultimate+ package. I have access to SO MUCH valuable learning material, it is truly outstanding. I would highly recommend going with the Ultimate package.

Once you are back from the break and ready to go head first into the LSAT be systematic with your approach. Go through the core curriculum and really focus on the basics. This means understanding conditional logic, argument structures and question types for LR. Understanding how to build game boards and make inferences in LG and how to read for structure and attitude in RC. J.Y. and this community will always have your back. If a video by J.Y. doesn't make sense, come here and people like @ @ @ @ and many many more will do their best to help you understand.

You are fully capable of doing this and you DON'T HAVE TO DECIDED RIGHT NOW. You have time.

Relax!!!

I just wanted to jump in and say this is really inspiring! I have a 157 diagnostic score and plan to take the LSAT in September (with no chance at a retake!) and aim for a 170+. I'm glad to know you did it. How many hours did you dedicate to studying every day/ week? I'm an undergraduate as well so I always have coursework piling up too. I'd like to know it's possible though!

@ said:

157 is a great diagnostic! I would first focus all my efforts on improving that score to the 170s within 7 months. Its definitely possible for you. Once you get that score, come back to us and we will read your palms to see your chances at ivy league schools. Top 14 law schools arent all ivy leagues but they are the gold standard for legal education

Thank you! I'm buying a study package (is that what we call it here) and I'll be around! I agree that T14s are the goal. I'm only focusing on IVY leagues to convince myself I NEED to score in the 170s!

@ said:

I mean I think having the high LSAT is going to be a factor but I've seen and read about people with high gpas(4.0s) and high lsats (180s) still not getting into Ivy's. A lot of times this is because their overall application, with significant attention to the personal statement, being the breaker. Yes, focus on the lsat and your gpa, but I would also work on making a great personal statement. Even signing up for an admission course that will help you brain storm and make critical assessments of what you have could be of benefit. I recommend even reading Ivy's guide to law school admissions. She gives great advice on personal and diversity statements. I'm not saying this to dishearten you by any means I just want you to really think about you whole application. Remember that they do care what your entire application looks like and just having a high lsat and high ugpa won't necessarily guarantee your admission.

@ said:

I mean I think having the high LSAT is going to be a factor but I've seen and read about people with high gpas(4.0s) and high lsats (180s) still not getting into Ivy's. A lot of times this is because their overall application, with significant attention to the personal statement, being the breaker. Yes, focus on the lsat and your gpa, but I would also work on making a great personal statement. Even signing up for an admission course that will help you brain storm and make critical assessments of what you have could be of benefit. I recommend even reading Ivy's guide to law school admissions. She gives great advice on personal and diversity statements. I'm not saying this to dishearten you by any means I just want you to really think about you whole application. Remember that they do care what your entire application looks like and just having a high lsat and high ugpa won't necessarily guarantee your admission.

Thanks for the advice! I'm generally aware that admissions depend on far more than grades but now I'll be directing my attention towards the rest of my application. I'll look into an admissions course (though I'm doubtful of what I'll find since I live outside the US) and either way will order books on the subject and start thinking of it!

@ said:

@ said:

Thank you all for your advice!

@ said:

@ said:

@ Oh haha no problem man! I was just curious because I'm also interested in Ivy league schools :)

Solid advice though!

Thanks!

I also want to go ivy or NYU (and have no interest in international law, public or private, anymore. Hahaha).

You're right to guess that my interests tend to go in that direction, but I've fortunately already realized what you did (that to affect change international public law is not a good bet). I still plan on interning at a law firm before applying, so I should be fairly sure whether or not law is for me before it gets late!

@ said:

I agree with what other people have said, but one other thing: this is way too much stuff for a year and a half if you are also in school full time. If I looked at that list of activities in that time period on a resume, I would assume that you were BSing a lot of it and it wasn't actually meaningful. I'm no law school admissions person, but I have hired, and it isn't just about the experience, it's about the quality of the experience. 3-4 internships in the next 6 months? That means you're only doing each one for 2 months at most, and unless you're clocking serious hours or it's part of a program that puts you through different rotations, you're just not going to get that much from an internship. Maybe you'd get something that would help you understand the field better, which is nothing to sneeze at, but my gut is that you are zooming through way too much way too fast.

What will you want to do? What will you love to do? Pick one, maybe two clubs. Do well at them and actually dive in. I would be skeptical of anyone who started 5 clubs in one year, or maybe I'd just assume they didn't do much with them. Find something that will let you actually learn about where you want to go, not just that will give you empty titles for your resume.

As for clubs I've decided to keep it to a bare minimum (only things that make a difference and have a real effect on my environment, and only 2-3) (plus track if I can fit in it because that's a stress killer!) And I'll focus on getting in 2 internships; one in law and another in something related to my economics major, since that's recommended anyway. Maybe risk analysis or the sort!

@ said:

@ I completely agree with this. I've talked with admissions reps at many T14 schools, and they all have said that they much prefer candidates who can demonstrate a depth of experience vs breadth (quality vs quantity, I guess). The Northwestern rep i talked to was especially adamant about this.

Ultimately, their advice led me to take two years off instead of applying directly out of undergrad. I worked part time all through college and I was heavily involved in volunteerism, research, and student housing leadership, but it seemed like the top schools that I talked to really wanted to see real world experience rather than college extracurriculars/internships. Accordingly, I would echo the advice that adcoms could almost certainly care less about how many clubs you are involved in during undergrad.

@ why the focus on Ivy League schools in particular? Is there something that sets Yale/Harvard/Columbia/Penn/Cornell apart from the rest of the T14 for you? Not questioning your selection here—I'm just curious about your reasoning.

I know that work experience is extremely important, but I'd much prefer to enter law school as early as possible (it fits better in my life that way). Now that nearly everyone's expressed that extracurriculars and internships won't substitute for real work experience, I think my best bet is to work on my GPA and LSAT score.

I'm certain that little sets the IVY league apart from T14 schools, aside from the rep. I plan to apply to T14s as well, but I think it makes sense in terms of my score to aim to get into the most selective of them! On a side note, I won't be applying to Northwestern with my next to 0 experience CV.

Actually, I think that is a mistake. Northwestern has been known to accept strong applicants straight from undergrad with big scholarships on the condition that they defer for a year. Potentially locking that in or negotiating based on it seems worth $35 if you get a fee waiver.

This is the first I've read of this! I'll be sure to apply now, provided that I manage to pull my LSAT score up to where it needs to be!

Thank you all for your advice!

@ said:

@ said:

@ Oh haha no problem man! I was just curious because I'm also interested in Ivy league schools :)

Solid advice though!

Thanks!

I also want to go ivy or NYU (and have no interest in international law, public or private, anymore. Hahaha).

You're right to guess that my interests tend to go in that direction, but I've fortunately already realized what you did (that to affect change international public law is not a good bet). I still plan on interning at a law firm before applying, so I should be fairly sure whether or not law is for me before it gets late!

@ said:

I agree with what other people have said, but one other thing: this is way too much stuff for a year and a half if you are also in school full time. If I looked at that list of activities in that time period on a resume, I would assume that you were BSing a lot of it and it wasn't actually meaningful. I'm no law school admissions person, but I have hired, and it isn't just about the experience, it's about the quality of the experience. 3-4 internships in the next 6 months? That means you're only doing each one for 2 months at most, and unless you're clocking serious hours or it's part of a program that puts you through different rotations, you're just not going to get that much from an internship. Maybe you'd get something that would help you understand the field better, which is nothing to sneeze at, but my gut is that you are zooming through way too much way too fast.

What will you want to do? What will you love to do? Pick one, maybe two clubs. Do well at them and actually dive in. I would be skeptical of anyone who started 5 clubs in one year, or maybe I'd just assume they didn't do much with them. Find something that will let you actually learn about where you want to go, not just that will give you empty titles for your resume.

As for clubs I've decided to keep it to a bare minimum (only things that make a difference and have a real effect on my environment, and only 2-3) (plus track if I can fit in it because that's a stress killer!) And I'll focus on getting in 2 internships; one in law and another in something related to my economics major, since that's recommended anyway. Maybe risk analysis or the sort!

@ said:

@ I completely agree with this. I've talked with admissions reps at many T14 schools, and they all have said that they much prefer candidates who can demonstrate a depth of experience vs breadth (quality vs quantity, I guess). The Northwestern rep i talked to was especially adamant about this.

Ultimately, their advice led me to take two years off instead of applying directly out of undergrad. I worked part time all through college and I was heavily involved in volunteerism, research, and student housing leadership, but it seemed like the top schools that I talked to really wanted to see real world experience rather than college extracurriculars/internships. Accordingly, I would echo the advice that adcoms could almost certainly care less about how many clubs you are involved in during undergrad.

@ why the focus on Ivy League schools in particular? Is there something that sets Yale/Harvard/Columbia/Penn/Cornell apart from the rest of the T14 for you? Not questioning your selection here—I'm just curious about your reasoning.

I know that work experience is extremely important, but I'd much prefer to enter law school as early as possible (it fits better in my life that way). Now that nearly everyone's expressed that extracurriculars and internships won't substitute for real work experience, I think my best bet is to work on my GPA and LSAT score.

I'm certain that little sets the IVY league apart from T14 schools, aside from the rep. I plan to apply to T14s as well, but I think it makes sense in terms of my score to aim to get into the most selective of them! On a side note, I won't be applying to Northwestern with my next to 0 experience CV.