@sunday9t9t677 said:

@marcdelgado01942 congratulations on getting into your dream school! What would be your greatest piece of advice that got you our of your score plateau in the mid 160's? I find that 9 out of 10 times I am narrowing it down to 2 and just picking the wrong one. Upon review, it seems painfully obvious. Did you have a similar experience? If so, how did you structure your review to overcome it?

Great question, and good luck with the test!

I think the best advice I can give for your situation (which also lead to a huge score bump for me) was just moving on from a question if I didn't immediately foresee/eliminate what the correct/incorrect answers would be. Normally, I would be able to immediately predict what I was looking for, and find it. Remember: there are no "kinda right" and "kinda wrong" answers on the LSAT. There are four VERY wrong answers and one VERY correct answer. If it doesn't jump out right away, don't waste your time. Move on, and come back when you're done with the other questions.

I know it feels difficult to do this ("but I just invested so much time in processing the question in my head!") but you'll save so much time using this skipping strategy. Don't buy into the sunk cost fallacy. The time you spend panicking about not knowing the correct choice is time that you can better spend on the next question. The marginal value of those additional sections is huge. I also employ the same strategy when I simply don't understand the question stimulus, or when my brain simply wasn't working.

I think I skipped about 5-8 questions per LR section (and even one or two RC/LG questions per section). Doing so helped me jump from scrambling to finish each section to comfortably seeing each section completed with a minute or two or either relax or look over a question I was really unsure about.

Let me know if you want to talk specifics about how to approach this issue, but for me this was the best way that I found to just improve all around, especially in the mid- or high-160s.

I don't think the drilling packages are there. Do you basically mean looking at what type of question you are weak on and doing that question in a drill to just get better at it specifically?

Oh that's too bad! I know they reformed the system when LSAC changed the copyright rules for LSAT materials.

Basically, I would do about 40 or so questions of a question type whenever I finished all the lessons on that type of question in the course. So if the course section was about sufficient assumptions, I would do 40 of those questions. I only returned to those drills once I had taken a sufficient number of PTs, and therefore could identify what question types I had the most trouble with (strangely--since it's considered the "easiest"--I was really bad with must be true question types!). Hope that helps and good luck!

@aliceshang153 said:

Congratulations on getting to Yale. Fantastic job! Did you visit Yale before accepting or was it always your goal to get there? And if you visited, what was your trip like?

I wanted to ask you about drilling. I've been drilling games for a few years now, I have the Cambridge LG Bundle (PT 21-40), and I've mastered most of the easy and mid level games. The harder games are still a struggle, I'm not totally lost because I usually go - 2; -1; or - 0, but my timing is awful (11 - 17 mins). I've followed JY's advice and redone all the games as much as possible (I've done some games 20 times), but my concern is that I'm not learning how to attack LG correctly. What I mean by that is that I'm not learning how to make inferences and hypotheticals quickly enough. I'm not able to identify what boards/diagrams to use. Proof of this is that even though I mastered the easy games in PT21 - 40, when I encounter a new game elsewhere, I struggle with timing and accuracy on even easy games. Any advice on this? I'm convinced that the only reason I mastered the easy to mid level games in the Cambridge bundle is because I'm familiar with them and internally memorized how to approach them.

I'm convinced that I'm going to need a tutor because I just don't know what else to do. I've already done PT21- 40 and I would like to save the other PTs for prep. Any help would be really appreciated.

Congrats again!

Thanks for the kind words. I didn't visit the law school itself because I didn't want to jinx anything, but I had moved to New Haven a year prior so my girlfriend could go to med school up here. So I felt really fortunate to get in since that ended up saving me a (would be, but for the pandemic) long commute to NYC.

I totally feel you on the difficulties with having done the PTs so many times and knowing them super well. I took the LSAT a few times, and by the end I was struggling to separate out my prior knowledge from my attempts to learn new strategies. I would recommend 1) using PTs 1-21 if you haven't already. They are actually a really great subset of PTs to practice LG with, since they have a lot of curve ball games that are increasingly common on the LSAT. 2) I would highly recommend watching people like JY (or the guy from LSAT Hacks -- Gramme?) complete the games so you can see how they approach it. I know it seems like a grind, but it really is basically rote memorization and just learning to apply the patterns to the games. There are only so many different forms of games they can throw at you. Being in the -2 to -0 range is pretty good though, so I think you're on the right track. Even after I felt I had really "mastered" the games section, I would still sometimes slip up a bit. Is the 11-17 minutes timing per game, or for the whole section?

I'll also throw out there that, while I really wouldn't encourage using something like PowerScore to practice LR or RC, the LGs they make up aren't horrible. (Apologies to PowerScore if they don't invent their own questions--I'm pretty sure they do though?). LG is, again, really just five or six different formulas that they throw out there, so it's pretty easy for PowerScore and other companies to invent their own. I'm sure there are other similar services out there that make up LG sections.

I have two more bits of LG advice. The first is to focus on game setup. That can be the difference between a 2 minute game and a 5 minute game. That just comes from drilling I think. The second is that you should 100% skip a game question that's a time sink. The classic example for me is the "ok, we are dropping X rule and adding Y rule." That's asking you to do a full game setup again. That's a huge time sink. Skip it, go on to the other games, and then come back to it at the end.

I hope that helps. If I can provide any additional information please let me know!

@mreed29828 said:

can you talk more about what drilling looked like for you?

Sure! I should note that, at the time, most of my LR drilling was based on the drill packages JY had put together in the ultimate+ course. I'm not sure if that's still there--I think there was some rumor of that all changing with the digital version--but if it's gone, I think you can just use question types from the earlier tests to drill LR.

The most drilling I did was for LG, simply because I knew it was "low hanging fruit" and that, if I mastered LG to the point where I would finish with a lot of time to spare, I would be able to relax a bit during the exam. I did a variation on the fool-proof method 7Sage recommends (https://classic.7sage.com/how-to-get-a-perfect-score-on-the-logic-games/). I printed out a bunch of answer sheets, and just did the LG from PT 1-16 over and over and over again, timing it and keeping a spread sheet of my times. It got to the point where I could do the games in about ~4 minutes each, so it was pretty quick to run through all the tests. I know that it sounds like that wouldn't be very helpful, but I found it to be extremely useful. There are only so many variations of logic games questions they can throw at you, and only a handful of ways that they can trick you on the exam. Doing these 16 repeatedly is a really good way to learn the different game types.

I detailed my RC "drilling" in earlier comments, but basically I learned RC while doing PTs. In retrospect, I think there are better ways to practice. One of them is reading media that are of a similar length. In particular, I recommend ScienceNews. They use the EXACT same format as the LSAT in their writeups (I wouldn't be surprised if LSAC took their writeups actually), so that provides good practice for the science sections.

Let me know if I can provide any additional information or clarity, and good luck!

@chloep983997 said:

Hello! Thank you for the advice! I wanted to ask how many times a day you studied?

Sorry for the delayed reply! Early on, I would just spend as much time as I could going through the 7Sage curriculum. I would shoot to get 8-10 hours in a day I think, though a lot of that had breaks and I would play solitaire (with real cards--phones distract you) as I listened to JY talk through lessons--especially if it was stuff I had heard before. Doing the extra activity was actually super helpful for me to remain focused, because it was low-key enough to keep me focused on the lectures, but also engaging enough to not make me bored and zone out.

Later on--essentially, when I started taking practice tests most days of the week--I developed more of a routine. I would wake up early and drive my girlfriend to work while she quizzed me on LSAT flashcards (what groups logical indicators belong in, logical fallacies, argument types, some LG tips... I just used the "Studies" app to make a flashcard whenever JY mentioned something). I would then go back to sleep for a few hours. I am NOT a morning person, so I would start my day off for real walking my puppy and getting coffee in the late morning, then doing either LG foolproofing or watching the curriculum/doing drills for maybe an hour or two. I would then go to my office (grad school at the time... but sorta on the way out by that point and therefore focusing almost entirely on the LSAT), warm up for maybe 15 minutes, and then take a full exam (four sections--I know others say to do five but honestly I would rather save the sections. On test day, you'll have the adrenaline to get through it). I would then do a blind review for LR and head back home, where I would redo the games real quick. I would then take care of other work until my girlfriend would come home, at which point I would make dinner while she read the RC sections to me out loud and I did the questions verbally (also a huge help--and she would then tell me if I had changed an answer. OH--and I had to justify my reasoning to her for every answer, which was a HUGE way for me to improve). Then we would eat, and then I would hit submit on my blind review, go over the answers (maybe "obsess" over the answers is the correct term), and then rinse/repeat the next day.

That was a pretty intensive amount of time to spend every day, and that certainly won't work for everyone--I was super privileged to be in a position with grad school where that was feasible for me. But maybe it can serve as a bit of a model to think of ways to leverage your lifestyle into a study habit.

Hope that helps!

@alettacooke201162 said:

As someone with a lot of takes considering retake, how many takes did you finally have and scores in them? What were you scores in individual sections of Jul 2019 take? Was it CBT?

Sorry for not replying sooner! I don't check 7Sage as often as I would like (sadly).

I ended up doing five takes. Cancel (2014), 166 (early 2015), low160s (20...16?), 166 (2017? Hard to remember---which shows how little I prepared), and then 175 in Jul 2019.

Unfortunately, the test was undisclosed, so I have no idea how I did on each section. It actually bothers me--I don't want to sound overconfident, but I honestly walked out that day feeling super confident, and only had one LR question I felt kinda iffy on. I finished LG with about 10 minutes to go, caught the ~3 curveballs they threw in there, and felt good about the section, so I don't think I missed any there. RC had traditionally been my weakest section, so my guess is I maybe missed something there?

I'm not sure what CBT means, but I am happy to answer that if you clarify! Hope studying is going well and good luck--I know it's a hard situation a year into the pandemic, but by even studying a bit you're doing a great job!

@audieya977 said:

When did you get admitted? Are you starting the 20-21 L1 class or 21-22. I guess I am just perplexed by the timing of your announcement. When was your 175 LSAT score, was it one of the flex administrations?

I am starting 20-21, so in three weeks. I was a waitlist admit so I am a bit late to the party on the whole knowing where I am going for school part. I got my 175 in July 2019, so a while back. I didn't apply until late in the cycle though because I had some publications pending that I wanted finalized before I sent my app in. I think, on balance, an earlier app with an LOCI would have been the better route (though that's less relevant for Yale is my impression).

@alettacooke201162 said:

how many total official takes and at which specific times? does someone taking 6-7 times affect result at HYS?

I took five official takes. late 2014 (cancel), early 2015, then twice in 2016-2017 (don't remember the exact dates to be honest), and then the July 2019 exam was when I hit the 175.

Honestly, I think five takes affects results at HYS. It's always better to have few takes. So my primary advice would be: don't take it unless you are ready, and don't make the mistakes I did. That being said, if you already have made the "mistake" of taking it that many times, and your score still isn't what you want, having a significantly higher score (i.e. more than 4 points so that its outside the margin of error) with an extra take is probably worth it.

I would say don't take the test unless you are consistently scoring around the number you want, since luck essentially plays no part in a 100 question test. I would certainly not go above three or four takes, and after five you're reaching really dangerous territory. Again, it's a balancing act of figuring out what is most beneficial for you. If you want to go to HYS and are getting mid-160s, it's going to be tough. They would probably prefer a 170+ with an extra take. Every situation is different though!

I also believe the rules are changing eventually to cap how many takes you can do (though COVID suspended the change? I sorta stopped following the LSAT as closely when I got my score a year ago). Good luck and let me know if I can be of help!

@rdelltownsel637 said:

Congratulations! Thank you for sharing. Once you identified your weaknesses, how long did it take you to improve on them? And how? Did you go back to Core Curriculum / revisit general background on those question stems, rewatch JY work through examples on video, or just do & review as many of those questions as possible in Problem Sets?

It honestly depended on the question type. It took me forever to get better at sufficient and necessary assumptions. I know for most people they are low-hanging fruit, but for me I always had a rough time with them.

Thanks for the well wishes. I would save CC drill sections (if those are still in the course? I know some changes have happened since I took the test in 2019) and return to them when I needed to review a section. I would also drill flash cards in the AM to go over both the thought process of how to approach a question type, and whatever relevant information was related to that question (e.g. the different groupings for conditional logic, the valid and invalid argument forms, et cetera). I would watch a few of the JY videos again, but I mostly would just spend 30-60 minutes working on something that I was either flagging as being difficult (or just getting wrong), or that was taking too much time on the test.

I can't emphasize how important it is to look at how long a question type typically takes you. It's such a helpful resource for improving on the test.

Good luck and let me know if I can answer any other questions!

Thanks everyone! Still doesn't feel real. Happy to answer any questions people might have (most have been DMing me but I can also answer questions here so others might benefit if you want--happy with either option).

I got in in 2015 as a late-cycle applicant with a 166 and a similar GPA. Think you have a solid shot! Feel free to message me if I can help though!

I’ve done this and was re-accepted. Just explain the financial situation. Maybe say something like “after speaking to X in the admissions office and learning that it might be more affordable this year, I waited and am re-applying. I want to come to your school.” (Word it better than that but you get the idea).

There wasn’t a court proceeding (I presume?) and you were not found guilty of a felony or misdemeanor. I think you’re all good not reporting it!

I took the January 2015 LSAT (might have been Feb?) and used it to be accepted to T14s that cycle. The only school that wouldn’t accept the score was Stanford. Good luck and I hope that helps!

So I'm in the "taking the LSAT too many times" boat now. I had some bad luck before with the tests, with just a host of things going wrong on test day, and knowing I never hit my stride. I cancelled post-test December of 2015 (had a bubble sheet error that cost me an entire section), then took the test again Feb 2016 and used that score that cycle to get into seven T14 schools with a 166. I declined those offers to pursue a PhD with the intention of going back to do the JD. I wanted more money though, so I took the test again in Dec 2016 (163--oops) and again Oct 2017 (166--I knew I could do better). I applied again to a T14 which had previously accepted me and where I was doing my PhD last March, on literally the last day of the cycle, and was re-accepted. I declined (they must want to kill me) to move with my partner to a different state so she could pursue med school. I just took the July 2019 LSAT and hit a 175, and am now applying to the local university as well as two that are about an hour away (all T14).

I know having multiple LSATs on your record isn't great, but on the other hand I've been accepted with two, four, and now hopefully five on my record, with some good scores mixed in there. I think that the weight schools put on your highest available LSAT score is the most important factor to consider, rather than the number of tries. You'll want to explain why you have so many on there, but at the end of the day the school only has to report your highest score for ranking, so they will always be happier if you have a higher rank. Just my two cents, but in the balance, if you KNOW you can do better, I would go for it.

However, to echo what @jonguy569 said, hold off until you're roughly where you want to be. There are now limits on how often you can take it that used to be less restrictive. Maximize those opportunities, and hopefully you'll only need to take the exam once.

Schools don’t average your scores anymore—at least, according to admissions directors who have done interviews—so there isn’t much harm in keeping it as backup. If you get sick, or have a bad test day experience, it’s nice knowing this is in your back pocket.

I got into 7 T14s in 2015 with a 166, and I applied late (pursues other grad school options instead so reapplying now with a better score). I know you want the money, so def retake if you can, but keep this as a “just in case” backup score! The worst thing that can happen is that you end up using this score and still get in anyway, so there is no cost to doing so.

You should be in good shape for NYU. I got into NYU four years ago (pursued a PhD instead) with a 166 and applying late. I imagine that a 173 will be plenty. If memory serves, you can also explain the GPA situation on the application. Good luck and congrats on the great score!

Scores are confirmed as up. FINALLY beat my dream score by two points. I hope everyone got what they are hoping for!

Flagging this because the rule changed recently (at least, I think it changed recently? This is def the rule and I did it for the July 2019 LSAT), but you’re allowed to bring coffee/soda into the test center now. Just in case you prefer that form of caffeine. Just has to be in a plastic container.

I also make sure to move during the break. If I can run up and down stairs, I do that. I usually eat a cliff bar nut butter energy bar during the break— I find it keeps me energized. I’ve also found that on actual test day the adrenaline keeps me much more awake than usual!

Earlier is always better. However, I applied four years ago as a joint JD-PhD, so my apps took a bit longer to complete, and I technically only applied in March with a feb LSAT score. I think I applied to 10 of the T14 and got into about half of them, so it’s certainly feasible to apply later. I also reapplied this past March to a T14 I had been accepted to and had declined in 2015 (I ended up just doing straight PhD work instead the last four years) and got re-accepted, so it can happen. It’s not a recommended strategy but it can work. Good luck!

The good news (as others have alluded to before) is that the section you are struggling on is the "easiest" to improve. I would go with the foolproofing method and tweak it to your needs. For me, I used PTs 1-20, and would randomly select which LG I would do (e.g. would do PT3 S1 Game 2, then PT1 S4 Game 3, et cetera). I would do 16 games in a row without a break, just noting how long each one took. This was a way to build stamina. I would then go back and note what I got wrong/right, and would think through how to handle more difficult situations. It got me to a -0 average for LG, from a -8ish situation when I started 7Sage. Congrats on crushing the other sections so far!

Yes, because otherwise I find that I cannot sleep!

I take the test around 1ish (12:30pm test prep time but the test never actually starts then), I'll take an hour or so break after, then do LG (easy and quick, warms me up again), then do the two LR sections (maybe 90 minutes for the two combined?), and then my girlfriend reads the RC section to me while I do the dishes and clean up from dinner, and I answer the questions. I actually found that that was by far the best way to improve my RC section--might be worth exploring if you have someone willing to invest the time with you!

I had the same issue. Big night owl, could hit the 170s on PTs but got mid 160s for the morning tests (never took the 12:30 until the July 2019 test for some reason). Taking the 12:30 was a huge help, end-of. You can try to train it, but if your biological clock is working against you, I say delay and take the October test which is at 12:30. For me, it's a 7-8 point difference probably. 100% worth it, even if you have to use a vacation day for it or something.