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# Logic Games : [Never Together/Always Together] v. [Not Both] Rule Confusion

Alum Member
edited March 2017 123 karma

Hello,

During In-Out Games, I am consistently getting confused between the Not Both Rule and the Biconditional (Always Together/Never Together) Rule. I am aware of the fundamentals, but get quite confused when the wording is sometimes difficult to fully grasp the meaning.

For instance, in PT29 S3 Game 1, the second rule states "Bill 1 cannot be paid on the same day as Bill 5."
In PT26 S1 Game 4, the first rule states "Gibson and Vega do not serve on the panel in the same year as each other."

Both look quite identical, and I initially incorrectly interpreted the first statement as a Not Both, and the second statement as a Never Together. So my questions are:

1) Can anyone explain why the first statement is a Never Together while the second one is a Not Both?

2) I was wondering if anyone had some advice on how to quickly determine a rule as a [Not Both Rule] or a [Never together/always apart Rule], especially under timed conditions.

• Alum Member
edited March 2017 2426 karma

"PT29 S3 Game 1, the second rule states "Bill 1 cannot be paid on the same day as Bill 5."

The reason this is a A <-> B is bc all 7 bills have to appear on either Wednesday or Thursday exactly once. Then they tell us 1 and 5 cannot be paid (appear) together, combining the previous rule, we know it's a forever apart Bi-conditional, for 1 and 5 both have to appear, but not together.

PT26 S1 Game 4, the first rule states "Gibson and Vega do not serve on the panel in the same year as each other."

The reason this is a A -> B is bc there is an actual "out" category (not serving), meaning G and V could actually be both "out" the rule per se.

I do understand your confusion completely, and it's kinda hard to explain the subtle difference. Any game that fits in restriction of all games pieces must be used exactly once, between exactly two groups is essentially an in/out game. Then there are subtle differences in the design of the games, such as ones are "literally" in/out "by definition", meaning there is actually an "out" category. Or ones are disguised yet conforming to the signature in/out rules, like first example above. In that case, there is not really a quote on quote "out" category, meaning "not be paid", (we only see Thursday as "out" for the sake of notating rules) so we can't really say "not both in", cuz "in" where? It's just 7 bills being paid "exactly" once between "exactly two days", whereas the second example is a traditional sense of an in/out, which means we are actually selecting the game pieces to be "in or out". Therefore G or V could actually be both "out".

The reason it's beneficial for us to see thru games conforming to in/out is first of all to reduce the "shock effect" cuz in/out games are relatively cookie cutter so we know we aren't dealing with something weird. Secondly it's easier to notate rules once we know it's an in/out therefore easier to split later. For example, to me, notating rules as A -> B in a disguised boat 1/2 in/out game is much more visually representative than A1 -> B2. When I see the former, I know immediately one of A or B or both will have to be out (in boat 2), which I could just write it in on the board as penitential basis to split later. But when I see the latter, I don't really know what that means right away, I'll have to convert it in my head only then to realize it's just a damn A -> B rule. I'm still not great with games so to me mental conversion takes time, a thing I desperately need under timed condition, then why would I make myself go thru that mental contortion when I didn't have to, you see what I mean? Especially with contrapositives, if not B2, then it's not A1, but what does not B2, not A1 mean? it really means if it's B1 then implies A2...yeah, screw that. A -> B That's it.

This is a very good question cuz it's really hard to organize my thoughts and turn them into human language, so I hope I have not confused you more. I think I would just pay extra attention to the wording of games when sensing it's an in/out. If it says 7 bills must be paid exactly once between exactly 2 days, and 1 & 5 cannot paid together in the same day, then it's forever apart Bi-conditional, as they can't be just not paid in a true sense of being "out". If it's a traditional sense of in/out where we are actually selecting things to be in and out, and it says 1 & 5 can't serve (in) together, that means at least one of 1 or 5 has to be out (actually out) or both could be out: A -> B. Okay, I'll stop here cuz I'm just going in circles now lol I hope this could be of any help.

• Alum Member
123 karma

@"Heart Shaped Box" Hello! Thanks for your comment. Before you explained this to me, that subtle difference of a "true" In-Out Game versus an In-Out Game for "convenience" hadn't really popped into my mind! Thank you for pointing that out for me So, would you say that the best way to recognize a Never Together from a Not Both Rule is to quickly understand the dynamics of the game (whether it is a "true" In-Out game or not, etc.)? I would love to hear some more advice on how one can quickly differentiate between the two types!

• Alum Member
edited March 2017 2426 karma

Well, I don't know what would be the "best way", but for me personally is to understand the dynamics of the game and the rules. If I know all games pieces have to "appear" exactly once between exactly 2 groups, and the rule says A and B cannot appear together, then it's a A <---> B, bc they both have to "appear" but not together. In the same scenario, if I know one of the two groups is an actual "out" slot, meaning not selected, not served, not paid, etc, and the rule says A and B cannot be "in" together (selected/served/paid) then it's a A ---> B bc we are actually saying they cannot be both "in".

For that bills paying game, if it were to say we are paying (selecting) "exactly 3/4" out 7 bills between Wednesday and Thursday, and 1 & 5 cannot be paid (selected) together, then it's a 1 ---> 5 bc one of the categories is an actual "out" slot (not paid).

But if it were to say we are paying (selecting) "all 7 bills" between exactly two days Wednesday and Thursday, and 1 & 5 cannot be paid (appear) together, then it's a A <---> B bc we are paying them all (all appear), nobody is not paid, and 1 & 5 just can't be paid (appear) together.

I would pull out all in/out games under 7sage Q bank and compare the similarities and differences between traditional in/out games and the disguised ones, as the only "best" way to distinguish them is by actually doing them.

Hope this helped and keep us posted on your progress!