What is your Logic Games Strategy for "naked questions"

vanessa fisher

Hey Sagers,
This is a question for those of you who have been doing LG for a while. I'm trying to perfect my timing for LG through slight method and strategy changes.

Was hoping to just get some insight on different ways people approach "naked" questions on the LG section. Most notably "must be true", "could be true", etc. that leave a lot of open-ended options. I have a few random strategies I employ for these questions but no systematic approach. I always do all the "if" questions first so I can write out my gameboards and use those to potentially answer naked questions after, and that is helpful. But I also feel there are other strategies I could be employing for the naked questions. I often can get stuck on them because I feel overwhelmed and end up wasting a few precious moments.

I have come to realize that when I feel stuck, best thing is to just start brute forcing through, which is sometimes all you can do, but just wondering if people had other strategies for naked questions? This is just the last leg for me trying to make subtle shifts in strategy so that I can get the LG section in time and hopefully leave myself with a little extra time to do those horrible substitute condition questions

I feel confident in my ability to do LG and nearly always score perfect under untimed conditions, but still struggling to get them done in time under timed conditions without rushing at the end.

Thanks for any tips on naked questions if you have them!

Alex

@"vanessa fisher"

When my previous work can't help me on naked MBT questions, the first thing I do is look for possible CBF answers. Usually checking out any floater pieces is a good place to start since they likely don't have to go anywhere in particular. If anything, I'll put a little tilde next to any floaters and check those last. I find that often the answer to global MBT questions are solved by looking for an additional unstated inference. So look closely back at your rules for a second and see if you catch anything that may push out an inference from your remaining answer choices.
Lastly, check for any 2 answers that are contrapositives of each other. Obviously they can't both be true, so they're both wrong.

I find that if I do all of these things I can either find the answer or I'm left with 1-2 to just brute force.

Paul Caint

For could be true questions, I think you have to just brute through unless there are some inferences in your diagram limiting where things can go .

For must be true questions, I just draw out a hypothetical without really considering the ACs.

For example, if the question asks: "If L is in the 3rd spot, then which must be true?"

I draw out a hypothetical: E M L P O

ACs say:
"E must be second." Obviously not.
"O must be third." Obviously not.
etc.

You may have to draw out more hypotheticals to remove things, but usually your first hypothetical can remove a lot of wrong ACs.

vanessa fisher

great tips @"Alex Divine" and @"Paul Caint"
The contrapositive rule is a good one to remember. That if one works, the other also works, so if they are both in the answer choice they can't be the MBT.

And yeah making hypothetical boards is what I tend to do. It can sometimes take more time than I like, but then again, having extra hypothetical boards can always possibly help in other questions.

Thanks for your thoughts

Alex

@"vanessa fisher" said:
great tips @"Alex Divine" and @"Paul Caint"
The contrapositive rule is a good one to remember. That if one works, the other also works, so if they are both in the answer choice they can't be the MBT.

And yeah making hypothetical boards is what I tend to do. It can sometimes take more time than I like, but then again, having extra hypothetical boards can always possibly help in other questions.

Thanks for your thoughts

Of course! Just remember to be strategic when you are forced to try out certain answer choices. I tend to follow my intuitions with deciding which one to try first. For example, if I'm left with 3 answer choices are they all share a game piece, then no need to try that game piece. Little things like that will save you valuable time!

AllezAllez21

So I think brute forcing isn't necessarily a bad thing. If you are fast at it then you can get there.

The key to these questions is your initial set up and your ability to see the underlying pressure points in the game. If you've got a great set up, either through splitting or just through deriving the key inferences of the game, then usually these questions can be answered.

If there is an open ended set up, then you've got to be good at bringing rules together and seeing their pressure points. By pressure points, I mean things like limited slots in a group, rules that interfere with each other, a game piece that can only go in one or two spots, a game piece that really doesn't like the other pieces. This isn't really a satisfying answer, because it's basically like "see the depths of the game in your mind," which is really hard, but it's true. During practice, you might take a bit of extra time at the beginning of the game to look for those pressure points and develop your intuition of the game.

Edit: I will add another key skill to CBT questions is to realize how to make rules irrelevant. People get paralyzed by rules, but if you satisfy the necessary or fail the sufficient, then the rule goes away. That's entirely valid when you are trying to make a CBT scenario.

TheMikey

Well I already told you my strategy so I won't write a long response haha

but just a summary: I use my previously drawn game boards from the IF questions to eliminate AC's and then whatever AC's remain I just work them out. If it's a MBT question, try to falsify each AC to see if that AC in fact does not have to be true, for example. If it's a CBT, I don't try to falsify anything, I just plug in whatever the AC says to see if it in fact CBT.

OlamHafuch

If you need to brute force, it means that you are missing some inference. Getting better at making inferences up front is the key. As Mike Kim of LSAT Trainer says, you should not have to use hypotheticals more than once or twice per section. Of course, if someone is as quick at brute forcing as J.Y. they can brute force these questions and still finish them all under time.

OlamHafuch

The reason why the section is constructed in such a way that it is hard to finish in time with brute forcing is that what's being tested is not really your ability to brute force, but your ability to make inferences. You are rewarded for making all the inferences up front and not having to rely on brute forcing.

vanessa fisher

@AllezAllez21 you totally hit the issue on the nail for me. I feel the thing I struggle with is "seeing" the game in a deeper way ahead of time. It's definitely coming over time with doing so many fricking games, but it isn't intuitive to me at a deep level. LG is my weakest section by far. RC is my best section. I do feel I'm starting to get to the place where I'm seeing more ahead of time, but mostly I have to have visual clues and split gameboards to get the inferences and sometimes that means taking more time to answer a MBT or CBT. I marvel at how J.Y does these questions sometimes without writing down much. I'm definitely not at that level but I'll keep working to see these things upfront in my review. Thanks

@TheMikey yes, doing the "if" questions first definitely helps. I was thinking more specifically for ones where you get a lot of CBT and MBT and not many if questions and when there isn't much of a split of gameboard you can make upfront. This sometimes happens and it can stall me a bit. But yeah, even within games where there are "if" questions I can sometimes get stalled on CBT and MBT. Thanks for the tips!

@uhinberg I think there are times when it is appropriate to brute force (I've seen J.Y do it), but I agree it isn't the ideal. I see some of the inferences up front, but not all the time and not consistently and I also get really nervous in LG cause it is my weakest section so I sometimes just can't see the larger picture cause I'm nervous and I just have to stick to visual cues. Working on this though with my meditation practice

OlamHafuch

@"vanessa fisher" Right. Even J.Y. does not get all the inferences. His ability to brute force at supersonic speed, though, is almost superhuman, so he can afford to miss some inferences and still be super fast.

OlamHafuch

@"vanessa fisher" There certainly is nothing wrong with brute forcing, and it is the best plan of attack sometimes. I was just saying that time issues are to be expected if brute forcing is a major part of one's LG attack, unless one practices to a point where he is ridiculously fast.

TheMikey

@"vanessa fisher" said:
@TheMikey yes, doing the "if" questions first definitely helps. I was thinking more specifically for ones where you get a lot of CBT and MBT and not many if questions and when there isn't much of a split of gameboard you can make upfront. This sometimes happens and it can stall me a bit. But yeah, even within games where there are "if" questions I can sometimes get stalled on CBT and MBT. Thanks for the tips!

ahh I see.

Well typically for games like those where most questions are just MBT, CBT, etc. since I don't really solve for all possibilities up front, I just go about each question and try out each AC. it's time consuming, yes, but if you're fast enough it can be a fast process. you can do little tricks as well, but I wouldn't call them tricks I guess, but like just moving on and not checking the rest of the AC's when you diagram an AC and it fits well.

Also, instead of drawing out a whole game board for some AC's, you can just look at the rules and work some simpler AC's out in your head. it's hard to do if you're not used to it I guess, but this is what I do sometimes and I guess it just comes with having done a crap ton of logic games.

vanessa fisher

@uhinberg yes that makes sense. Being able to brute force fast is a great skill. But J.Y is definitely on another level

@TheMikey yeah I think some of this is just about practice over and over again and getting my nerves under control. I'm definitely getting better and seeing more the more I do. I'm at that last stretch and was looking for any more potential tricks to save me some time I think it should be fine, but all these tips are really helpful for the more subtle things that can save a few seconds