'Even without'

yeshesvini

'even without' does not seem to follow our group 3 indicator rules....

Ella can pass even without giving her presentation

Using Group 3 rules I came up with /pass --> give ppt

but that doesn't make any sense....what the sentence is really trying to say is not ( pass ---> ppt ) which amounts to pass and /ppt

very diff to mechanically following group 3 rules....

thinking harder about this and it doesn't matter whether it is without or even without group 3 logic doesn't hold nonetheless...

am i missing something here??

NotMyName

Approaching translations mechanically is a great way to learn in the beginning, but we also need to consider what the meaning of the sentence actually is. For example, the sentence you've given is not a conditional statement. "even without giving her presentation" is just a throw away statement which has no bearing on whether or not Ella can pass. The meaning of that sentence is simply "Ella can pass and whether or not she gives her presentation has no bearing on that fact". And since these two ideas have no relationship, there is no conditionality to map out.

thinking harder about this and it doesn't matter whether it is without or even without group 3 logic doesn't hold nonetheless...

I see what you are saying here (I think). If we removed the "even" so that we just had "ella can pass without giving her presentation" that leaves the meaning unchanged and the above still applies. However it's not true that that's the case with all group3 translations. For example, "Ella can pass unless she gives her presentation" That translates to "If Ella can't pass then she will give her presentation" EP-->GP.

English is messy and slight alterations to a sentence can totally change the meaning as we've done here. I hope this helps!

yeshesvini

thank u soo much!!

got stuck on this while doing PT 37 section 2 qs 3.....such an easy qs and easy to do....but for some reason i tried to map the embedded conditionals and got trapped akin to going down alice's hole....am getting stuck on every qs that has without in its sentence structures since....mental knot that refuses to dissolve....could you please help with reference to the embedded logic in this qs...

However it's not true that that's the case with all group3 translations. For example, "Ella can pass unless she gives her presentation" That translates to "If Ella can't pass then she will give her presentation" EP-->GP.> ....

did you mean this has to be /EP-->GP....typo?? confused....maybe its just my mental state about this whole thing....> > >

NotMyName

did you mean this has to be /EP-->GP....typo?? confused....maybe its just my mental state about this whole thing....> > >

Ahh yes. it was a typo. you understood me correctly. /EP-->GP