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Related Discussions
Beyond Frustrated with Logic Games
stephenharrelson08
Free Trial Member
As you can probably tell from my tone, i’m extremely frustrated with the logic games section. I’ve been practing for 7 months now and have seen very little improvement. I’m taking around 13:30-14:30 minutes to finsih an AVERAGE level game. I’ve read through the LG Bible once, and i’ve gone back and reread several of the chapters at least twice now. I’ve been doing the foolproof method for 3 months, and my timing has barely decreased on new games. My study schedule is as follows: Monday (basic linear), Tuesday (advanced linear), and Wedneaday (grouping). Each one of these days I do one new game 6 times and then do it once more the next day. After doing it several times, I see things like inferences I didn’t the first time and end up completely understanding the game (and therefore my time decreases each tome I do it). I’ve learned that a lot of games can basically be solved up front by realizing how key, limited infernces can limit the number of possible boards, etc; this helps my timing a lot when i’m able to do it. However, i’m still not seeing the progress I need. I need a solid 162 for my top school. I’m almost where I need to be on LR and RC, but i’m just not improving on LG. I would absolutely hate for this section to keep me from my goal.
Comments
What's your accuracy like? Keep up the practicing. I think you're going to get better.
Accuracy is decent. At most I might miss one or two. On many I go -0.
That is indeed my goal! This whole time i’ve been aiming at getting 18-19 correct for LG at the bare minimum, which would be 3 games and maybe a lucky guess on the last game. The problem is, I can complete only 2 games in the 35 right now, and maybe 2 on the 3rd game. The timing is what I’ve always struggled with... maybe I just don’t have the IQ points for this stuff, but its always taken me a while
I can definitely say it doesn't have anything to do with IQ points
I knew someone in medical school that didn't know how to make toast...And i just chalk it up to him not having the skill set to properly make toast. But with enough practice he did get it. I like @Rtwrtw8 comment about strategies for developing inferences, which is what I struggle with too; how to develop the strategies for any game, rather than the one you're working on. Keep at it and it will click eventually!
When you foolproof, what do you do?
For games where you may not have alot of inferences, check answer choices that you think would create a limited set of scenarios If you go through JY's explanations, he doesnt always verify answer choices in a random way. You will get this game sense after enough practice. Many high scorers in 7Sage actually took longer than 7 months to perfect games so don't despair. It took me a little over a year to go from getting minus 9 minus 10 to minus 1.
Here’s my stradegy on a brand new game:
I know in advance what type it will be, because as I mentioned earlier, I want to perfect each type as much as possible and do them on different days
- Quickly count the number of variables
- slap out a basic model of the game board
- go through the rules one at a time, checking to see how each interacts with the game board and what I can deduce based on the previous inferences
- After going through all of them, I look for any, or any combination of rules that will allow me to set up a number of complete game boards, which is basically doing all the work up front and I can just refer back to any of the various boards for each questions. This works on MOST games. I call this process “hacking,” and I’ve noticed that the instructor here on 7sage pretty much does the same thing. So far, i’ve been doing this for 6 weeks and have come across two games that, as confirmed by the videos here on 7Sage, this stradgey would not have worked and brute forcing answers is basically required
It may help to redo games you feel you have mastered a week later as well as a day later. Doing them a week later helps to reinforce games I've already aced and makes sure I really know what I am doing since several days have passed instead of just a full day.
My 2 cents on LG's is to prioritizes understanding the implications of each rule and spend enough time with each rule until you have them memorized. I like to do more thinking than drawing game boards. When I see an obvious split, I do it. If I don't, I hit the conditional questions first, then the global ones. The reason I mention this is because it greatly improved my speed on LG's and I think I'm probably slower than most on here. Keep practicing!
How many complete game boards are you making? And are you potentially drawing out multiple complete game boards of information that could be succinctly communicated with just one, if diagrammed differently?
I ask because I used to struggle with LG a lot and, for me, once I knew how all the basic game types worked, it was overdiagramming that really slowed down my times for a while. Learning how to diagram just enough was what took me the most practice.
I make as many boards as I feel that I need to, because I usally end up making them on various questions anyways. It helps me go through the questions easier.
I have grown to absolutely HATE logic games with a passion. If anything keeps me out of law school, it will be this stinking section. I have a 3.8 GPA, i’m almost where I need to be with LR and RC, but this section has barely improved in 8 long months. I’ve tried powerscore’s bible, and i’ve been foolproofijg for a long while. But week after week its nothing but frustration and disapointment. I’m slow and freeze up on two many games. I can’t stand having to keep track of so much information as once. Its hard to stay optimistic when its nothing but failure week after week. Today is Wednesday, and I just completed my last game of the week... finshed in over 15 minutes and questions missed. More and more frustration.
How is your understanding of logic? What do you think prevents you from doing games in a timely matter? Fool proofing does not work without a strong foundation in logic.
Also, have you seen videos of people taking LG sections? If not, I will figure out a way to share a video of myself doing a LG section (I'll have to blur the LSAT questions and I don't know if I can....)
And @"Cant Get Right" will be hosting a webinar on Logic Games soon, so make sure to check that one out!
Maybe mastering one type of game first would be better. For instance, you could work only on basic linear sequencing games until you can get those done in a better time. Then add in advanced linear games. Then learn in/out and then grouping and so on.
If you are going into them already knowing what type of problem you are working on you might as well master one game type before moving on to the others.
I wouldn't use the logic games bible much now that you are using the 7sage explanations. They don't always use the same approach which could be confusing.
I understand logic pretty well; as i’ve already said, i’ve read through the LG bible and the LR bible. This has given me a pretty good understanding of If/then logic. Understanding such rules is never an issue. Again... i’m not a beginner at this. I understand how to diagram rules, I know how to set up games of different types... my problem is not because I lack a basic understadning; i’ve been doing his for months. I have issues trying to juggle all of the information thrown at me at once; the more variables and rules, the worse I do. Thats why, if possible, I try to set up games as complete as possible up front.
I'm exactly in the same boat as you. Sometimes I ask myself if I am not in over my head with stuff. But as others have said, I believe working at it consistently and diligently will make the difference. I feel you with respect to the frustration. But I have learnt to adjust my expectation with LG. I realize I may never be able to do as well as I want, so I focus on getting the best out of RC and LR. If I am able to complete three games on the LG, hopefully I will be able to achieve my goal of low 160s. This way I can keep my blood pressure low enough to keep working on improving on the LG!lol
I can relate. Foolproofing games has been a real struggle for me. I've completed over 2,000 attempts across many of the sets. But success here is almost certainly a function of time and not capability. It's a matter of taking what you are already familiar with and converting that familiarity into expertise.
Over time you will develop mental schema shared by categories of games such that you will be able to complete almost all of the cognitive processing unconsciously thereby freeing up your working memory to focus on the details of a LG that are specific to that game. This is how one becomes an expert. In a given game, 80% of the details are common to some category of games (linear, grouping, etc). When you become an expert (fool proofed), that 80% is handled by mental processes you've developed over time and you are free to focus (consciously) on the remaining 20%. That's why you are experiencing this data-overload. You're unconscious LG processes haven't become powerful enough yet. The difference between you and someone who is going -0 in 25 minutes, is that they only need to focus on 20% of the material they are given.
Unfortunately there are no shortcuts. As I said, it's a function of time not capability. You graduated with a 3.8 gpa so you're quite capable of going -2/3 I'm sure of it. You just need more practice.
As others have mentioned, I highly recommend repeating games every few weeks/months. Keeping track of your times/scores is also helpful. Keep notes of what you screwed up or inferences you continue to miss. Hang in there and just keep drilling.
I agree with this. I think you should stay away from LG Bible if you are "foolproofing" using 7Sage explanations. For example, PowerScore uses things like "Double-not Arrow" ("A <--|--> B"), which is "Not both rule" (A --> /B). "Double-not Arrow" ("A <--|--> B") isn't the same as the Bi-conditional ("A <--> / B" ) relationship. For me, understanding "Either or rule" (/A --> B ), "Not both rule" (A --> /B), and Bi-conditional ("A <--> /B") rule is crucial for doing well on LG.
Yea where is the post that talks about this ?i don't want to miss it!
It hasn't been posted yet!
Coming soon, I promise!!
I have to echo a few of the others on the LG bible. I read through that whole thing first, and I did improve a bit on games. But I ended up really confused and I feel like it didn't give good strategies especially on how to chain conditionals together. I would end up with like a whole page of just random conditionals and their contrapositives, but didn't fully understand how they all related to each other.
It looks like you don't have a 7sage course. If it's financially possible, I would really highly recommend signing up for at least the Starter course. The lessons are really so much more in depth and help a ton on top of the free videos.
Another option I think might benefit you is a tutor. Since you have been studying a while and seem to have fundamentals down, it might be more helpful to have someone watch you as you process through a game and help you work through it to see what you may be missing up front. There's a thread around here with a tutor list and they are different pricing but very affordable. It might help to even just have 1 or 2 sessions to just work through some road blocks.
Getting better at LG is about taking strategies that work for you from any source you can find. Don't discriminate on something just because it's not 7sage, for example. If you find something that works, make it part of your approach. Discriminate on the effectiveness of your approach above all else.
This test is so psychological. Be self-aware. For example, on LG, try to be aware of why you represent certain rules in a certain way. Ask yourself, are my rules consistent? Do I fully understand my rules? Can I more efficiently represent them? Is my board efficient? What else can I do with my rules/boards to enhance my understanding of this game?
I'm a big fan of untimed work, honestly.
None of this “advice” is helping. So can someone please just point me in the right direction for a LG tutor? I’m willing to fork over the money at this point
Here is a list of 7Sage's approved tutors:
https://7sage.com/discussion/#/discussion/4760/7sages-approved-tutors/p1
@stephenharrelson08, Here's another thing, not exactly advice on LG, but it applies: Have faith in yourself. Things are going to get better. There are many students who wouldn't necessarily write about a struggle and the fact that you did is awesome. It's probably the case that many people have similar questions to yours and might've been too afraid to ask so you've done a great service by talking about these struggles and I hope your candor will inspire more posts like this. Trust the process and hit reset. We're in a new week now. It's going to be a good one.
Its been 8 months of having “faith in myself” and I haven’t gotten anywhere hardly. Going to a crappy third tier law school is not worth it. I looked into it and most (70+%) of their graduates are unemployed after 6 months and the top 75% of those that are make something like 68,000 per year. The median os 50,000. Counting the temendous amount of loans, that’s practically living on a public school teacher’s salary. I have to at least get into a second tier school if I want to fufull my dream of being a lawyer
I think this is a healthy approach to the prospect of law school attendance. There is no reason not to bump up that LSAT before you go to school, assuming you have the time and resources.
@stephenharrelson08
I would suggest that you video record yourself taking an LG section, upload it to YouTube (unlisted), and ask one of the tutors to take a look. It's hard to know what you are struggling with without actually looking at how you are performing.
I know you are frustrated, but please be mindful that everyone here is trying to help. Whether you like the answer or not, they were trying to help.