Retake disaster/need help from a mod..

James Dean

So I have now taken the LSAT 3 times, and I'm beyond frustrated. I took the LSAT for the first time OCT, 2013 after 6 months of study self-study and a 7Sage course. This first round I was studying at least 5 hours per day. At that time I was PT scoring in the high 160's and low 170's. However, I scored a 161. [RC -8, LG -1, LR 1&2 -16 (bombed LR)]

I decided to wait and reconsider law school. I decided to take the LSAT again December 2014, and after 3 months of less intensive studying (I felt I burnt out the first time) I was PTing again in the high 160's and low 170's. However, I scored a 161! I couldn't believe it. (RC -7, LG -9, LR 1&2 -10). I failed in games and knew it during the test. I neglected it as the easy section as I never had a problem with it.

So, I studied games intensively and retook it in February. Bit of a panic leading up to this test: Had a flat tire on my BMW (no spare) half way to the test center 40 miles away, thought I was going to miss the test, was able to get there 5 minutes late and still get in, and then someone got kicked out for cheating which caused a scene. However, I scored a 161!

How is that even possible three 161's?!

Should I give up? Literally give up on my dreams of going to a top law school? I can't improve my RC as it always lands around -7 to -10, I get my LR to around -2 or -3 per section while PTing, and get my LG to -0 while PTing. But I'm cursed with this 161.

bonjoursm

Have you applied to any schools? A 161 should get you into many good schools, maybe even with a small scholarship, as long as your GPA isn't terrible. Possibly even a top 50 school.

jdawg113

Sorry to hear that man, that is no doubt rough. I wouldnt say completely throw it out... I mean you were able to prep much higher than that and sounds like you could have achieved it with better testing conditions this past take. Unfortunately you can't control what happens in the TC or a lot outside. You def want to be prepared for anything though. Have you taken PT's in all sorts of conditions? it seems like you have more of a test day problem. How many PTs did you do? How were theyu? Loosely/strictly timed? late at night/early morning/midday? did you have your snack in the break? They seem like very trivial details but can do some serious damage if not taken seriously.

Make sure you rotate your prep(through all 3 sections) and if RC is a serious problem keep working to find what you can do to really get it down. If this is your dream and you SERIOUSLY want this then you dont need to give up, keep pushing and figure it out. Law School isnt going anywhere. Though of course if you start to think you may not want to do it anymore thats something to think about as well. But again, if this is what you want... go for it. Take a break, do something, and come back to this full force

blah170blah

I'm so sorry to hear what happened. Think about what went wrong for you on test day. If you think getting a flat tire messed you up for the entire test, then this time around is all about preparing in all kinds of testing conditions to increase mental fortitude and concentration in the worst scenarios. If it's a fundamental issue, then spend some time drilling your weak points. Take a PT, diagnose your logical weaknesses, and then study those. Best of luck!

blah170blah

I also just saw your score for DC. You're in the 170s or close if you can bring that games section to a donut (-0). Do the foolproof method for games and look at games over and over and over again.

Allison M

I second what @jdawg113 said: make sure that you're simulating test day conditions as accurately as possible when you take PTs (assuming that you decide to retake). Taking PTs in an unfamiliar environment (e.g. a library) can also help you prepare for the inevitable annoyances on test day: tapping pencils, proctors whispering, sirens outside, etc. Finally, if you were using older tests during your preparation, make sure to get your hands on more recent ones.

James Dean

@ bonjoursm, that is one of the issues. My GPA isn't great. It's right at a 3.0. Though I have an upward trend, with my final two semesters being 3.5's while working 50 hours per week. So there's that. I have some decent internships under my belt, and currently work with legal. However, I've always wanted to go to Northwestern... that's been my goal, and I thought with a 170+ and work experience I'd be able to. With my currents stats I'm looking at Loyola or some other 50-60 school (trying to stay in the midwest)... Doubt I could even get into UIUC without paying sticker. With these schools, my job prospects are a gamble with the current market, assuming I cant secure a top spot in the class.

@ jdawg113, you're right, I committed several of these deviations. I took most of my PT's in the evenings as I work full time. So late at night, ending around 9 pm. I did stay true to the 35 min per section, but I most of the time I only took 4 sections, not 5. And I rarely took a test early morning on the weekend because I travel to see my girlfriend. My enjoinments were rarely quiet , so I think I nailed the distraction factor. I felt confident because when I took the last two most recent tests from 2014 I scored over 170 on all of them. I'd say I've taken 60 timed PTs overall: 30 the first time around, 20 the second, 10 the last.

You're right, though, I should've committed to every Saturday at the exact time, under the exact conditions, and on campus or in a similar classroom.

Nilesh S

@"James Dean" Northwestern might still take you though it would be a reach but it is definitely possible as they LOVE applicants with work ex and it appears from your post that you do have plenty of work ex... also the school work balance that you speak about will play in your favor. You have to make your sop killer. I would say that you should put an app in as you continue studying for the test and you might want to hire an admissions consultant as your case seems to be exactly the type that would benefit from this.

jdawg113

doesnt have to be the absolute same everytime nor loud/quiet, just a nice balance mixed in. If you get too used to noise and its real quiet on test day the smallest thing could throw you off big time. FT work does make it hard, I would PT saturdays n sundays, I wake up early to workout then get a little bit of studying b4 work and then get a bit more in after before sleep

Also gratz Allison!, send me some of ur smurtz plseee

Allison M

Thanks! 7Sage + all of the PTs = my smurtz.

ddakjiking

Ouch OP. If you were PT'ing in the 170's you should def study for a retake. From what I know with the retake rule, you will be eligible for this upcoming Oct test (someone correct me if wrong). That leaves you with at least 7 months to prepare. The new mentors have already included some helpful tips for ya.

James Dean

Big thanks to all of you. I've been very depressed about this since December, even more so after my score was released last night. You've all been very encouraging. I'll probably retake in Oct 2015, ED at Northwestern, and go from there. I'll probably submit some last minute applications this cycle before I start studying, again. Not looking forward to giving the LSAT my soul again. Thanks again guys and gals.

jdawg113

if you dont plan on matriculating it might be a waste of money so send out apps... but you do you... and Oct is very far away so feel free to take a nice relaxing break for a little

ddakjiking

Yeah. Feel free to take another month off before getting back into the study grind. I started a retakers June Thread but you're more than welcome to join for motivation. I want it to be a continually updated Thread for us retakers.

PublicInterest2018

Apply at UIUC. I got in there with a full ride scholarship and a 162. My GPA was below their medians too. They are really trying to get the LSAT median back up and a 161 should be good enough.

Nilesh S

Yes I support @PublicInterest2018 : IF you wish to go to law school this year than UIUC is an excellent bet... highly regarded by the likes of Brian Leiter who does the Leiter Rankings... He regards it as a top 20 school... it is a great feeder into the Chicago market.... and if you really want to go to Northwestern.... and this is a risky strategy.... so apply this at your own risk... I'm just putting it out on the table... go to UIUC... kill it...and apply for transfer to NU at the end of your first year with your 1L grades... in the transfer process, the schools do not care about your LSAT score or undergrad grades... (even though they say that they will look at them) as they do not have to report them to US News for ranking purposes... what matters its your 1L grades. Schools to which people transfer want only the cream of the crop as far as 1L students go so that would for a school like UIUC to a T14 would be top 5 - 10 % of class - this is except HYS, where you would basically need to rank at the top of your class... the seats that come in the transfer process is basically a seat that gets vacant when another student transfers or goes on a sabbatical or a year long study abroad program or visit to another law school. Transferring is a huge game in the law school admissions process and although it is risky.... every year, a number of lucky students do end up transferring... the down side is that the transfer school will not give you any money... adn you will lose all benefits that you may have had at your earlier school such as increased money based on your 1L grades, your cum laude/magna cum laude/summa cum laude as well as your Order of the Coif awards, and your spot on Law Review. That said, an admission to Columbia would trump all of this at a school ranked in the 20s or below

jdawg113

"and this is a risky strategy"
I would deff suggest taking time off and taking another year off and see what you can do before even thinking of the transfer route

Nilesh S

@jdawg113 totally... I 100% support you on that... I tried to transfer from the LL.M at the University of Chicago Law School to their JD program 2 years ago... I was well into the top quarter of the class with 6 A level grades (180 and above) out of 9... and I still did not manage to get in... hence 2 years of pain :P ,,, that said, submitting transfer apps to a number of schools... casting a wider net gives you a much better chance targetting a specific school... and there is also the issue of ending up in the top 10 % of your class... statistically speaking 90% chances are that you won't.

James Dean

I've already considered the transfer strategy and I'm not confident enough in my law school potential to risk it. So I'm going to avoid that, unless I get near a full ride scholarship at good, but not top, school, one that I'm willing to graduate from. Then I would try if the grades allowed.

Right now I'm seriously considering waiting until next year, but even though i know applying this late In the cycle with weak scores isn't ideal, I'm sick of delaying my future.

ddakjiking

@"James Dean" That's good to hear. Going into law school with the intent on transferring to a better school is super risky lol. You have the right attitude with that. Take the time to soak in everything and plan your future.

blah170blah

@"James Dean" I know it sucks to have to delay the future. In my experience (I've delayed for about 2 years now), the worst is having to tell your friends and family who know that you want to go to law school that you're delaying again. Even if they're not talking behind your back, I was always paranoid they thought I was some kind of failure because I couldn't do what others did (IE go to their dream schools straight out of undergrad, or after 1 year of experience).

That being said, the time to change your destiny is now. Once you're in law school, it's harder to go to your dream school. Your scores indicate that your capabilities are there and you have the potential to go to the school of your choice (I always believe that potential is there but, even if you believe you can tap out potential, it doesn't apply to you). That opportunity supersedes all other voices, including your own insecurities (should they exist). Don't underestimate the mental component of this test. If you believe that you're cursed forever with 161, you will be. Change your psychology, change your destiny (I know that sounds so cliche but it's true). You can destroy this test so do everything in your power to get that score you KNOW you can get to go to whatever school you want to go to.

Strategically, be honest with yourself in thinking about what has gone wrong. What contributed to your 161? Like everyone said, if really for you, it's just the psychological component ("I need to get a 170," "I can't get another 161," "OMG what if I do 'bad'?", etc), I would recommend taking tests in true conditions. I would also recommend taking tests in abysmal conditions to condition your mind to get past even the most horrifying circumstances.

emli1000

I would still apply to certain schools! They might accept you with a 161 and see your previous scores and realized that you've been stuck with that score. I spoke with the dean from the school that I want to attend and I was told that they look closely at all of your LSAT scores some people cannot improve from their 140s score and they sometimes take that into consideration. But if that doesn't work and you don't get accept into your top 3 schools without any scholarships, then I would reconsider taking the LSAT again in Oct.

Also, maybe when you begin taking PTs you should take them in the AM on the weekends (assuming u work during the week) since the Oct. LSAT is on a Sat. morning. Usually when you work all day and take a PT in the evening your scores may vary.

jdawg113

I mean his top schools seem to be out of reach with a 161, to just apply now is giving in and accepting a score that isn't his potential. Unless you take multiple PT's in very close to test-like conditions and are scoring 161 or lower I dont see a reason to apply when target schools are out of reach

emli1000

@jdawg113 *eye roll* lol it was just a suggestion. GPA + Personal statement could help. Or no?

James Dean

@blah170blah In regards to family and friends, that's exactly how I've been feeling. If I take it again, I honestly don't want to tell anyone... I'm sick of feeling the disappointment, albeit self-imposed, that comes with revealing the same unsatisfactory score again and again.

If I didn't truly believe it was a curse before, I'm struggling not to now. But you have given solid advice, and so has everyone else. I should've been training to cope with my test day anxiety. I think it's my biggest enemy. There's really no reason I should score a 170-173 on my last three PT's and then fall to a 161. If/when I start studying again, I will definitely take all of this into consideration.

blah170blah

@emli1000 I think GPA + personal statements help once you're within a certain band of scores. However, if you're below the 25% of top schools, they most likely won't look at other parts of the application.

James Dean

@emli1000 I will be sending out a few applications this week. Hopefully I can leverage some serious funding. Otherwise it's another year for me.

jdawg113

Not really. Not for Northwestern. Especially with OP's GPA a 161 wont do it. Even a 168 would be tough to get in/much more than just sticker.
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ddakjiking

@emli1000 It appears that OP is out of college with a 3.0 so that's fixed. His best bet would be to get a higher LSAT score. Although personal statements and work experience may differentiate Applicant A from Applicant B, GPA/LSAC pretty much makes up your admission fate.

James Dean

My personal statement should be decent. I'm a first generation college student that worked and paid my way through undergrad. I've had a enough hardship to write a compelling statement. However, I'm trying not to resort to emotional appeals, though it is difficult.

emli1000

@"James Dean" @blah170blah I mean I've read a few articles that not many people are attending law schools due to the cost & LSAT. Maybe since it's the end of the cycle they could accept some candidates. Some schools are weird like that. Especially if they want more people enrolled? IDK. One of my friends got accept with a 140 on the Feb LSAT last year. I mean, maybe you'll get lucky. Maybe they'll offer you money. But you won't know if you don't try. That's just how I see it.

blah170blah

Echoing what @ddakjiking and @emli1000 have said, I would highly retake if Northwestern is your goal. You could very well have a compelling personal statement and situation where Northwestern would make an exception to take you given their normal admission stats. However, why be an exception when you have the opportunity to make yourself part of the "norm?" I'm a huge proponent of leaving minimal amount of personal success to chance. Retaking reduces the amount of chance goes into your acceptance from Northwestern, especially considering how formulaic law school admissions are. Also, let's say you retake and get into the high 170s. That opens up a slew of schools you hadn't even considered before where Northwestern becomes a safety school and you're aiming for NYU (personal preference haha). I think if you made a pro/con list, the pros are on your side. Most of the cons I believe are psychological but that's what the community is for -- a bunch of likeminded, frustrated individuals who have a more intimate understanding of what you're going through compared to those outside of the law school/LSAT community.

James Dean

Unfortunately, I know Northwestern won't happen this year... I missed their application deadline. It was before the February release and I didn't want to waste the money applying without knowing my raw numbers would at least get my application a glance.

James Dean

@blah170blah I agree. I haven't been partaking in the LSAT prep community and everyone "out there" tells me to accept the score and apply to lower schools. They don't understand.

James Dean

I'm really regretting not participating on here these last two times. I forgot how focused and motivated I was the first time because of the community.

blah170blah

“The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now.”

There is no time like the present

Jonathan Wang

Fine advice given here regarding steps to take. Nothing really to add there.

I want to focus on your LSAT situation a bit more. Starting from a -7 to a -10 every time due to RC is a tough pill to swallow when a standard 170 scale is -10 to -12. You're essentially counting on perfection in LG and LR, and under test pressure that will almost never happen. Your LG and LR results flip-flopped the first two times around, indicating that you have at least the capability to do well in those sections (obviously you want to work on them now for consistency), but the bigger issue to me is that you've never demonstrated that capability in RC, *and you seem to be okay with that*.

You're handicapping yourself by just accepting that you're going to have to eat a full RC passage worth of incorrect answers every time you take the test. You would never accept that you're just going to get 25% of each LR or LG section wrong, so why are you just lying down when it comes to RC? Take this opportunity to work on your weakest section.

James Dean

@Jonathan Wang I don't want to accept it, but because I have been unable to improve it, I've accepted that I'm a below average reader. I've tried the method recommended here in the full course, I've paid for the velocity LSAT RC course, I've used the LSAT trainer, and I've read just about every RC recommendation out there. It's ruining me. It, for me, seems like the only section that I can't drill. Reviewing doesn't help me. I could retake the same RC a month later, and miss the same amount of questions.

Marie4lawschool

@James Dean Okay, I'll be an outlier here. I reckon you could get into a strong school with your score, GPA, and background, and then you could stop torturing yourself. Just get on with applying so you don't miss more deadlines cos they're passing by!

If you perform among the top tier of students at a strong school, there will be really good job opportunities for you. I too have suffered from the trauma of three weird and frustrating LSATs (may still need therapy!) but have decided I'm definitely starting law school this year and already have very respectable acceptances to choose from.

Glad to hear you're planning on submitting some applications! Will want to know how they go and I wish you the best.

P.S. Isn't there a rule that you can't take the LSAT more than 3 times within a 2-year period? Would you have to wait till December 2015 to even be allowed to take the LSAT again? I'm not sure but worth checking and sorry if I'm mistaken.

James Dean

@Marie4lawschool because the date of my Oct 2013 LSAT was early in Oct, I could take Oct 2015 LSAT. It's hard for me to give up, especially knowing that if I apply now with a 161, I could've done the same 2 years ago. I'll let you know how it goes.

Nilesh S

@"James Dean" like I said... ordinarily, NW might not take you... but with work ex they might as they like that a LOT... so you definitely should put in an early app there as a reach with your current score... just don't get your hopes up too high... that said it looks like you have it in you to ace the test and improve on RC... try Manhattan RC... also... since you have 7 months... try reading the economist... .that definitely helps... remember... as @"Jonathan Wang" said you can improve in RC... In RC you can't train for the content of the passages... but you CAN train for the structure of the passages and types of questions... for one... an RC passage will (usually) be some variation/sequence of an argument or view (A1), support for that argument (S1), a counter argument/arguments or alternate view/ views (A2 maybe an A3 as well), support for the counter argument/arguments (S2/S3) and the author's view (AV).The degree of support for either of the arguments may vary... and the author's view will often be subtle.
Then there are certain types of questions which are standard eg. some rendition of the following: (1) what does the author mean when he uses the word "enlightened" in line 32 of the passage (you have to look at the context here) (2) what is the main point of the passage (this question is easy to get - because the wrong answers have certain patent defects eg. they are too specific or out of scope etc.) (3) what is the structure of the passage (an example of an answer for this type of question would be something like: A problem is presented, two solutions are proposed, support for each position is given and one solution is chosen over the others - proper notation helps A LOT here) (4) According to the passage some scientists/scholars/reporters/professors hold the opinion that/ have criticized (these are just a test of how well you know the passage... no higher function beyond this involved here) (5) from the passage it can be inferred that the author believes that... (now here are questions where you have to use your judgement and common sense based on what the passage conveys about the author/situation) (6) the passage provides most support for - (7) each of the following is dealt with in the passage except (8) the role of computer programmers in the passage is most analogous to (9) which of the following is dealt with in both passage A and passage B / in passage A but not passage B(10) how are the two passages related to each other

You may not be able to train for all kinds of subjects... but you CAN definitely prime your reading skills so that you look for at least some of these as you go through the passage... (1) develop a notation scheme that gets you the broad structure of the passage (2) tune your self to the different question types (3) assimilate in your prep the strategies for identifying the right answers for these standard question types. If you do this over a period of time, your RC score WILL improve. Practice some of these with passages from the economist. I was struggling with RC too before I changed my mindset....

As for your waiting a year... if you can get a great school especially a T14 of which you seem capable, then you owe it to yourself to go to the best school you can, with money if possible. I waited for 2 years to get into a school where I would be comfortable graduating from.

emli1000

@"Nilesh S" such great advice for RC! Thank you!!

hrjones44

i would kill for that 161!

Nilesh S

@emli1000 no problem... I just shared what I got from the RC guide I used and what worked for me.... I would usually be able to break up most passages like this though some (very few) were just long factual narrations... even then the method helped as far as identifying the question types went. Glad this was useful.

James Dean

@Nilesh S Thank you for the RC recommendations. I'm so far from being able to succeed in your methods. I'm actually surprised I score as high as I do on RC, because it's not uncommon for me to read it and have no idea what the main point is... re-read it and still have no idea. I may just sign up for the economist, as you have suggested, and force myself to deconstruct the passages.

Nilesh S

@"James Dean" no problem. I know how it feels but the more you practice, the better you will get at this... Main points in RCs can be tough to get at times...but even if that is the case, you can increase your chances even if you guess by eliminating some of the answers that have patent defects. For example... let us say that a passage says:

"A number of things, which would ordinarily be considered as personal impediments in an individual such as reclusive behavior, mercurial temperament and a struggle with alcoholism, actually had a profound effect on Jackson Pollock's style and contributed to his rise as a major figure in the abstract expressionist movement."

In an MP question, some common defects you will see is that an answer will be too narrow i.e. Jackson Pollock's mercurial personality contributed to his rise as a major figure in the abstract expressionist movement... this answer will be wrong as it is TOO NARROW... it does not make mention of his alcoholism or his reclusive nature... Some will be too broad/out of scope... i.e. Things ordinarily considered personal impediments helped made Jackson Pollock the BIGGEST figure in the abstract expressionist movement... This is wrong as it goes WAY BEYOND the scope of the passage... we don't know if Pollock was the biggest figure... all we know is that he was a major figure... if you can eliminate even a couple like this, your chances of guessing the right answer become much better... all these require you to do is to read the passage... sometimes... when you can't pinpoint the best answer, its better to eliminate the obviously wrong ones... and yes developing a system of notation actually helps in this type of question...

Definitely get the economist and deconstruct the passages... alternatively if you want we might be able to do a couple of LSAT exercises and compare notes.

emli1000

I see! I've struggled with RC but hopefully all of the extra work that im implementing will be worth it!

Alex Short

I usually don't offer advice or comment on people's situations, but having read most of the replies and the OP's responses, I feel as though I should.

James Dean,

By reading about you, your scores, background info, as well as your goals, it baffles me to read some of the stuff you have said. You're clearly an articulate individual, and you have done rather well (although not consistently) on the LSAT. You have high goals, which require hard work, and it appears to me you've given up before the battle begun.

With regards to your RC being -7 to -10 on every test, you wrote:

"... because I have been unable to improve it, I've accepted that I'm a below average reader."

Really? I am gonna call bs on that. Just because you've been unable to improve does not mean you are below average when it comes to reading. In fact, the success you have seen for LR suggests you are an above average reader. You also said "reviewing doesn't help me". Maybe you are doing it wrong, or maybe you haven't had enough practice for RC, or maybe the recent LSATs being more difficult in the RC sections threw you for a loop...

Either way, please, look at how many different people - all of whom are likely busy and facing very similar challenges as you are - came out and have offered serious insight and advice for you. To respond to them by saying 'well, poor me, it's all over now' indicates to me that you are not resilient enough for this. I don't think any less of you bc you had 3 scores of 161.

jdawg is absolutely right in everything he has said to you, and I would strongly recommend you review what he posted. You stand to gain nothing by applying now, while you stand to seriously improve your chances at any school you apply to if you recognize that a retake is your best bet.

This is likely one of the only times in your life when your own discipline and hard work in 3 months can change your professional future by quite a bit. Lift your head up, and go for it. I'll be rooting for ya.

Nilesh S

@"Alex Short" I agree in principle with everything you have said, but I can totally see why @"James Dean" feels the way he does... a 161 three times on the test can leave you feeling a little shocked and give you a sensation akin to "wtf is GOING ON HERE"... self doubt begins to creep in... the mind begins to play games with you... that said... James Dean, I think that you have it in you to score more... I was looking at your numbers... you say that you were scoring consistently into the high 160s low 170s... yet you got 161, 161, 161... agreed and fair... and lets also agree with your assumption (which I think is not accurate) that you can't improve on RC.. however, I don't think reading comp is the only contributor there... Lets take a 8 on the reading comp... not a 7 nor a 10... even if you get 7 more questions wrong... - 1 on the LG and - 6 on the LR... you should still get a 165 odd score... that you are capable of this is indicated by your PT scores... this leads me to conclude that while you have the ability to score at least in the high 160s... you do not yet have the consistency to do it - the numbers you give definitely seem to show that this is the case. This means 1) plenty more BR done the right way; 2) smart (and not just hard), systematic planning of drills and PTs - use an excel document to track your weak points and eliminate them & 3) you taking @jdawg113 's advice on the break... that 7sager gives some of the best prep advice on the forum and I would highly recommend taking it - a break apart from giving you much needed rest will help give your mind the space it needs to cement the subconscious connections it has made during your extended process of preparation ... and yes... do yourself a favor and hard though it is (and it IS hard) stop thinking about the string of 161s and the fact that you can't improve at RC... remember what Nietzche said about the abyss gazing into you if you gaze too long into it !!!

James Dean

@Alex Short Thank you for your humbling response. You are correct to have revealed my flawed thinking. That mind set, in itself, is enough to prevent success. After having read all of these generous responses I am forced to admit that I deluded myself into thinking that I had done all that I could. For that I am thankful, because I know that with the PROPER approach there should be improvement, and that failure to improve is most likely my failing to approach it correctly. So, as many of you have said, I need to break down RC into smaller areas and develop fundamental skills to tackle the whole.

@Nilesh S thank you, again, for all of your advice. I do need to develop consistency. It shouldn't be a coin toss on test day. Many of the suggestions presented in this thread will help that, and I will implement and review them when I resume studying. And thanks for the Nietzche reference (big fan).

Nilesh S

NP... btw I love Nietzche too... Brian Leiter who is one of my fav. profs and in all likelihood will teach you Jurisprudence and Evidence if you end up at Chicago is a world renowned authority on him. More over he is referenced SO MANY times by Kevin Conroy in various Batman renditions.. that makes him THAT much cooler