Chart skeptic's challenge: show me a game for which a chart definitely saves time

steve-10

I've just gone through the "Grouping Games with a Chart" lessons, and for each of the four games -- two in the lessons and two in the problem set -- as an experiment I did NOT use a chart but instead used a "standard" grouping diagram that allows members to have multiple memberships. Multiple memberships is said to be the condition which dictates use of a chart. In none of the four did I have any more of a problem answering questions than JY did.

Furthermore, for a couple of the games the final question not only added a rule but removed one of the original ones. For these, JY abandoned his chart and started over with a new one. I didn't do this with my diagram, and am unclear as to why JY started over. In each case it seemed easy enough to see the implications of the rule change to my original diagram. JY's motivation for starting over seemed to be that he was afraid he would miss a required change to his original chart.

My challenge: can someone cite a game for which a chart definitely saves time?

Alex

@"steve-1" said:

My challenge: can someone cite a game for which a chart definitely saves time?

The problem is going to be that the answer is subjective. I find that grouping with a chart saves me time.

Cant Get Right

@desire2learn , what was that game you made the chart setup for a few weeks ago?

desire2learn

@"Cant Get Right" 9-3-3.
https://7sage.com/lsat_explanations/lsat-9-section-3-game-3/

Cant Get Right

That's the one! Thanks @desire2learn .

Check out the two methods on this game OP.

DumbHollywoodActor

https://7sage.com/lsat_explanations/lsat-4-section-3-game-2/

PT4 game 2 is blown out of the water by a chart, in my opinion.

And sometimes, JY rewrites the master game board as a teaching tool, not necessarily because he needs to do it to get the question correct.

A game board isn’t a requirement. Game boards are just tools to put in your tool box. There are some students (unicorns, I call them) who don’t even use game boards; they just have an ability to intuitively see all of the rules and how they interact in their mind.

So take everything with a grain of salt. Use what you’d like and what works.

desire2learn

@"steve-1" I think there are two main points. First, do what works for you. Some people can hold multiple pieces of information in their head at once and some prefer to have it written down. Some people find one representation (such as a chart) more intuitive while others prefer a different setup. Always adapt the advice of others to maximize your effectiveness. Second, I have a tendency to not start over and just "see the implications" like yourself. However, I have made mistakes doing this once in a while. The key is to balance levels of certainty with timing. If you have the time you can go for more certainty. If you don't have the time you want to go with the combination of reasonable certainty and speed.

I found that on 9-3-3 the chart made my life WAY easier than other methods but I would be interested in seeing how you would set it up (in terms of what seems intuitive to you). I agree that there are many different ways to skin a cat.

Alex

@DumbHollywoodActor said:
https://7sage.com/lsat_explanations/lsat-4-section-3-game-2/

PT4 game 2 is blown out of the water by a chart, in my opinion.

Just did this and can confirm that it is indeed made easier by a chart.

Thanks @DumbHollywoodActor !

steve-10

@DumbHollywoodActor and Alex Divine, PT 4 G2 is one of the ones used in the lessons I mentioned. What I did for each of the four games involved -- two in lessons, two in problem set is:

Based on the game scenario and rules, without looking at JY's work yet, did my diagram and rules transliteration, including inferences, to be ready for the first question. Then I watched JY's setup. In a couple of cases I learned that I missed an inference, but that wasn't related to the form of the diagram. Then for each question I read and answered it based on what I'd written before seeing the question, and before seeing JY's answer. Then I watched JY's answer. As I said in the OP, in each case I didn't see how the chart was faster.

Here is what I took into Q1:
https://i.gyazo.com/6690481c4b5e214894cf1cf0884bdf68.png

@desire2learn, if anyone can point me to an online source, video or otherwise, for 9-3-3 I'll take a look at it.

With thanks for the responses, my challenge still stands.

steve-10

Just ran into another example: PT 47 S4 G3 -- record stores and music genres. In this case I think standard grouping is superior (for me!) to a chart because the limitations on number of members can be shown directly instead of with a separate note (for JY's chart, the limits are written above). Here's what I took into the first question:
https://i.gyazo.com/62eb7bcf64c8423677c2e0e0462c6855.png
To see JY's chart, go here: https://7sage.com/lsat_explanations/lsat-47-section-4-game-3/

BinghamtonDave

Although it doesn't precisely apply to this specific topic, I wanted to bring up PT 35-Game 1. This is actually an in and out game that made with a chart can go extremely smooth. I've done this game 20 times and can confirm that the chart has saved me more time than any other method I've tried. For this set: PT 35, getting this game done in about 6:30 is absolutely crucial, the next two games are deceptively tough.

Let me know how it goes @"steve-1"

BinghamtonDave

I'm surprised that no one has brought up 43- Game 4. I think a chart here really works well. In fact, I think a chart here allows you to see the inferences a bit clearer: the placement of "T." Overall, I think what this thread will eventually stumble upon is that for some people, the gap in time saved between doing a chart and doing a regular grouping setup is marginal. I can do 43-4 with a regular setup because I have experience juggling elements in my head and seeing inferences. This comes with the embedded cost of mis-juggling. lol. A chart here mitigates that possibility.

I actually drilled 47 LG today before even reading this and did Game 3 with a regular grouping game set up.

steve-10

@David3389, w/r 35-1 do you mean the chart that JY used? I agree that's elegant, but I'm afraid making it requires an insight that I might not have. I didn't have it when solving before looking at JY's explanation.

W/r 43-4 and "T" -- when I got to the 3rd rule I wrote slash-T under the Y column, and when I got to the last rule I wrote T (and I) into the X and Z columns -- as did JY. I'm not sure how a chart would make that easier.

steve-10

OK, just for you guys, @desire2learn and @"Cant Get Right" I paid a fortune to Amazon to get hold of PT9. Before looking at the video for S3 G3 I did basically the same thing that JY did, although I used his "compact" 3x3 board and I didn't split; I just did a 3x3 next to each question. Are you saying what JY did is a chart? If so, then indeed, let's use a chart on this one! I'm thinking that a defining feature of a chart is that it can have cells that are crossed out (JY's practice is to use a squiggle) to indicate that they cannot contain anything; no? If not, what's the defining feature of a chart?

Cant Get Right

Yeah, the 3X3 setup is @desire2learn 's . Really clever and I'd definitely classify it as a chart. I think that being able to cross out cells is definitely a feature of a chart. I think the main feature is that you have both a vertical and a horizontal grouping element which is what creates the cells.