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Comments
What is your uGPA?
wait, whatttt?
What is your GPA?
What is your GPA? With a 169, you're definitely in T14 territory as long as your GPA is above 3.5. The two cancels on record isn't great but it shouldn't be a deal breaker
Four takes but only two reportable scores? That's totally fine, I'd say.
Did you talk about writing an addendum with the Sr. Consultant? Depending on the reason for the cancels, schools could even overlook the cancels en mass.
Did they say you shouldn't, even as a reach? Going off @calcal101 @goingfor99th and @"Accounts Playable" , if your GPA is competitive then, all other things being equal, I can't see why some couldn't be at least reaches if not targets.
Was this an informational consultation? What have your other experiences been like?
A
You’ll not get accepted to every school you don’t apply to.
Assuming you have the money to do so, what good reason is there to not apply to any school you are interested in? The worst thing that can happen is that you won’t be admitted, which is your current state of existence right now... they don’t come after your family.
UCI is just below the T20, but you'd likely get $$$ for the LSAT and they're pretty splitter friendly
http://mylsn.info/b3u3sz/
T14 is a reach. Wash U seems to accept quite a bit.
Idk why they would tell you not to apply with that LSAT score unless they only want you applying to schools they know you can be accepted to because you're more likely to think highly of them. Fishy....
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did they really say "do not apply to the top 20"? I highly doubt that...they probably said something more like "You probably won't get into the top 20, you should think more about schools like XYZ"...
Wait, are you saying they're charging you $1000 to help you with a letter of continuing interest? Don't do that--if you need editing help, reach out to people here for free (I'm happy to help, for one)
Another thing that needs to be considered=soft factors and mitigating factors…how long ago did you graduate? Do you have solid work experience? Is it legal-related?
A
That makes me super hesitant to ever reach out to Spivey. Advising you to go to a school with intention to transfer is really horrible advice. I 2nd applying to UCI, they are splitter friendly. What about Fordham?
@"surfy surf" I mean Derek was super cool. He was just out traveling this week so he referred me to Nicholas. Honestly, don't like the guy. Don't care if he reads this.
Looking at MyLSN, it does sound like T20 would be a pretty big stretch. You could apply to a couple that are more splitter friendly (WUSTL, Vanderbilt) but your chances are probably going to be a lot better outside of T20. It also depends a lot on your goals for location. If you are looking at schools outside of the T20, it becomes more important to attend a school in the location where you want to practice. For me in Seattle, attending Seattle U (which is ranked #120) is still a viable option. There aren't many law schools around here, and SU actually does pretty well locally. So there are a lot of things to factor in.
It sounds like you are wanting northeast? (NY, NJ etc) Those are good schools in that region. I think you could still apply for some higher ranked ones but the schools you mentioned should also be in your list for applications if you want to be in that region. If you're willing to live and work elsewhere, there are some other options in between.
I think we should be careful about criticizing Spivey on the basis of this discussion -- as whoami indicated, what the consultant stated was more like "I can't tell you where to apply but I wouldn't do the T-20. Check out Brooklyn law instead and then transfer into the top-20." So the initial characterization of the consultant's advice as "do not apply to the top 20" is misleading. The consultant's advice seems to be that the top 20 is highly unlikely to admit you, which is why other schools are a better focus. I don't think the consultant is saying that it's impossible to get into a top 20 and so you should definitely not apply to them.
Now is the advice that you're unlikely to get into a top 20 good or bad? It's hard to tell -- that advice might be premised on having seen many applicants with your statistics and # of LSAT takes. Maybe it's bad advice, sure. But I am uncomfortable with a cascade of posters saying that Spivey sucks merely on the basis of a misleading characterization of the advice...
Agreed with @thrillhouse - choosing where to apply is an extremely individual thing and there are a lot of different factors in the decision. Spivey & Co are very well versed in the nuances of this process.
@whoami, do you have specific schools that you are interested in? What are your goals? You said you don't care too much about T20 but it'd be helpful to know what outcome you are hoping for.
B
C
I agree. I also don't think we are getting the entire story or context.
First, why only 3 lower ranked schools in NY/NJ? Did OP mention he has a preference for schools in NY? Sounds like it. Otherwise, why not consider all the other schools in that range? This tells me something isn't adding up.
Also, OP starts by saying that they "stated... not to apply to any of the T-20."
Then, this turns out to be it was actually:
Then OP stated that they are charging him X amount of dollars to write a LOCI. Then, it turns out to sound more like a "Why X" essay and an LOCI/app update.
As for the alleged advice that you should transfer, I've seen Spivey et al. explain that it's very hard to get into a T13 with a sub 3.0 GPA and If you 100% are dead set on T13, transferring may be the best path. IIRC, he also hedged this with explaining that when people DO get into T13s with sub 3.0 GPAs it's only 1-2 of the schools they've applied to out of many and it's usually very late in the cycle off the waitlist. Just to be clear, I'm paraphrasing and I might not be representing his advice accurately. The point is, that advice doesn't say it's a good idea vs bad idea. Just that it can be the most viable path to the T13 with a low GPA. And there's a lot to unpack and consider otherwise, such as work experience, years since you've graduated, UG major, etc.
Just be careful about accurately representing what people actually say.
There's a Spivey thread over on LSL. Express your concerns to him and his company over there. Here isn't the right place to have this discussion.
@"surfy surf" said:
Which, ironically, Spivey seem to agree on (barring some disclaimers).
http://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/mistake-2-shangri-law/
This is a great read thanks for sharing!
@Alex this is a discussion thread. I'll value your input once you actually take the LSAT.
http://mylsn.info/e2ri1f/
I disagreewith Spivey then. You have a decent chance in the Top 20 outside the Top 14. Maybe Spivey knows this cycle is going worse for splitters or thinks your overall app is weak, but just based on the numbers you should have a chance at the lower schools in the top 20 and should apply to them in case it helps you negotiate with whatever school you end up at which likely should depend on scholarships and location.
I see that you deleted your post so I don't want to keep this going, but I'm just going to post a reminder of forum rules:
https://7sage.com/discussion/#/discussion/15
Particularly rules 1 and 2. We like to be kind around here, and appreciate when other people give genuine input, which Alex did.
cc: @akistotle, might want to lock this since the original post is deleted
@Alex
I value OP’s input on their experience with Spivey Consulting. I don’t see why the posts about Spivey Consulting have to be restricted to LSL. 7Sage forum serves as a discussion forum on LSAT/ Law School admissions, and an opinion about a law school admissions consulting group is appropriate here. At least it would help me to make a wise decision on where to invest money for my cycle.
Not to add on to this but I’ve been lurking bc I’m curious what people have to say about Spivey. I think that context is really important here. If OP emailed like “dear Spivey, attached is my PS and my resume and here are my stats. I have been rejected from these schools thus far and am still awaiting responses from these schools. I am adamant in going to law school this cycle and I would like to increase my chances of going to a t20. Are there any t20s I missed in my apps which are splitter friendly?” Then it would make sense for the consultant to say “In this cycle, with your current responses, it seems unlikely you’ll get into a t20 and there’s no need to waste your time applying to the few other t20s you haven’t yet applied to. Since you’re from the east coast, try applying to those lower ranked regional schools. If you must go this cycle but you aim for a t20 then you’d have to aim to transfer.”
I’m just speculating obviously but it does matter what exactly OP asked them.
@"Leah M B" @Alex @yoojeanie1314 I don't think OP was actually being mean towards Alex. Alex seems to dictate where OP should be making his review. In that case, we should restrict all reviews even those of test centers, other prep courses, books, and 7sage itself. If we have complaints, we should rather reach out to the publishing company, author, or the head CEO of the perp course rather than express them here for others to view. I completely agree with @yoojeanie1314 and OP. You need to chill @Alex and stop implying OP's interaction is fabricated. I've heard issues with Spivey from other 7sagers as well.
@whoami You didn't need to delete the thread. It's your right to talk.
@"surfy surf" I agree but Brooklyn Law with a 167? Should anyone advise that lol?
I honestly wouldn’t be able to speak on the “right” way to advise someone who’s GPA is below most all law schools 25th percentile (no offense). Maybe OP asked where it’s more likely to get a lot of scholarship money in New York. Maybe they said “if you don’t want to move out of your house and save on living expenses Brooklyn law is next door to you maybe try that.” Who knows
@Liam215 Alex gave a response basically saying that we don't know all the context of Spivey's advice. And his reply was not rude, he was basically saying it's best not to talk behind someone's back. I think there's an argument for both sides there, because yes, there is an interest in reviewing admissions consultants here. But his response was thoughtful and about the content here. OP's response was an ad hominem attack on Alex. Whether or not anyone has taken an official LSAT has no relevance to their opinion on admission chances or consulting.
Either way, this thread is pretty dead since it's been deleted so it'd be great if mods could lock. cc: @akistotle @"Dillon A. Wright"
@"Leah M B" Thank you for tagging.
We all know the whole law school application process is tough, stressful, and sometimes painful. I know how stressful it is for OP.
But as Leah says, you can’t make an ad hominem attack. Yes, there is an argument for both sides, but whether or not someone has taken an administered LSAT is irrelevant here.
Since OP is deleted, I’m closing this thread.