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Related Discussions
Significance of T-14
CrispyCritter
Free Trial Member
I see this categorization thrown around a lot. Is the point that there is a large quality drop off after the top 14? Or that the schools in the top 14 tend to be consistent over time?
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t12 pretty much guarantees you a high salary and a job in most any city you want. anything lower is regional and employment stats arent high -- as in if you do get a job, you'll only be able to work in the region of the school, and have a high chance of only making $60k. Also, chances of passing the bar are lower in non-t12s. I know USC and Davis grads who didnt pass the bar or werent able to find a job even with passing the bar.
The t14 are generally considered to be of the highest prestige. As such, the employment statistics and other post-graduation benefits are very high. The 14 is somewhat arbitrary though, you could do 10, 15, 12 or whatever.
As far as the t25 is concerned, there's more variance among members from the 16th position to 25th. I think that in the industry, however, it's generally agreed upon that a magna or summa graduate from a 16-20ish is considered with similar value to a median or lower ranked student at a lower-end t-14.
The final thing is the alumni network. The lower down the rank, the less valuable the alumni network is to your success as a lawyer. Generally t14 schools have incredible alumni networks.
The history of it is that the T14 have switched around order but consistently been the same 14 schools for a very long time (always? I don't know how long haha). Last year though, Georgetown fell out and UT moved into 14. So, folks have tended toward now saying T13 since there was a shakeup at the bottom. As we see now, Georgetown took it's place back in the 14 hah. But that's why those schools are grouped that way.
That said, those are also schools that have more of a "national" reach - basically, name recognition that allows you to go to any market with a recognized quality degree. No, there's not like a steep drop in quality of education between schools ranked #14 vs #15. But, there may be a drop in recognized prestige, if that makes sense. Part of the reason too why UT wasn't really considered true T14 by most - it doesn't have the recognition of prestige that schools like Georgetown, Cornell, and Duke do, though they are close in rankings.
T:14 are schools that have national reach as @"Leah M B" has said and boast impressive employment outcomes. For example, Columbia Law sent about 83% of its graduates into BigLaw and Federal clerkships. While not attending a T14 isn't going to jeopardize your legal career, it definitely makes it alot easier for an individual gunning for biglaw or prestigious PI jobs to attend T14. Because T14 schools have national reach, graduating with a T14 degrees allows for more career flexibility in law. There's always a good chance that you can practice BigLaw if you find PI to be a good fit or vice versa. Also, with a T14 degree you need not be limited by the region of the law school.
Wait wait are you guys saying if we can't get into anything beyond T14 it's not worth the time and effort? Texas A&M's statistics for class of 2016 show 85% employment with 80% bar pass rate and salaries ranging from 50k (lowest reported) to 128k (highest reported) with the median ranging from 60k to 100k. They are considered tier 3 law school with the tuition ~30k for in-state residents and ~40k for out-of-state residents. Same goes for SMU's Dedman with 88.5% employment and 84.5% bar passage rate. Dedman's salary and tuition, of course, being higher than that of A&M and is a tier 2 law school... I'm sure there will always be a few unlucky ones who don't pass the bar on their first try just as there are people who don't get the "passing score" on the LSAT for their school of choosing on their first try. I'm not trying to be an asshole nor discredit T14 in any way because I do agree with what you guys are saying to a certain extent. Correct me if I'm not wrong but aren't we trying to overcome this kind of all or nothing mentality by studying for the LSAT? The CBTs I mean lolol.
Legal salaries are usually bi-modal. Don't look at median/average/range salaries. Look at the specific percent of students making a specific salary. A school might look appealing to you bc of the salary range but it might really be that like, 80% make 60k and 20% make 160k. If you're happy working in xyz region from xyz regional school and feel comfortable with how much $ you're spending on tuition and bar pass rates and salary/employment rates then there's nothing wrong with that. It's terrifying for a lot of people to think about going through years of law school to have a high chance of making a paralegal salary (60k)
I'm jacking this comment from a TLS post which convinced me to retake the LSAT
This is regarding UCLA:
"If you look at the 25th percentile salaries, you'll see there's a big jump between the 25th percentile salary for firms with 251-500 attorneys, and firms smaller than that (and then a big gap to all the non-firm salaries below). About half the 257 grads who reported salary (52%) reported average salaries of over $100k, but within those ranges some of the salaries dip down to $75 or $85k. The percentage of people in those positions are only 45% of employed grads, and about 43% of all grads. So that's very different from saying that a T20 guarantees a $100k job. They're respectable statistics, but not overwhelming odds that you'll end up at $100k at graduation."
The Top 14 not only have much better placement into Big Law which would help you pay off your debt, but also have better LRAPs(loan repayment assistance programs) which will allow you to pay your debt if you couldn't get Big Law or if you choose to pursue public interest.
If you are going below the Top 14 you almost always run the risk of not getting Big Law if you happen to be bad at law school exams and also don't have an excellent LRAP to fall back on. This means that if you decide not to attend a Top 14 you are taking a much bigger risk.
If you can graduate with little to no debt because of a scholarship or because of your own savings or family money, then the risk of a really bad outcome (debt that will be extremely hard to pay off) will be decreased and it is more likely to be financially safe enough to attend a non- Top 14
@BrianSeo I'm definitely not saying that! Although it is true that many people feel that way.
T14 gives you a much better shot at Biglaw, which is high paying. It also gives you a boost in having a degree that is well-regarded in pretty much any region of the country.
I personally also applied to 2 local schools, one which is top 50 and one which is most definitely not (sub-100). But, I live in the pacific northwest, which is a very insular area. Both schools actually place pretty well. Employment stats are better at the better school than the other, but both should get you a reasonable outcome.
However, that "reasonable outcome" is employment that is probably +/- $60k at the lower ranked school. So if you take on six figures of debt for a $60k job, that is a bad outcome. That is why we advocate so hard for raising LSAT scores. Not just to be able to crack T14 but to give you better scholarship options at regional schools as well. Free or low loans with a $60k job is not bad. It's a good start, and you will likely work your way up eventually. Ideally, I think I'd prefer to go to a T14 for the name recognition, so I could have more of a choice of which area to live in after school, but I also have no intention of having more than $100k in debt - that's my personal hard cut off. So if I can't get cost of attendance down in that zone, I would be more than happy to go to a slightly lower ranked school for much less money.
Although T14 graduates tend to make more on average than nont14 graduates, not getting into T14 won't bar one from sucessfully practicing law. Most of the information we have are based on starting salaries. A T14 degree will get your foot in the door and open up many opportunities; there are also opportunities provided by non t14 schools as well, but getting BigLaw tends to be more difficult once you get away from T14. Also remember that there even if your starting salary it may be possible for you to make more, once you gain experience and transition into different firms.
Ohhhhh ok, so it's really about how fast can you pay off the loans, the freedom of accumulating wealth beyond that and the availability of opportunities in the future. Thanks for explaining and not writing me off as an ignorant asshole guys I really appreciate it. I was extremely lucky enough to have my school pay for my degree so I'm only now figuring out how to pay for law school with student loans... I never imagined myself in the position of Big Laws nor going to T14. I just want to work locally and settle down so I get a little frustrated when seeing people write off schools outside T14. It really sucks how expensive schools are these days even when the returns aren't really guaranteed anymore. @"Leah M B" @"Seeking Perfection"
So, I guess the significance of T14 is really simple huh? Relatively swift financial freedom and limitless potential for your career. This would be much less likely as you leave that circle.
I assume that the higher ranked schools generally have better professors and I also assume this is especially true for harvard, yale, and stanford. It would make sense. If that is not the case, would love to your thoughts.
Sure. I just don't think it's necessarily a precipitous drop between #14 and #15, you know? More of a spectrum. I don't think there's anything magical about the 13/14 cut off. I think if you go anywhere in the T25, you're going to get a very good education.
@jkatz1488 Well of course haha I agree with you there. I'm on the same boat as the author of the original post. I saw the term T14 thrown around quite a bit as well and didn't grasp the scope of the significance of them until I posted on this thread. I'm seriously not trying to troll or anything. I'm just genuinely curious because I have plenty of friends who went to many of T14 schools as undergrads and are making quite a bit of money at big name companies. I also have friends who went to schools not even close to the T14 as undergrads but are still pretty well off even though they took on quite a bit of debt (I'm assuming law school tuition at a specific school doesn't differ much from their tuition for other majors). So I'm just trying to apply that logic into law schools. I was merely trying to challenge the idea that not going to T14 would prove to be detrimental for future well-being. Yes, T14 schools, I'm certain, have incredible group of professors and resources that will prove far more superior compared to lower ranked schools but that doesn't necessarily mean that people going to a lower ranked schools would not be able to embark on a successful legal career, let alone live comfortably; because I know that not everyone has the privilege to attend these top schools and successfully complete their degrees from them. Of course, if I were to say that ALL lower ranked schools WILL provide lucrative career opportunities, I would smack myself in the face and hope that you would too, but that's not what I'm trying to say. I hope I don't offend anybody because I really am not trying to. Just hoping for a civil discussion about something I'm sure many of the prospective law students might have questions about.
I think a lot of the “T-14 or bust” mentality comes from an overall decline in the legal market since the generation before ours. When my parents went to school, going to law school—any law school—was considered a golden ticket to the middle class. It’s no longer a golden ticket... like others have said in this thread, law degrees are expensive and regionalized and some markets are oversaturated.
If you want a slightly depressing read, check out this blog https://www.huffingtonpost.com/tucker-max/law-school_b_2713943.html and this Reddit post https://www.reddit.com/r/lawschooladmissions/comments/4f9ve4/how_to_calculate_whether_school_x_is_worth_the/
One of my recommenders sent these to me. He said if none of this gives you pause, apply to law school.
A very good education for sure. I'm certainly not T14 or bust since I'm highly debt averse and my numbers are unlikely to get me a sizeable scholly for T14. But I wonder if the professor quality is truly a spectrum. We know that prestige entices big law employers to a large degree. So why not professors too? I don't have strong feelings about this -- just musing.
Hey Brian. I didn't interpret anything you said to have a trollish edge. I think your helping us have a nice convo here so thanks for jumping in. Just wanted to share one more possible difference between the T14 and the rest. I agree with everything you said.
I wouldn't say relatively swift financial freedom. Unless you are a doctor or in the medical field, most corporate and all other jobs are easily prone to layoffs and recessions. Financial freedom is probably best achieved by having multiple sources of passive income haha.
Financial freedom is subjective, but I think it's a bit ridiculous to suggest doctors quickly achieve anything.
Woops let me redact. Not quick financial freedom. Rather, a career that is more stable and lucrative than law.
T14 law graduates have fairly stable and lucrative careers, I'd say. I don't think MDs are exactly in it for the money, either. Lawyers who stay in Big Law their entire careers almost always make huge money.
This is a very curious and serious conversation about law schools and debt avoidance.
The economic crisis left many people coming out of law school with huge loans with few viable job prospects that dettered the next cycle of possible applicants from pursuing law degrees for a couple of years. I kind of relate it to a Bear & Bull market swing and now more people see pursuing a law degree as more financially viable with more promising job opportunities.
Given that I am regionally locked due to personal circumstances but my study buddies are not, I have tried to understand the difference regarding the different tiered schools. Appreciate any input on my non-science based analysis:)
The top tiered schools teach law on a theoretical level providing understanding that can be transferable to any state that you want to take the bar. As you slide down the scale for lower tiered schools, they will focus more on law that teaches to the state bar exam. Depending on your post-law aspirations, this is critical, imo. T-14 is there for a reason in that they open doors for future opportunities that lower ranked schools may not be able to provide. One thing that I do hear from people is that for lower ranked schools if you want big law or clerkship opportunities you will have to be in the top percentile of your class versus others that may not have to given their law schools pedigree. (apologies if inaccurate)
Excited for all my friends that have worked so hard to attend the best law school for them especially those that are reaching for T-14. Their accomplishments are success stories but that has no bearing on my success story on where I want to go to law school. Do the research on what is the best for you given your situation and hope you share when you achieve your goals
All the best!!
For my options, I have a Tier 2 theoretical with not strong local job placement, top Tier 3 emphasis on state bar with great placement and a Tier 4 that is recognized as the best value for law school given the price and job placement. Hmmm, wonder which school I want to go to
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Entirely anecdotal but couple of family doctors I work with make close to low million dollars as they operate their own practices as well as get paid by hospitals. Also @goingfor99th dont alot of biglaw associates leave the field after five years? Not saying those lawyers have unstable careers though. I'm also not entirely convinced that BigLaw partners should be compared to orthapedic surgeons. While both pathways are exceedingly difficult, becoming a BigLaw partner is more about how much money and business you can bring to the firm. You have to be a rainmaker and less than 1 percent of higher level associates are even considered for partner track. From my limited understanding, becoming an orthapedic surgeon doesnt entail these things to a significant degree. Once you go through the boards and extra years of schooling, you can become a suegeon but just graduatig from law school and being well versed in the law won't gurantee partner track.
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There are a number of ways in which these career tracks are not parallel. lol
Good luck making millions as a surgeon without dedicating practically your entire life to the pursuit. Part of the reason lawyers have the reputation they do is because they make money hand over fist for doing things that perhaps shouldn't be so lucrative.
It's name recognition and access to opening doors. It depends on what you want to do, and where you want to work. If you want to be on the Supreme Court, most likely you would want to go to a school that has access (professors, alumni, programs) that get you on the correct career path. If you are going to be a probate lawyer in West Virginia, then yeah, you don't need to spend $150K at Harvard. Just have a good idea of what you want to do, and how much you are willing to give up. I've worked for lawyers who went to very high tier schools, who didn't know shit. I've worked for lawyers who went to the State school part time at night, and were the best damn lawyers around.
I think some of a person's career success relates to people skills as well.
In law? Without question! This is a huge part of lawyer success. The best lawyers are people-readers.
Yeah! I wouldn't say some. Perhaps most if not all careers rely upon some level of people skills and leadership for success. Haha.
Bryan Garner says legal success comes down to two things: writing skills and people skills.
Make sure that you are looking at what percentage of jobs are bar passage required jobs. Another thing that law schools consider is whether you have any job when reporting employment statistics of their own, even if you are working at Starbucks. So ask them what % or what absolute number of their alumni are working jobs that require them to have bar passage, and it'll show you what number of students are actually using their law degree. Just something to consider when reading these statistics, because they can be misleading.
Would be cool if lsat tested people skills more heavily
It is also important to look beyond the percentage of students who get into big law. Often times, people work in big law as clerks or staff attournies, not as associates. Law clerks and staff attornies tend to make much less than their biglaw counterparts and have less career flexibility. I read in TLS that having staff attorney position on your resume is like Scarlet letter of sorts. Check NALP to see how many are staff attornies and law clerks vs associates
Back to the original question... the t13/14 is considered a meaningful cutoff because of its consistency. Until last year with GULC, the top 14 were always the same, just occasionally reorganized. So you knew that Northwestern or Cornell was going to remain as reputable when you graduated. Plus you knew the past 20 years graduates were quality lawyers, judges, etc available for networking.