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Related Discussions
Mental Health During Law School
Raphael Rivera
Alum Member
Hello everybody, as law school approaches I get more and more worried about my possible success in school, and an article in Above The Law exacerbated those fears. The article said that, of surveyed Harvard Law students: "25% suffered from depression, 24.2% suffered from anxiety, 20.5% said they were at a heightened risk for suicide, 66% said that they experienced new mental health challenges during law school, 61.8 percent said they had frequent or intense imposter syndrome experiences at school, and 8.2 percent stated they had zero people they could open up to about their most private feelings without having to hold back." I can upload a link but I am not familiar with the forum rules regarding outside links.
What are ways that a student can address these possible problems if they arose? And what are ways that we can help our fellow students who may suffer from any one of these?
Comments
I think we can post links. The imposter syndrome sounds like it might be particularly high at Harvard.
The other things depression, anxiety, and alcoholism are largely baked into law school and the profession. 1L year is often described as one of the most stressful experience s of people's lives. I think keeping hobbies and talking with friends may be helpful. Having less debt hanging over you may make things less bad too. However, fundamentally you probably can't fully escape stress in law school.
I agree with @"Seeking Perfection"
Also, correlation does not equal causation. Lawyers/law students at elite firms/PI jobs/schools are perfectionistic, type A humans. Those kinds of people tend to be more anxious
This is a very important topic, it’s always good to talk about these things. I think particularly for anyone who has issues in these areas, it’s important to make a game plan.
Most schools have counselors available for free (or very low cost) to students and I plan to make use of that. I didn’t during undergrad and really should have. I’ve been going to counseling for a little while now and it has been so helpful for me, especially during this process of applying to law school. My anxiety has been through the roof and it’s been so good to have a place where I can let that out.
Counseling is so healthy and I really think could benefit most people. I started going because I was really unmotivated at work and had started getting really angry while I was there. It was super easy for my coworkers to say something that would make me livid and I knew it wasn’t fair to them. My counselor helped me realize what the underlying frustration was that was giving me such a short fuse and it really helped to work through that. Then as I’ve been working toward this big goal of going back to school and trying to decide what I want to do, counseling has been so helpful to keep me in a healthy mindset and give me a neutral 3rd party to vent to and stress out with haha.
I think in the high stress environment of law school, it will be just as important to me to keep up healthy habits and have somewhere like that to keep me in a good place. Highly recommend it.
It's not just law students. I read an interesting article about a guy who worked in a Big Law-type environment in the NY Times several months ago. He was addicted to drugs and I'd guess that he almost certainly suffered from some sort of anxiety or other psychological illness. Anyway, it talked about the state of mental health in law and how there is a culture of drug abuse that is a serious issue. Just looked it up; it's entitled "The Lawyer, The Addict." Good read if any of you are curious.
Basically, no one is perfect. I think a lot of perfectionists enter the legal profession, and it's possible that that perfectionism is a big part of what keeps people from seeking out counseling. The deadlines and workload surely play a factor, too. Not to mention the competitive atmosphere that's there sometimes. Some may fear that the bar will judge them for seeking help for psychological problems, but what good does it do the legal field for people to perpetuate that sort of stigmatized, ignorant thinking? Those who need help should seek it, whether they're in law school or practicing attorneys.
Imposter Syndrome strikes everyone at one point or another, I think. The feeling like we don't belong somewhere, or haven't earned the right to be at that nice job/ that awards ceremony/ that school.
A fan once asked the famous author Neil Gaiman about Imposter Syndrome. This is what he said:
"The best help I can offer is to point you to Amy Cuddy’s book, Presence. She talks about Imposter Syndrome (and interviews me in it) and offers helpful insight.
The second best help might be in the form of an anecdote. Some years ago, I was lucky enough invited to a gathering of great and good people: artists and scientists, writers and discoverers of things. And I felt that at any moment they would realise that I didn’t qualify to be there, among these people who had really done things.
On my second or third night there, I was standing at the back of the hall, while a musical entertainment happened, and I started talking to a very nice, polite, elderly gentleman about several things, including our shared first name. And then he pointed to the hall of people, and said words to the effect of, “I just look at all these people, and I think, what the heck am I doing here? They’ve made amazing things. I just went where I was sent.”
And I said, “Yes. But you were the first man on the moon. I think that counts for something.”
And I felt a bit better. Because if Neil Armstrong felt like an imposter, maybe everyone did. Maybe there weren’t any grown-ups, only people who had worked hard and also got lucky and were slightly out of their depth, all of us doing the best job we could, which is all we can really hope for."
I tend to agree with Neil. I think most of us feel like kids, masquerading as adults who know what they're doing (at least for the first few years in a profession or in a school), and that no one dare admits this. God knows I feel this way sometimes. There are situations where I wonder how am I the adult, and why isn't there a bigger authority figure to turn to. Not all the time. Just sometimes. And I think that's okay. We should admit it more, and quit making a stigma of our doubts and our feelings as though they are wrong and should be repressed.
Anyway, as for what can we do about it? Talk to people. I wonder if people wouldn't open up and go "Me too!" if one of their friends admitted they felt insecure or stressed or unhappy. It's easier to not be "the only one", ya know? We don't want to seem weak around each other for some reason. We want to look cool as a cucumber, but the truth is, we are all a mess inside. I know for a fact we will all be an utter wreck come that first year. No one will know what the hell they're doing.
I'm a big advocate of talk therapy! I agree that most everyone who takes it seriously can benefit from it. I have a serious mental health diagnosis and my life would be much different if not for cognitive behavioral therapy.
If you go into law school already stressed out and with little understanding of your own mental health, you will probably not enjoy it.
Perfectionism is part of it. Another thing is that a lot of law students may be really good at coping. Because they are a very bright and accomplished group of people on average, many law students may already be carrying psychological problems which they have not had to seek help for because they are naturally pretty good at coping with any challenges posed by their problem. If the problem remains unaddressed the stress of law school, the legal profession, and life simply compounds it until coping isn't enough.
Amen!
I think talking to both friends and/or a professional is massive! I also think it's key to not make school, work, or even studying for the LSAT your whole life. Take time for yourself: exercise, paint, play tennis, or rock climb! Whatever brings you joy and peace, HAS to remain a part of your life, regardless of how busy you are.
I worked 20+ hours a week while in undergrad and I felt I didn't have time for "extras". I had a bad period where I was irritable, felt scrappy all the time, and just unhappy. I joined an intramural soccer team(my only true love ☺) and the difference was immediate. It does immeasurable good to set aside you worries and your obligations and just be a kid for a minute!
I think it is self selection bias as well. You have kids all used to being top 10% going somewhere where they may not even be median. Lots of people are type A perfectionists or competitive in law school, hence why the high depression rates at Harvard. Personally, I am leaning towards UVA because the students and faculty are so supportive, because that matters to me.
What matters is changing your mindset. Go into law school and do your best, but be mentally prepared for the fact that you may work hard and not do as well as you would like, because everyone is smart and works hard. Make your mental health a priority and make genuine, supportive friends
This is why grades no longer exist at YHS.
I heard the high pass pass etc system in harvard lends itself to its own competitiveness. Although the lack of letter grades is better than letter grades, the highly sought after PI jobs in big fed require one to be above median
Yeah, I've heard this. :]
@xadrianas6x
Thank you so much for sharing this it is one of those stories that really brings you back down to earth and settles you I know in the future this will be a story that I refer back to for the rest of my life.
I feel like this issue isnt exclusive to law but common in all high stakes work environments. Law, in particular, deals with situations in where someone can either go to jail or go scotch free, where millions of dollars are in stake with complex deals. Making big money requires big sacrifice unless you have several passive income streams set up
Agreed, @westcoastbestcoast I bet Med students probably have a similar number of depression, mental illness and substance abuse. Maybe more. They often have 2 - 4 x's the debt load to boot!
I’ve seen a lot of information out there that law schools have the highest suicide rates. Not sure if it’s true or not.
I think mental health should be taken care of before during and after law school. Best to start before. I don’t think that finally taking the time to think about your emotional well-being right when law school starts is the best idea.
I can’t really say how one should do so during law school but for me I just work out a lot, meditate, and try to be self aware and self reflective. Go to spas, take myself out to lunch, spend time in nature. As to how to take care of others just ask how they’re feeling and show genuine interest in their wellbeing and react accordingly.
Counseling is a good option if you feel like you can’t cope. Not isolating yourself when you’re feeling down is important.
My attitude at my high stress job is like, this isn’t my company so I ultimately don’t really care if something goes wrong. I’m trying my best and working my hardest but if something out of my control happens I’m not gonna stress about it.
My friend who is just finishing up his last year in medical school will have over 250k in debt
That will be easy for him to pay off, I'd imagine. Still, that amount of debt hanging over your head has to feel pretty bad.
Yeah he seemer pretty cool with it. Didnt even really pay attention to the financial officers when they told him about the loan repayment optiobs
Perhaps a lot of these lawyers turn to alcohol and drugs as a coping method because it makes them feel less vulnerable than seeking counseling. I think there's still that stigma against people who deal with issues of mental health that they "can't cope" or "deal with it" so people just brush everything under the rug and hope it goes away, especially in big firms that thrive off competitive environments.
Another thing this discussion reminds me of is what one of my professors (a lawyer) said to us during our undergrad. He said that when he entered law school, 20 to 30 years ago, they were told they were the brightest class that had been admitted so far. But they say this every year, and if we go solely by cGPA and lsat scores, the standard is becoming higher and higher and each new class is brighter than the last. But despite that, the grade distribution is still the same. I'm sure that doesn't help with the stress and competitive nature that's inherent in this field. I mean, we're all trying our best to get the best lsat score we can so that we can get into the best law school. But it's not like it ends there; my friend, who hasn't been admitted yet, is already thinking about what she can do in first year law school to get a good placement during 1L summer. It's a stressful world and unless people are able to come up with healthy coping methods it seems almost inevitable that people will turn to substances to cope with it.
Yeah, people turn to booze all the time to avoid facing their issues. Lawyers are no exception. There are different types of intelligence: interpersonal, intrapersonal, emotional, logical, etc. I would say many professionals are logically quite intelligent, but often times they ignore the other, arguably more important parts of their 'self' at great expense.
I realize some of what I just wrote may be contentious. Regardless, I think these ideas are useful to discussions of LSAT test-taking mindset.
Another theory is that perhaps law students realize late in the school year that law school may not be what they expected. Because they invested so much time and money, they figure that they should just cope and deal with it.
There's actually an ABA booklet called "Mental Health for Law Students and the People that Care about them" I picked up a copy at Emory during my Admitted student visit, they had them printed out but since it's an ABA document it might be available... actually just googled it here it is: https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/administrative/lawyer_assistance/ls_colap_mental_health_toolkit_new.authcheckdam.pdf
To be a lawyer can be a heavy burden. If you think about it, one doesn't go to a lawyer for the usual "check-up" usually it's when something drastic or life threatening/changing is occurring. Usually it's at the lowest points of peoples lives, depending on the career you want to do.
I'm sure the stress and responsibility can be overwhelming for some.
Regardless if ones ignores their self care issues or not, sometimes it just comes down to the nature of this profession.
Being a lawyer isn't for everyone.
Finding a balance between the demands of work and personal life seems to be the key though.
Here's the secret most people don't notice or won't think to tell people... the majority of law school classes are K-JD, even at places they push for older student bodies... unless you've had a uniquely hard childhood and adolescence, law school will undoubtedly be the hardest thing you've ever done in your life... now imagine an environment with dozens or hundreds of other people simultaneously going through that together... the amplified anxiety is palpable...
What you need is something to turn the volume down on the whole experience... think about the first morning Edward Norton's character went to work after his first fight in Fight Club... it just turned the volume down on his whole experience... on the one hand you can go out and have experiences that are harder (for me it was military service and parenthood, among other things), or you can cultivate a meditation practice or something else to build mindfulness and resiliency... In the end you just need the perspective that there are far more important things in life than law school, which is not to say that it isn't important, but it's best to understand where it really falls relative to everything else.
People hate the curve but curves virtually guarantee that nobody fails out of law school... they might elect to leave... but if you show up day in and day out and put in effort then you'll make it through, just like anything else in life... when in doubt, just breathe...
This is a great discussion. I'm so grateful that y'all are so interested in having it!
Self-help groups are a definite must. If NU didn't already have them, I would start my own at the school I would be attending.
When it comes to overcoming imposture syndrome, I might recommend attending a weekend seminar with the Landmark Forum, which is a self-empowerment weekend event that is really good at helping you learn to step into your power as an individual. My roommate's have gone through it and it really changed their lives. I'm doing mine in June.