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Do you guys take TLS "dont even bother applying to law school" scare posts seriously?

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  • ramster1ramster1 Member
    edited April 2018 109 karma

    Well here's my perspective, which is no doubt coloring my opinions: I'm the ex-wife of a Boalt grad (we were together during his law school years and three stints in different big law firms. I have spent way too much of my life thinking about law, it's safe to say :smile: ). 20 years ago, the full tuition was around $15K/year (which students complained about, haha) and cost of living in the Bay Area was about half of what it is now, and he started with a $265K big law salary at a time where even I walked into his firm and the hiring partner asked if I wanted a job on the spot (they were desperate for scientists in our field at the time). Now I wouldn't be able to cajole them into an informational interview bc there is a glut of applicants with my background. (Fortunately, I'm not looking for a big law job). My ex's in-house salary is now around $150K at a company and he has decades of work experience. He got to work in his choice of locations and pay off his debts bc of the timing of his schooling and job searches. Now tuition is tripled and it's harder to land big law jobs in his field and cost of living has gone up. I'm not convinced my ex would land a job in the Bay Area out of law school at this point especially with an increased debt load to repay (so he'd need a net higher income or lower cost of living). And it used to be you could bow out relatively easily from big law if it turned out it wasn't what you wanted to do, but now it's quite a big investment.

    My assumption is that you folks (particularly the HYS crowd) will be very employable. I'm not at all trying to dissuade you from thinking that's the case. The only folks I know that were unemployed from among my T14 friends 20 years ago chose to be unemployed. I just worry about the students that go into any law school nowadays not understanding that $200k-300K really means you've invested in a particular long-term goal (landing a big salary job for which you would be paying $1-$2K/month above your cost of living to repay the debt over 10 years, which seems ok until you add a $3-5K/month mortgage or rent and $2K/month private preschool for each kid in the big cities), so either commit to doing all it will take to repay it (casting a wide net with your job search, hustling/networking, probably not going for PI jobs, maybe living lean for a while or marrying someone else who also works all the time or has a trust fund), or if you want to have the flexibility to do something else, do all you can to maximize scholarship money (better LSATs, or lesser schools counterbalanced with prior work experience/connections). People who chose either one of the scenarios in the latter camp aren't necessarily making a bad decision.

    Anyway, this is advice I'd give my own kids. Good luck to all of you...

  • westcoastbestcoastwestcoastbestcoast Alum Member
    3788 karma

    @ramster1 said:
    Well here's my perspective, which is no doubt coloring my opinions: I'm the ex-wife of a Boalt grad (we were together during his law school years and three stints in different big law firms. I have spent way too much of my life thinking about law, it's safe to say :smile: ). 20 years ago, the full tuition was around $15K/year (which students complained about, haha) and cost of living in the Bay Area was about half of what it is now, and he started with a $265K big law salary at a time where even I walked into his firm and the hiring partner asked if I wanted a job on the spot (they were desperate for scientists in our field at the time). Now I wouldn't be able to cajole them into an informational interview bc there is a glut of applicants with my background. (Fortunately, I'm not looking for a big law job). My ex's in-house salary is now around $150K at a company and he has decades of work experience. He got to work in his choice of locations and pay off his debts bc of the timing of his schooling and job searches. Now tuition is tripled and it's harder to land big law jobs in his field and cost of living has gone up. I'm not convinced my ex would land a job in the Bay Area out of law school at this point especially with an increased debt load to repay (so he'd need a net higher income or lower cost of living). And it used to be you could bow out relatively easily from big law if it turned out it wasn't what you wanted to do, but now it's quite a big investment.

    My assumption is that you folks (particularly the HYS crowd) will be very employable. I'm not at all trying to dissuade you from thinking that's the case. The only folks I know that were unemployed from among my T14 friends 20 years ago chose to be unemployed. I just worry about the students that go into any law school nowadays not understanding that $200k-300K really means you've invested in a particular long-term goal (landing a big salary job for which you would be paying $1-$2K/month above your cost of living to repay the debt over 10 years, which seems ok until you add a $3-5K/month mortgage or rent and $2K/month private preschool for each kid in the big cities), so either commit to doing all it will take to repay it (casting a wide net with your job search, hustling/networking, probably not going for PI jobs, maybe living lean for a while or marrying someone else who also works all the time or has a trust fund), or if you want to have the flexibility to do something else, do all you can to maximize scholarship money (better LSATs, or lesser schools counterbalanced with prior work experience/connections). People who chose either one of the scenarios in the latter camp aren't necessarily making a bad decision.

    Anyway, this is advice I'd give my own kids. Good luck to all of you...

    Yeah. All of my coworkers in other fields in medicine tell me to never underestimate the impact or a six figure loan. Remember that biglaw is neither guranteed nor stable. Once you get the job its all about navigating office politics, making sure thst you are sync with your practice group, making sure they dont back stab you. My friends sibling who is in biglaw told me how you need to do alot of research upfront before bidding biglaw. If you plan to practice in X group which has been lateraling often, theres a chance that you may not stay in thst group for long if you join. Also realize that besides gpa cutoffs and school preferences, biglaw firms require specific resume experiences. For example, some may favor law review over moot court.

  • goingfor99thgoingfor99th Free Trial Member
    3072 karma

    @westcoastbestcoast said:

    @ramster1 said:
    Well here's my perspective, which is no doubt coloring my opinions: I'm the ex-wife of a Boalt grad (we were together during his law school years and three stints in different big law firms. I have spent way too much of my life thinking about law, it's safe to say :smile: ). 20 years ago, the full tuition was around $15K/year (which students complained about, haha) and cost of living in the Bay Area was about half of what it is now, and he started with a $265K big law salary at a time where even I walked into his firm and the hiring partner asked if I wanted a job on the spot (they were desperate for scientists in our field at the time). Now I wouldn't be able to cajole them into an informational interview bc there is a glut of applicants with my background. (Fortunately, I'm not looking for a big law job). My ex's in-house salary is now around $150K at a company and he has decades of work experience. He got to work in his choice of locations and pay off his debts bc of the timing of his schooling and job searches. Now tuition is tripled and it's harder to land big law jobs in his field and cost of living has gone up. I'm not convinced my ex would land a job in the Bay Area out of law school at this point especially with an increased debt load to repay (so he'd need a net higher income or lower cost of living). And it used to be you could bow out relatively easily from big law if it turned out it wasn't what you wanted to do, but now it's quite a big investment.

    My assumption is that you folks (particularly the HYS crowd) will be very employable. I'm not at all trying to dissuade you from thinking that's the case. The only folks I know that were unemployed from among my T14 friends 20 years ago chose to be unemployed. I just worry about the students that go into any law school nowadays not understanding that $200k-300K really means you've invested in a particular long-term goal (landing a big salary job for which you would be paying $1-$2K/month above your cost of living to repay the debt over 10 years, which seems ok until you add a $3-5K/month mortgage or rent and $2K/month private preschool for each kid in the big cities), so either commit to doing all it will take to repay it (casting a wide net with your job search, hustling/networking, probably not going for PI jobs, maybe living lean for a while or marrying someone else who also works all the time or has a trust fund), or if you want to have the flexibility to do something else, do all you can to maximize scholarship money (better LSATs, or lesser schools counterbalanced with prior work experience/connections). People who chose either one of the scenarios in the latter camp aren't necessarily making a bad decision.

    Anyway, this is advice I'd give my own kids. Good luck to all of you...

    Yeah. All of my coworkers in other fields in medicine tell me to never underestimate the impact or a six figure loan. Remember that biglaw is neither guranteed nor stable. Once you get the job its all about navigating office politics, making sure thst you are sync with your practice group, making sure they dont back stab you. My friends sibling who is in biglaw told me how you need to do alot of research upfront before bidding biglaw. If you plan to practice in X group which has been lateraling often, theres a chance that you may not stay in thst group for long if you join. Also realize that besides gpa cutoffs and school preferences, biglaw firms require specific resume experiences. For example, some may favor law review over moot court.

    I think it's most important to have a good LRAP. This is an option at top schools. For now...

  • lTexlawzlTexlawz Free Trial Member
    277 karma

    I take what TLS says with a grain of salt. I believe that there are two kind of people that want to be a lawyer.

    1) The kind that is only in it for the money and has not real interest in practicing law and wants to be rich only. They feel it is lottery ticket they have been waiting for.

    2) the kind where law is a passion for them and money is not the center of the universe.

    I am in category 2 and very interested in being a lawyer and passionated about it.

    But, if my opponent went to tier 1 and acted like a snob towards me because I went the school that was right for me and learn to fight well in court. I say it is not the school. It is the person who has the passion for the law and will fight for their client that will always win through thick and thin.

  • goingfor99thgoingfor99th Free Trial Member
    edited April 2018 3072 karma

    @lTexlawz said:
    I take what TLS says with a grain of salt. I believe that there are two kind of people that want to be a lawyer.

    1) The kind that is only in it for the money and has not real interest in practicing law and wants to be rich only. They feel it is lottery ticket they have been waiting for.

    2) the kind where law is a passion for them and money is not the center of the universe.

    I am in category 2 and very interested in being a lawyer and passionated about it.

    But, if my opponent went to tier 1 and acted like a snob towards me because I went the school that was right for me and learn to fight well in court. I say it is not the school. It is the person who has the passion for the law and will fight for their client that will always win through thick and thin.

    Schools have certain cultures, TLS has a certain culture, same with 7sage and every substantial community everywhere. Law and politics are intimately intertwined, and I think that whether they admit it or not most people become interested in the law in part because of politics. This is to say: in law school, don't be surprised when people argue/fight/mess around with you for various unknown reasons. TLS is adversarial like that, too.

    I'm not sure exactly how prevalent snobbery is at schools, though I'm sure it exists in abundance!

  • Seeking PerfectionSeeking Perfection Alum Member
    4428 karma

    ****> @lTexlawz said:

    I take what TLS says with a grain of salt. I believe that there are two kind of people that want to be a lawyer.

    1) The kind that is only in it for the money and has not real interest in practicing law and wants to be rich only. They feel it is lottery ticket they have been waiting for.

    2) the kind where law is a passion for them and money is not the center of the universe.

    I am in category 2 and very interested in being a lawyer and passionated about it.

    But, if my opponent went to tier 1 and acted like a snob towards me because I went the school that was right for me and learn to fight well in court. I say it is not the school. It is the person who has the passion for the law and will fight for their client that will always win through thick and thin.

    I posit a third kind of person who cares about money, but doesn't have it at the center of their universe. Such a person might choose to go to law school because they want to practice law. They might then do everything possible to minimize their debt and attend a law school that had as good employment outcomes and as good an LRAP as possible to help pay off the debt they incurred following their dream to be a lawyer.

  • goingfor99thgoingfor99th Free Trial Member
    edited April 2018 3072 karma

    @"Seeking Perfection" said:
    ****> @lTexlawz said:

    I take what TLS says with a grain of salt. I believe that there are two kind of people that want to be a lawyer.

    1) The kind that is only in it for the money and has not real interest in practicing law and wants to be rich only. They feel it is lottery ticket they have been waiting for.

    2) the kind where law is a passion for them and money is not the center of the universe.

    I am in category 2 and very interested in being a lawyer and passionated about it.

    But, if my opponent went to tier 1 and acted like a snob towards me because I went the school that was right for me and learn to fight well in court. I say it is not the school. It is the person who has the passion for the law and will fight for their client that will always win through thick and thin.

    I posit a third kind of person who cares about money, but doesn't have it at the center of their universe. Such a person might choose to go to law school because they want to practice law. They might then do everything possible to minimize their debt and attend a law school that had as good employment outcomes and as good an LRAP as possible to help pay off the debt they incurred following their dream to be a lawyer.

    But, like, everyone cares about money, right? I mean, even the rich kids care about how much debt they owe a school because it's like bragging rights to them.

  • BirdLaw818BirdLaw818 Free Trial Member
    edited April 2018 553 karma

    Total BS. People who say that are the ones who only know how to read their books and get spoon fed everything else. It's not t-14 or bust. ThAts crap. I know people who graduated lower ranked schools and hustled, got a 70k starting job out of school.

    Now, get into the best school you can, be REALISTIC, but don't listen to TLS. They're children who like to stand in line to get told where to go. And for people like that, I think that the problem extends beyond just getting a job after law school, but being able to live a functional free life.

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