Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

New ATL rankings

Leah M BLeah M B Alum Member

The 2018 Above The Law rankings are live:
https://abovethelaw.com/2018/05/the-2018-law-school-rankings-are-here-with-major-employment-driven-changes-at-the-top/

As a reminder or orientation for anyone new to these, they are based mostly on employment outcomes so generally look very different from the US News rankings. These are not "official" rankings like US News are considered, but I personally think these are just as (or in some ways more) important. A really interesting and practical way to view law schools.

Comments

  • tringo335tringo335 Alum Member
    3679 karma

    Thanks for posting; I love comparing ATL to USNWR!

  • tringo335tringo335 Alum Member
    3679 karma

    How true do you think this mention is from the article?:

    "It’s hard for me to look at these numbers and not see the invisible hand of #MAGA supremacy at play. As Trump and McConnell take over the federal judiciary, it’s interesting to me that more people from Chicago and UVA and Duke are getting clerkships, while fewer people from Harvard and Yale are. It could be a one-year blip… it could be a 25-year blip if the Federalist Society and Heritage Foundation continue to have their way."

  • Habeas PorpoiseHabeas Porpoise Alum Member Sage
    edited May 2018 1861 karma

    Oh yeah, ATL rankings are solid. Thanks for posting!
    I believe the data they use is more current, too. I remember them mentioning it in their podcast -- that USN's rankings are based on data that's two years older than the year they note for the ranking.

  • Habeas PorpoiseHabeas Porpoise Alum Member Sage
    edited May 2018 1861 karma

    @tringo335 said:
    How true do you think this mention is from the article?:

    "It’s hard for me to look at these numbers and not see the invisible hand of #MAGA supremacy at play. As Trump and McConnell take over the federal judiciary, it’s interesting to me that more people from Chicago and UVA and Duke are getting clerkships, while fewer people from Harvard and Yale are. It could be a one-year blip… it could be a 25-year blip if the Federalist Society and Heritage Foundation continue to have their way."

    Hm...it could be that. But couldn't it also be self-selection? I'd imagine people are less likely to apply for positions within a government they disagree with (even if we say that the branch is supposed to be non-partisan). Or maybe faith in governmental institutions has decreased in general and the schools that normally have students feeding into those positions are seeing similar students reconsider. I think the way it's written ("are getting clerkships") makes me think that the same number of people from each school are applying but not being chosen, but I'd have to see the data.

    Edit: Either way, I just don't know much about the federal route with law schools and how application/selection works so I'm making a guess.

  • tringo335tringo335 Alum Member
    3679 karma

    @"Habeas Porpoise" said:

    @tringo335 said:
    How true do you think this mention is from the article?:

    "It’s hard for me to look at these numbers and not see the invisible hand of #MAGA supremacy at play. As Trump and McConnell take over the federal judiciary, it’s interesting to me that more people from Chicago and UVA and Duke are getting clerkships, while fewer people from Harvard and Yale are. It could be a one-year blip… it could be a 25-year blip if the Federalist Society and Heritage Foundation continue to have their way."

    Hm...it could be that. But couldn't it also be self-selection? I'd imagine people are less likely to apply for positions within a government they disagree with (even if we say that the branch is supposed to be non-partisan). Or maybe faith in governmental institutions has decreased in general and the schools that normally have students feeding into those positions are seeing similar students reconsider. I think the way it's written ("are getting clerkships") makes me think that the same number of people from each school are applying but not being chosen, but I'd have to see the data.

    Edit: Either way, I just don't know much about the federal route with law schools and how application/selection works so I'm making a guess.

    Hmm could be a variety of causes ... that's an interesting hypothesis. But if it were plausible we'd have to assume that the schools who have more students going into clerkships this year have student bodies that are more right leaning. Which could be true! Who knows. Would be interesting to find out!

  • tringo335tringo335 Alum Member
    3679 karma

    @"Habeas Porpoise" said:
    Oh yeah, ATL rankings are solid. Thanks for posting!
    I believe the data they use is more current, too. I remember them mentioning it in their podcast -- that USN's rankings are based on data that's two years older than the year they note for the ranking.

    Oooo did not know that!

  • Leah M BLeah M B Alum Member
    8392 karma

    @tringo335 said:
    How true do you think this mention is from the article?:

    "It’s hard for me to look at these numbers and not see the invisible hand of #MAGA supremacy at play. As Trump and McConnell take over the federal judiciary, it’s interesting to me that more people from Chicago and UVA and Duke are getting clerkships, while fewer people from Harvard and Yale are. It could be a one-year blip… it could be a 25-year blip if the Federalist Society and Heritage Foundation continue to have their way."

    I don't know. It's possible but I think it's a stretch. You could also say, maybe this is just a nod toward diversity and judges are intentionally being more open to selecting students that don't come from the T3. Or it could be self-selection on the parts of students - if the judges are more right-leaning, perhaps more students from the right-leaning schools are applying for those clerkships. I haven't looked up the number of judges that have been installed under this administration to see how dramatic the swing is. But it does sound like they are bringing in extremely conservative judges so the trickle down effect there could make sense.

  • TexAgAaronTexAgAaron Legacy Member
    1723 karma

    Been waiting for these! Thanks @"Leah M B" !

  • LCMama2017LCMama2017 Alum Member
    2134 karma

    Wow, this is so cool. I never hear of ATL but looks like a great tool. Thank you for posting!

  • ATLsat_2019ATLsat_2019 Legacy Member
    455 karma

    I love the practicality of the ATL rankings. @LCMama2017 they have a great podcast as well! The episodes are short and easy and they've done a few about law school admissions lately that are worth a listen.

  • Seeking PerfectionSeeking Perfection Alum Member
    4423 karma

    @"Habeas Porpoise" said:

    @tringo335 said:
    How true do you think this mention is from the article?:

    "It’s hard for me to look at these numbers and not see the invisible hand of #MAGA supremacy at play. As Trump and McConnell take over the federal judiciary, it’s interesting to me that more people from Chicago and UVA and Duke are getting clerkships, while fewer people from Harvard and Yale are. It could be a one-year blip… it could be a 25-year blip if the Federalist Society and Heritage Foundation continue to have their way."

    Hm...it could be that. But couldn't it also be self-selection? I'd imagine people are less likely to apply for positions within a government they disagree with (even if we say that the branch is supposed to be non-partisan). Or maybe faith in governmental institutions has decreased in general and the schools that normally have students feeding into those positions are seeing similar students reconsider. I think the way it's written ("are getting clerkships") makes me think that the same number of people from each school are applying but not being chosen, but I'd have to see the data.

    Edit: Either way, I just don't know much about the federal route with law schools and how application/selection works so I'm making a guess.

    I'm sure it is self-selection, but not necessarilly in that people from more liberal law schools are not applying to clerkships.

    It is probably more that conservatives self-select into more conservative law schools and liberals into more liberal law schools and then these students have an easier time getting positions with judges they agree with. But I'd bet that a conservative student who went to Yale or Harvard would still have fine chances of getting a clerkship and oppositely that a liberal at U Chicago would also have their chances hurt.

    So by attracting more conservative applicants when there are more conservative judges, law schools get a boost in their clerkship numbers without actually getting any better at placing clerks.

  • tringo335tringo335 Alum Member
    3679 karma

    @"Seeking Perfection" said:

    So by attracting more conservative applicants when there are more conservative judges, law schools get a boost in their clerkship numbers without actually getting any better at placing clerks.

    Ooo that would be really interesting to find out if schools consciously did that.

  • Leah M BLeah M B Alum Member
    8392 karma

    @tringo335 said:

    @"Seeking Perfection" said:

    So by attracting more conservative applicants when there are more conservative judges, law schools get a boost in their clerkship numbers without actually getting any better at placing clerks.

    Ooo that would be really interesting to find out if schools consciously did that.

    Unlikely that's the scenario for this year, since they would have had to recruit students 3-4 years ago anticipating an influx of conservative judges.

    But yes otherwise, @"Seeking Perfection" that's more or less what I meant. That the increase in conservative judges now could mean an increase in clerks from more conservative schools for that exact reason. There are now more conservative judges for the students at the more conservative schools to apply to. And those schools naturally tend to have the more conservative students. Possibly more students from those schools are either applying or same number applying but more being selected because of a conservative swing in the judges.

  • iamcardibriiamcardibri Alum Member
    edited June 2018 314 karma

    Thanks for posting this!

    I'm really excited to see schools like Temple University kinda sorta up there in terms of employment outcomes.. Even though my dream is to go T14, schools like Temple are probably a more realistic expectation due to my less than stellar GPA. Not to mention, Temple offers some pretty solid financial aid. Given these ATL rankings, I'll definitely be applying to Temple this fall! Sad to see UC Irvine absent from this list despite their alluring USNWR ranking strides...

  • Leah M BLeah M B Alum Member
    8392 karma

    @iamcardibri said:
    Thanks for posting this!

    I'm really excited to see schools like Temple University kinda sorta up there in terms of employment outcomes.. Even though my dream is to go T14, schools like Temple are probably a more realistic expectation due to my less than stellar GPA. Not to mention, Temple offers some pretty solid financial aid. Given these ATL rankings, I'll definitely be applying to Temple this fall! Sad to see UC Irvine absent from this list despite their alluring USNWR ranking strides...

    For sure part of the problem with UCI here is just how new they are. Part of the rankings formula here includes how many alums are judges and number of Supreme Court clerks. Not enough history to have anything in those areas.

  • westcoastbestcoastwestcoastbestcoast Alum Member
    3788 karma

    @tringo335 said:
    How true do you think this mention is from the article?:

    "It’s hard for me to look at these numbers and not see the invisible hand of #MAGA supremacy at play. As Trump and McConnell take over the federal judiciary, it’s interesting to me that more people from Chicago and UVA and Duke are getting clerkships, while fewer people from Harvard and Yale are. It could be a one-year blip… it could be a 25-year blip if the Federalist Society and Heritage Foundation continue to have their way."

    It could also be true that more people are deciding to opt for biglaw to service their debts. Especially with many biglaw firms paying a base salary of 180k, many are seeing that the trade off of losing that years worth of income isnt worth doing clerkships for.

  • westcoastbestcoastwestcoastbestcoast Alum Member
    3788 karma

    @"Leah M B" said:

    @iamcardibri said:
    Thanks for posting this!

    I'm really excited to see schools like Temple University kinda sorta up there in terms of employment outcomes.. Even though my dream is to go T14, schools like Temple are probably a more realistic expectation due to my less than stellar GPA. Not to mention, Temple offers some pretty solid financial aid. Given these ATL rankings, I'll definitely be applying to Temple this fall! Sad to see UC Irvine absent from this list despite their alluring USNWR ranking strides...

    For sure part of the problem with UCI here is just how new they are. Part of the rankings formula here includes how many alums are judges and number of Supreme Court clerks. Not enough history to have anything in those areas.

    ATL rankings are based on schools that they claim have national reach. Im presuming that irvine is absent because ATL doesnt think UCI has national reach.

  • Maddie D.Maddie D. Alum Member
    325 karma

    @iamcardibri said:
    Thanks for posting this!

    I'm really excited to see schools like Temple University kinda sorta up there in terms of employment outcomes.. Even though my dream is to go T14, schools like Temple are probably a more realistic expectation due to my less than stellar GPA. Not to mention, Temple offers some pretty solid financial aid. Given these ATL rankings, I'll definitely be applying to Temple this fall! Sad to see UC Irvine absent from this list despite their alluring USNWR ranking strides...

    Haven't posted on here in quite some time now that my LSAT journey is through (hi everyone!), but if it helps you at all, I got a full ride to Temple, visited, and was REALLY blown away by the students, profs, clinics, and overall atmosphere there. In fact, I preferred it over many of the other higher-ranked schools I visited. I am so excited to get started at Temple this fall and I'm also pumped to see them getting recognition for pretty stellar employment. If you could see yourself working in Philly (which is a great and truly underrated city, but I'm biased because I live here :wink: ) then I'd absolutely check it out. And even if you aren't set on Philly, it still seems like a fantastic nationally recognized program. Anyway, hope everyone's doing great :)

  • iamcardibriiamcardibri Alum Member
    314 karma

    @"Maddie D." said:

    Haven't posted on here in quite some time now that my LSAT journey is through (hi everyone!), but if it helps you at all, I got a full ride to Temple, visited, and was REALLY blown away by the students, profs, clinics, and overall atmosphere there. In fact, I preferred it over many of the other higher-ranked schools I visited. I am so excited to get started at Temple this fall and I'm also pumped to see them getting recognition for pretty stellar employment.

    Congrats on the full ride!!! That's what I'll be striving for in the coming months... I'm already above their 75th percentile for the LSAT but I'm at their 25th percentile for GPA :neutral: Hopefully I still have a chance at scholarships! :smiley:

  • LCMama2017LCMama2017 Alum Member
    2134 karma

    @"Maddie D." said:

    @iamcardibri said:
    Thanks for posting this!

    I'm really excited to see schools like Temple University kinda sorta up there in terms of employment outcomes.. Even though my dream is to go T14, schools like Temple are probably a more realistic expectation due to my less than stellar GPA. Not to mention, Temple offers some pretty solid financial aid. Given these ATL rankings, I'll definitely be applying to Temple this fall! Sad to see UC Irvine absent from this list despite their alluring USNWR ranking strides...

    Haven't posted on here in quite some time now that my LSAT journey is through (hi everyone!), but if it helps you at all, I got a full ride to Temple, visited, and was REALLY blown away by the students, profs, clinics, and overall atmosphere there. In fact, I preferred it over many of the other higher-ranked schools I visited. I am so excited to get started at Temple this fall and I'm also pumped to see them getting recognition for pretty stellar employment. If you could see yourself working in Philly (which is a great and truly underrated city, but I'm biased because I live here :wink: ) then I'd absolutely check it out. And even if you aren't set on Philly, it still seems like a fantastic nationally recognized program. Anyway, hope everyone's doing great :)

    That's great! When I visited Temple I got the same vibe. Everyone was so helpful with all my questions and were very willing to help me out. Do you live on campus? My commute would be long (an hour) so I've been thinking of staying on campus at whatever law school I get in.

  • Leah M BLeah M B Alum Member
    8392 karma

    @westcoastbestcoast said:

    @"Leah M B" said:

    @iamcardibri said:
    Thanks for posting this!

    I'm really excited to see schools like Temple University kinda sorta up there in terms of employment outcomes.. Even though my dream is to go T14, schools like Temple are probably a more realistic expectation due to my less than stellar GPA. Not to mention, Temple offers some pretty solid financial aid. Given these ATL rankings, I'll definitely be applying to Temple this fall! Sad to see UC Irvine absent from this list despite their alluring USNWR ranking strides...

    For sure part of the problem with UCI here is just how new they are. Part of the rankings formula here includes how many alums are judges and number of Supreme Court clerks. Not enough history to have anything in those areas.

    ATL rankings are based on schools that they claim have national reach. Im presuming that irvine is absent because ATL doesnt think UCI has national reach.

    I don't think that's the issue. I don't think they pick and choose schools to rank. The way their formula is calculated though, it would make UCI a lot lower. 30% of their scoring is "quality jobs", which ATL defines as biglaw and federal clerkships. I get the reasoning for that; those positions create the most lucrative careers. But UCI has significant PI/government placement. 20% of their grads went into those areas, which would be a big hit in this ranking formula. Also as I mentioned earlier, they weight 5% each on SCOTUS clerks and federal judgeships. UCI doesn't have the history there to produce those right now.

    As for their biglaw numbers being low, UCLA and USC take most of those positions in the area. I wouldn't be surprised if UCI starts going up in those over the next 5-10 years, but it takes a while to build a reputation and carve out their place.

  • FixedDiceFixedDice Legacy Member
    1804 karma

    One thing I couldn't help but notice for the past few years is how low NYU and Columbia have been placing compared to their USN rankings (relatively speaking, of course). One might think something is wrong with New York in general, but Cornell is doing quite well. The size of student body seems to be a significant factor in job prospects.

    Of course, Harvard is doing quite well in spite of its enormous student population, but... it's Harvard.

  • westcoastbestcoastwestcoastbestcoast Alum Member
    3788 karma

    @"Leah M B" said:

    @westcoastbestcoast said:

    @"Leah M B" said:

    @iamcardibri said:
    Thanks for posting this!

    I'm really excited to see schools like Temple University kinda sorta up there in terms of employment outcomes.. Even though my dream is to go T14, schools like Temple are probably a more realistic expectation due to my less than stellar GPA. Not to mention, Temple offers some pretty solid financial aid. Given these ATL rankings, I'll definitely be applying to Temple this fall! Sad to see UC Irvine absent from this list despite their alluring USNWR ranking strides...

    For sure part of the problem with UCI here is just how new they are. Part of the rankings formula here includes how many alums are judges and number of Supreme Court clerks. Not enough history to have anything in those areas.

    ATL rankings are based on schools that they claim have national reach. Im presuming that irvine is absent because ATL doesnt think UCI has national reach.

    I don't think that's the issue. I don't think they pick and choose schools to rank. The way their formula is calculated though, it would make UCI a lot lower. 30% of their scoring is "quality jobs", which ATL defines as biglaw and federal clerkships. I get the reasoning for that; those positions create the most lucrative careers. But UCI has significant PI/government placement. 20% of their grads went into those areas, which would be a big hit in this ranking formula. Also as I mentioned earlier, they weight 5% each on SCOTUS clerks and federal judgeships. UCI doesn't have the history there to produce those right now.

    As for their biglaw numbers being low, UCLA and USC take most of those positions in the area. I wouldn't be surprised if UCI starts going up in those over the next 5-10 years, but it takes a while to build a reputation and carve out their place.

    I believe ATL had that reasoning on the link, that the reason why certain schools didnt show up was because a lack of national reach. You do bring up good points though.

  • Maddie D.Maddie D. Alum Member
    325 karma

    That's great! When I visited Temple I got the same vibe. Everyone was so helpful with all my questions and were very willing to help me out. Do you live on campus? My commute would be long (an hour) so I've been thinking of staying on campus at whatever law school I get in.

    Hey there sorry for the delay, I don't live on campus but I live right in Germantown so my commute is about 20 minutes by car or train. I've heard good things about their on-campus housing though. I believe a lot of it was just renovated within the last year or two. Hope that helps!

  • Maddie D.Maddie D. Alum Member
    325 karma

    Congrats on the full ride!!! That's what I'll be striving for in the coming months... I'm already above their 75th percentile for the LSAT but I'm at their 25th percentile for GPA :neutral: Hopefully I still have a chance at scholarships! :smiley:

    Thanks so much! With each month you practice, you'll learn to kick the LSAT's ass even harder and if you're above the 75th already, there's most likely money to be had for you! Their mission has always been to make quality schooling accessible to people from a lot of backgrounds and I'm impressed that they carry that into their law program. Good luck!

Sign In or Register to comment.