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Related Discussions
Always waive your right, unethical to see a copy?
tekken1225
Alum Member
Hey guys, so is it recommended to always waive your right to see your LOR?
A brief search here seems to indicate that is so. Just wanted to confirm.
Also, if I do waive the right, would it be unethical to ask my recommender to see a copy of the letter before he submits it? Just trying to do the right thing.
Thanks!
Comments
Yes, that is always recommended. Some schools won't take them if you haven't waived your rights.
I would avoid asking, if he is nice he will send it to you after.
Waiving the right to see your LOR means that you can't demand that the schools lets you see it once its submitted. If your writer chooses to let you see it, you haven't violated that agreement at all. In my opinion, this means that it would not be unethical. BUT, it might offend your LOR writer and make them think that you don't have faith in them
If they offer, then you can read it and still say you waived the right to see it, even though they showed it to you (because it was unsolicited). You cannot ask to see it if you’re going to waive your rights. Generally you want to waive your rights because it gives more weight to the recommendation.
Yes, you should always officially waive your right with LSAC. However, it is totally fine for you to see the letter if your recommender is ok with showing it to you or lets you read it over.
What I did was when I emailed my recommenders, I asked that if they were comfortable with it, I'd appreciate having a copy "for my files" just in case it needs to be uploaded anywhere else, etc. Kind of left it vague and open ended. One of my writers sent me a copy, the other 2 didn't. I didn't press the issue with the other 2. I figured if they were ok with it, they would've sent it to me. So, I'd say it's ok to do something like that. Politely ask if you want, but leave plenty of room for them to say no or not share it with you.
I'd avoid asking that. They will probably wonder if you don't trust them, which could damage your relationship if you ever happen to run into them in the future. Also, if they really were enthusiastically praising you in their letter, it's somewhat doubtful they'd want you to read it. I'm sure you know there are positive things you might say about someone in private that you might worry would seem over the top or excessively flattering if the person were to hear/read it themself. This is why it's best to go with professors who you believe will write you enthusiastic letters of support; and it's also why you should not be afraid to ask if they feel they can write you a strong letter and be sure to give them a way out just in case they can't. If any hesitation is expressed, go with someone else.
If your reason for wanting the letter is to see if anything negative, qualifying, or cautionary was said about you, who's to say the professor couldn't have just edited it out before giving you a "copy" of it? Trust your professors and go with your gut w/r/t who will write you the best letters.
All of my recommenders sent me their letter to review for accuracy (times/dates/etc.) before uploading it. I thought that was just standard procedure or common courtesy. I see now from the above comments that I was mistaken.
However, my situation is quite different and I'm not having any of my college professors as recommenders--I graduated many years ago.
But, in light of what has been said, I sit here in contemplation of "what if I was in your shoes" and it makes me wonder how I would handle it. I think @ExcludedMiddle has the best approach and correctly points out the glaring fact that: if you've waived your rights to view the letter--you've no idea what they've uploaded. So, in my case, yes, I have copies of all the letters, but they could've easily just edited them before uploading or uploaded a different document entirely.
This would scare the living shit out of me. My anxiety would be off the charts in this scenario. Yikes! If someone has nothing but positive things to say about you, why would they not disclose a copy to you? And, I'm not saying they didn't, I'm just saying that's what would be eating away at me. That would drive me nuts.
Obviously, the answer is you want to waive your right to view the LOR. That's settled. So, knowing that you're waiving that right, I think it's important to only ask for an LOR from someone that you are absolutely certain is not going to throw you a curve ball. If you have that on lockdown, who cares if they send you a copy or not? Like I said, it didn't even occur to me to ask my recommenders (4) and every single one of them sent me a copy to review before they uploaded it. Now, what they actually uploaded, I'll never know--but I'm absolutely certain they'd never throw me a curve ball. So, that's the important part.
Just don't ask for LOR's from people you don't know particularly well or who don't know you particularly well. Most of the schools I've looked at only accept a handful of LOR's anyway (the most I've seen so far is 4, surely there are some that accept more, I just haven't come across them yet). If I could only submit 4 LOR's, I'm sure even the old college grad Supernovice could come up with 4 solid people in his life who could support him much better than an "iffy" college professor that had him for a few classes at best.
I’m also in that situation—graduated from undergrad in 2008. Did you double check that the law schools don’t mind professional recs? One of the schools I’m applying to, Brooklyn Law School, specifically says they really only want academic recs. They say if you use a professional Rec it should speak to your academic aptitude.
I haven't encountered that yet, but, most of my recommendations speak to this to some degree. I served a full career in the military and completed my degree with distance learning, so to find a professor that I sat in an actual class with, I'd have to go back more than 20 years--they could be dead by now. If not, they certainly wouldn't remember me well enough to write an honest LOR. Not to mention, who would they be writing it for? The "me" 20 years ago who sucked at life and was fundamentally clueless... It would be very impractical.
The fact that you are asking this suggests that you don't know much about law school or the lawyering profession. It also suggests that you haven't talked to lawyers or people who have went to law school.
Being "ethical" in law means following the rules exactly as written. There is a list of a bunch of things you can't do. If you do something that isn't on the list, that does not count as unethical. If you go to law school, they will teach you a class about ethics. In this class, they will tell you everything you can't do. Then they will teach you how to go around those rules. Talk to lawyers and they will tell you. My professor (who has a JD) confirmed this. Lawyers do borderline unethical crap every day. One of the biggest falsehoods about the profession is that lawyers are these mythical creatures who are held to some high moral standard. Only in certain ways as required by the rules. Law is a game. It is about winning and billing your clients.
So, to answer your question, no it is not unethical. You are free to look at your LOR if the professor is willing to give it to you. Under federal law, you have a legal right to look at your law school file if you attend the school. I'm pretty sure this is true even if you waive your right during the LSAC process. It mostly means you can't ask to look at it if they don't offer you admission. The main reason to waive the right is so the law school doesn't question the authenticity of the LOR author.
Dude, that's why I'm trying to go to law school, isn't it? But thanks for this uhhh... helpful... comment.
Thanks everyone else for your replies! I shall follow your suggestions.
Yeah not everyone has the glory of being surrounded by profs with JD or lawyers like you. Don't start schooling people just because someone told you what "ethical" means in law. Don't reply with that kind of attitude.
@Supernovice Hahaha... yes I kind of hate not seeing the letters. But I know that both of them gave me hearty recommendations and trust them very much. One is just a super introvert and I didn’t expect him to send me the letter. I think he’d just generally feel weird and uncomfortable sending me something that he wrote about me. I’m a little the same way and I get it. The other is a former professor who I still have a good relationship with, even though I graduated 12 years ago. I was an arts major and he’s just super spacey and disorganized. I was pleasantly surprised he even wrote the letter and turned it in! I was sure he’d never remember it haha. I trust the content, although I do slightly worry about the quality of that letter in general - again, just because he’s on the spacey, type B side hah. Not sure how eloquent of a writer he is. But I trust all the writers very much, so I didn’t sweat the ones who didn’t send theirs to me.
@"Leah M B" Agreed. I'd have the same concerns, especially about the quality of writing from a batty art teacher. JK! I would seriously reconsider even submitting that one having not seen it.
This happened to me: one of my recommenders (a close workmate/supervisor/friend/even a roommate for some time) managed to misspell my name throughout the entire letter. I have a name that can be spelled multiple ways (think, for example: Stacy, Stacie, Stacey, etc) and this dude I've known for 25 years dicked it up in my LOR. Thank God he sent it to me for review because the things he said with familiarity would be totally incongruent with him not even knowing the correct spelling of my name.
What's up with all the salt, Bro? Dude was just asking a very reasonable question...
To be honest, to me it "suggests" more about the person making the statement than it does about the OP.
On the other hand, I've been at a local legal clinic for 6+ months now, working with / for multiple attorneys (in addition to buying coffee for a few public defenders in my area). Not one has given me a lecture on professional legal ethics yet. I wonder if I'm doing it all wrong...
Don't reply with that kind of attitude.
Or what?
I stand by the comment. Nothing I said was incorrect. I have seen other people be a lot more disrespectful in these discussions. I thought I was pretty nice actually.
Hi everyone,
I think this question already has a lot of good answers, but for what it's worth: yes, I would waive, and no, I don't think it's unethical to see your LOR, or even ask for it.
The real question is whether asking to see your LOR will put a strain on your relationship with your recommender, and that totally depends on, well, your relationship with your recommender.
Alright, who invited Scut Farkus? Come on, raise your hand...
Lol, haha.
That’s your opinion. I thought the question was nonsensical and I responded in kind. Why would it be unethical to look at your LOR if you have a legal right to the information? That’s why they ask you to waive your rights...
So you gave lawyers coffee and are wondering why they didn’t talk to you about ethics? Ok...
@"the truth hurts"
Yeah, it is a little bit of a strange question in the grand scheme of things and perhaps it could've been worded better. And you're correct that that is why they have to ask you to waive your legal right to see it. And no one is suggesting your reply was breaking the forum rules.
I think you're missing the point or maybe you're not and you just don't care--makes no difference to me. What the general consensus is and what is being pointed out to you (up until now, in a roundabout sort of way) is that you're acting like a condescending jerk and it's not appreciated. It's completely uncalled for and of zero value to anyone. You think it makes you sound smart or cool, but you're really just embarrassing yourself.
It's only unethical if you get caught
Ok, I let your first post slide but I really shouldn't have. You actually are on the verge of breaking rule #1 on this forum:
See: https://7sage.com/discussion/#/discussion/15/forum-rules
Yes, obviously the people on this forum are not lawyers, haven't gone to law school, and may or may not have spoken with a lot of lawyers. This is an LSAT and law school admissions forum - it's inherent that people here don't have hands-on law experience. That doesn't mean that you can or should speak down to anyone for this. This is a place to help each other out and answer questions when you can. The snark and condescension is unnecessary.
And for the record, there is indeed a difference between being unlawful and unethical. I actually now just feel bad for you that you haven't been in touch with enough lawyers who are ethical people, that don't see their job as being only about working the system to get what they want. Sure there are those attorneys out there, and they may be the majority. But that is not every single one. And additionally, it's imperative that people be both lawful and ethical on their law school apps. If you aren't, that can come back to bite you when you're trying to be admitted to the bar.
We are all here to ask questions and receive help, in a friendly and supportive environment.
If you thought this questions was "beneath" you, you didn't have to reply.
The ways you replied to people in this post were very condescending and uncalled for, as others have already noted.
In any case, I sincerely hope I don't meet a dick like you in law school.