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Would a place like Fordham really not be worth attending?
stevencamendola
Alum Member
I've been having a lovely discussion in another thread and I happen to be on a very strict time table that can't be altered so naturally the subject arises, to postpone, is that possible? Unfortunately I pretty much have to start in the fall of '19. Having started in October I'm taking the January LSAT and hoping I score high enough that a mediocre GPA with an excellent addendum and some exquisite personal statements and LORs and the moral purity of my intent will be enough to compensate for the lateness in the cycle. So naturally, maybe, but maybe I don't get admitted anywhere in the top 14. Then what?
I'd love to attend pretty much anywhere, though. I'm thinking T14 or bust because all of the information that can be found in a cursory search says a JD from essentially anywhere else may as well be your corpse, as our rarer monsters are, painted on a pole and underwrit, "Here may you see the effect of irrecoverable debt."
My desire for the T14 in this sense is entirely practical; prestige has no effect on me. Of course some of these places like Yale are dream places because of the rare opportunities they represent and how Harvard and Yale have a couple of the largest libraries on Earth. Yet the Socratic method works as well at any ABA school, does it not?
My grandfather was an attorney. For undergraduate he went to Columbia. For law school he went to Fordham, where he got his JD in 1950 at the age of 29. He went on to have a terrific career and life, and died a well loved old man. His command of conditional logic was a thing of divine elegance. However, 7sage says they're 29-37 on US News in the last few years. Could things really have changed so dramatically in only 68 years that I may as well not go to Fordham if admitted? Where would I find the data?
I mean, I figure, I'm legacy, they have a great location, my grandfather always spoke very highly of them and their requirements are marginally less strict than the T14. I don't doubt my ability to top my class at this point in life. Yet would this be to acquire a hopeless debt?
Where is the exact line past the T14? Seems like UCLA is sometimes 15. Being one below the T14 couldn't be a death sentence, could it? Also their admissions policy seem friendly to me for a variety of reasons. I'd prefer to be anywhere in Pennsylvania to North Carolina but Duke is 11 and PennState is 74! I mean, University of Pennsylvania, hope for a miracle, but, woof.
Comments
The short answer: it depends on your goals. Try using ABA 509 reports and LST for specific employment outcomes.
I have the same question. I'm hoping to get into Fordham, but it seems like they offer very little in scholarships. In 2017 no one received a full ride. I've been doing research on LSN and it seems like they give about 90,000 to many applicants. But that doesn't even cover two years of tuition, and then I'd have to factor in the cost of living in NY. Is the amount of loans worth it for a Fordham degree? I suggest looking at their employment outcomes. They place well in NY and many students go on to work in big law making large salaries. If big law is your goal, then it seems like Fordham is good for that
I'm not so sure if Fordham is a great choice for big law. Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought you would have to be close to the top of your class.
@Emily2122 I wouldn't say it's a "great choice" for big law. But big law is possible. In the 2017 ABA employment outcomes 95 students received jobs in firms with 500+ employees. And 34 got jobs at firms with 251-500 employees. That's a decent outcome and a lot better in comparison to other tier 2 schools. If my math is correct, that's about 36% of the graduating class finding jobs in large firms.
https://www.fordham.edu/download/downloads/id/10375/class_of_2017_at_10_months.pdf
No, going to Fordham is not a death sentence. It really just depends on what your goals are. The T14 are considered more "portable" degrees - their level of prestige and recognition for strong academics means that your education is respected in many areas of the country. Graduating from a more regional school like Fordham is considered to be less portable - they likely have a good reputation in their local area and you can secure decent employment, though it may not be a prestigious job and may be harder to get in to a biglaw position.
If you are biglaw or bust (the only jobs that pay that fancy $180k salary straight out of school), then yes, you should try to go to the highest ranked school as possible, preferably T14. If you aren't interested in that route and are ok with more "local" type of positions (PD or DA office, legal aid, state attorney general, state level clerkship, small to mid-size law firms), then a regional school is just fine. I'd still check out the employment numbers to make sure there's nothing scary to be aware of, but well-respected regional schools will also get you a career as a lawyer. There's no slacking off, competition will be tougher and you need to be more concerned about a high class ranking. (Median at a T14 is more competitive/impressive to employers than median at a T30.) But if you want to be a lawyer, a regional school will get you there.
If you absolutely 100% want to stay in a specific area of the country, then often a regional school is your best bet. (I'm in the Pacific NW, and it apparently is very very important to go to a school here than elsewhere. Employers here like the locals. A T14 grad can strike completely out in the NW.) Just know that entry level lawyer jobs are bimodal - the biglaw folks make $160k-190k or so, and the rest mostly make around $60k, give or take. So in that sense, if you don't want biglaw, a lot of times a regional also makes more sense in order to keep your debt down. It's really only worth taking on $150k+ in debt if you have a way to pay it off later (e.g., a biglaw job).
You mention debt. Are you big law or death? I just ask because I work in St Louis and am surrounded by lawyers who went to St Louis University (currently ranked in the high 80's I believe) and they seem to make enough to buy a car, pay their mortgages, and send their children to private schools. N=1, I have two full ride offers in hand already this cycle, neither to a T14 school and I feel relatively confident that I will not have crushing debt upon my graduation from at best a school outside of the top 20. I'm just curious what your base line assumptions in this process are...
@"Leah M B" @LSAT_Wrecker @theLSATgrind2017 @Overcomer @Emily2122 Thank you all so much for your responses and information! Very encouraging!
Big Law is not a particular goal of mine. My fiance and I have very little in the way of material needs. My primary objective is to do the greatest possible moral good, like anyone I imagine, but I have and can live like a king on $30k per annum and less, so, I have a bit more flexibility in this way I think. I noticed some schools mention that if you do public sector work they may forgive some debt, though I don't have a very comprehensive list of those terms yet, and I don't actually know if public sector work involves the accomplishment of any greater moral good than ordinary work since, not having yet attended law school I'm not terribly familiar with the industry.
My central motivation is related to a moral distaste for the make up of nearly everything. I'm regularly horrified by the foreign policy outcomes of the US and I think the essential moral philosophy assumed by most people is directly responsible. I wish to engage with the system of law and extirpate the causes, legally and philosophically, of the regular international human rights violations my country commits, which seem structural and unrelated to party. I'm not sure if I might best accomplish this by working for some kind of advocacy organization or if I should just go way deep into legal scholarship, do the LLM, Doctorate of Juridical Science thing, et cetera. I'm sure I'll submit to law journals in any case once the methods of legal research are made apparent to me.
Of course I'd love to have at least a $60k-$70k salary like anyone and not worry much about money, but it's not an absolute necessity. My father has always made quite a lot of money but my fiance by contrast grew up in extreme poverty, and is much more capable than me in several ways.
So I guess I didn't even realize some firms paid in excess of $100k right out of school. I don't need that day 1 or ever really. I mean, sounds nice, but my motivations are ideological, and I have and will trudge through literal fields of effluent for their sake.
I mean, William and Mary! 37! Do I have more causes for confidence in US News than I do in William of Orange and Thomas Jefferson? I mean, to hell with them too, but come on! Ha.
@"Leah M B" In addition to anything that might be relevant in my last comment, would you mind telling me a bit more about your experience in the Pacific Northwest? I once lived in Eureka, California and the climate and culture there were exquisite. I only wished it was colder. If there's a fine school that will allow me to live and work in Oregon or Washington I'd be fascinated. Being a New Jersian I know nothing about the universities there.
Since you mention libraries, have you looked at Cooley? Vastly superior to Harvard.
This.wins.the.internet. /thread
Ha, sorry I don't know the reference.
I think you have a lot to learn about law school, employment outcomes, and how to find reliable information about this field. A cursory search that suggests a degree from a respectable regional school isn’t worth pursuing is a total joke. It really doesn’t seem like you know what you’re getting into.
There are people here in this community that will attend regional schools and have amazing career successes, and there are others who would be offended by your characterization of a degree from schools outside of the arbitrary T14.
Best of luck to you in this process. I don’t mean to be combative, but hopefully you are able to make a better informed decision on law school (and the legal profession) because of the pushback here on the forums.
Oh I've had no pushback, it's been a perfectly friendly time! I mean, I guess you're referring to your own use of the phrase "total joke." That isn't accurate, but it also harms me none. Thank you, every assurance that the T14 isn't such a necessary benchmark is very encouraging.
Law schools can change a lot in 50 years! Fordham might not be what it was like when your Grandfather went.
Man you need to read Orwell's politics and the english language.
That being said, if your goal is to do public sector work then it's not absolutely necessary for you to go to a Top 14. It still helps though, especially when considering the prestige of certain public sector positions. If you want to be a US Attorney in New York, for example.
Fordham is a good school, though I'd be wary of assuming that you'll be top of your class there. You're competing with everyone who thinks that they, too, will be top of the class, not to mention the kids who rejected offers from Columbia/NYU after receiving hefty scholarships for academic performance at Fordham.
Success doesn't have any necessary conditions you'd violate by going to a non-top 14 school. It's all about what you make of it. But Top 14 can help you on the way to greatness, there's no doubt about that.
T14 is symbolic guys. It's an arbitrary cut-off point because the difference between the 14th school and the 15th school is significant (but not huge). It also witnessed the lowest volatility as the schools in the T14 have been roughly the same for decades. Below the T14, through the T20, you have national schools but they don't have the same prestige, these would be UT-A, UCLA, Vandy or WUSTL. All of these have well over 30% of their graduates getting BigLaw positions, and a significant number end up in good clerkships. But, the reason they are inferior to T14 is because even at cornell, usually dancing around 13 or 14, 75% (or more) get BigLaw in NYC. SO the step down isn't devastating, but it is significant.
The further down you go, 25-40ish you start to see the strongest schools for a given region. Schools like Minnesota, ASU, or NDLS are strong for their specific markets, but don't have the national reach of the top 20 school. They will see good placement in their region, but don't expect the degree to travel.
If you have dreams of becoming a federal clerk in DC or work in a top Vault firm in New York or Los Angeles, you need T14 to have a reasonable shot. That doesn't mean that you can't get there without T14, but the lower down the list you go, the lower your chances for getting those jobs become.
This article by 7Sage sums up your T14 question pretty well:
https://7sage.com/does-attending-a-t14-law-school-matter
this is awesome !
I have, nothing in my writing is contrary to his advice. Although I don't fully agree with him anyway. Passive voice is usually preferable to the active voice.
Thank you, though, your reference to conditional logic is very useful.
Thank you! Where does one find articles on the site like this?
Thank you @Ohnoeshalpme as well!