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7Sage ↔ 36 points ⬆️
Heart Shaped Box
Alum Member ⭐
No. Didn't break a 170.
Just wanna leave a short message and shout out for J.Y., 7 sage crew and all 7sagers who have helped me grow in this journey.
Diagnostic 133, after over 3 years of studying finally scored a 169.
It's been nothing but blood and tears but the result is worth it.
Now seriously debating on retake..really just wanna be done with it after all those years of grinding this thing but you know the dilemma...
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Comments
Totally depends on how you're feeling about dedicating the time and energy. I could definitely retake in November. Might even improve a bit, but I'm checked out mentally so it's just not worth it for me.
congrats! really great achievement! Would you be retaking because of a school you want to get into or would you be retaking because you want to break that 170 mark?
The mental fortitude to have gotten you to this post is heroic.
@"Pride Only Hurts"
I hear ya and believe me, I’m really leaning towards that route as well. I’m just kinda really mentally drained at this point.
That progress is insane!! Way to kill it.
@BinghamtonDave
Thank you Dave I really appreciate it! To be honest, a bit of both. I feel like one or two extra points could open a few more crucial doors for me (w a GPA of 3.89) plus given the amount of time I’ve been at this thing along w lots of LR just started really clicking for the past a few weeks (I now see lots of 5 star Qs in a completely new light), so I’m not sure if I wanna just live with this “what if” for the rest of my life you know what I mean? I keep asking myself, after all these years of grinding, am I really just gonna “settle” for this, knowing that it actually isn’t ‘entirely’ impossible to break the mark.
But then again, it’s also this very reason that I kinda just wanna be done with it given how long it’s been. A 169 is more than an honorable score for someone like me given my starting point.
If I may, could you (and all 7sagers) be brutally honest w me on this question:
Assuming the worst that I didn’t score as high on the second take, would it honestly hurt me 'more' than just take it once and apply w a 169 considering at end of the day, still the highest score is what counts? I really don’t wanna chance it if in the eyes of the admin ppl, for whatever reason a 169 ‘one time’ just looks better than, say, a 169 then a 167 but still using 169 to apply.
Thank you so much in advance, as you can see I really don’t know much about the application process (especially for high risk decisions like this). I never really pay attention to application posts before cuz I know I suck at this test so my first priority has always been focus on the test first before anything else..
@LSATcantwin thank you so much sir hope all is well!
Welcome to club 169! Proud of you bro! I have always enjoyed your explanations over the years. Congrats on a job well done! In terms of the retake, schools are ranked by US News based partially on their LSAT medians (https://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/articles/law-schools-methodology). These rankings mean a lot more than they should and schools have every incentive to keep their medians as high as they can because of this. Schools want and only really care about your highest score, because that is what they report. Here are some articles explaining this more: https://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/how-many-test-takes-is-too-many-for-law-school/
https://blog.powerscore.com/lsat/do-law-schools-average-lsat-scores-or-use-the-high-score/
*
Sorry this isn't advice - but thank you for the incredibly helpful, detailed comments you've posted throughout. Helpful to us all! Congrats on the score & good luck either way!
@"Lucas Carter"
Hey thanks for all the info man, they're very helpful and congrats on your improvements as well! You've been very heldpful on the CC comment sections.
I read through some of the articles and you're right, it sounds like they really just care about your highest score since that's what they are gonna use to report. However, it did say one highest score is better than, say, 2 or 3? And we might wanna explain the second/third take in an addendum? (Btw, I will not take it third time no matter what I scored on second take, if I decided to retake at all) as you know I'm already leaning towards just be done with it, it's good enough for my situation, and if I have to explain a second take in an addendum, I'm not so sure if that's better way than just a 169 one time.. what do you think? And how's the application process for ya so far?
@kaizen099
Yes it was the digital. Overall I like the new format better than pencil and paper. I just really appreciate the neatness of not having to deal w stacks of stacks of stacks of PT papers and I really like how fast it is to skip and come back to questions and line space etc. Pretty much everything else is better on digital imo except for notation. And yes I understand and agree on the inconvenience of notating on LR and RC (they won't even let us use pencil for LG, it's a freaking pen and I was used to erasing things on LG) that said, things like those should not matter enough to hinder your performance but your actual skills. Same reason I never cared too much about the watches debate back then cuz things as such should not be what we focus on for an advantage; only our skills are. Plus you can still anotate on LR and RC and arguably more visual if anything w the highligher. You just need to adapt to a specific way of annotating which is an important skill (adaptation/flexibility) in many aspects in life.
You'll do just fine, trust me. It may take a little while to get used to it but I think you'll like it more once you are.
@umich101
My pleasure and thank you so much for the kind words, I truly appreciate it and am glad we get to grow in this journey together.
First and foremost, I just want to say thank you so much for all that you have and continue to do for this community! The time that you took/continue to take to answer questions is very much appreciated! Also congratulations on the improvement- it is truly a testament to your hard-work and resilience! In terms of your debate, this is my advice to you and one that I constantly ask myself whenever I am debating a course of action-> whatever you decide to do, ask yourself if you are going to regret that decision later on. For example, if there is some type of opportunity and you're not sure whether to apply for it, ask yourself, "if I don't, will I have regrets later?" If the answer is yes, that suggests you may want to apply (for example). It the answer is no, then maybe your time might be better spent somewhere else. Again, this is just my opinion but it has greatly helped me when making major decisions! Good luck!!
@"Heart Shaped Box" Thank you for the shout out, and congratulations on your achievement!
Your comments on the forums are so good. Proud of you for this amazing improvement.
.
Great job! I'm entering my 4th year of on and off studying. Hopefully will see the same result.
Hey man I figure I'd share the appreciation since I've looked at your comments for soo many explanation videos and they have helped me greatly! Congrats on getting a 169, that's an amazing score.
In regards to your question I have no idea on if you should write again or just stick with the 169. With that being said though, based on your stats you should be able to get into most schools right? (I'm Canadian and maybe I'm shooting low but I feel like most schools would take in someone with your stats).
Anyways man, thanks again for all the explanations, and congrats on your score! Hopefully I can land something close to that lmfao.
Thanks man! Yeah, it does seem like the consensus is that 170 with 1 take may be preferable to 170 with 4 takes. However, the final number is really the most important part. Admissions officers are people too and understand that we are trying to get the highest score we can. From what i have gathered scouring Reddit, schools understand 2 or 3 takes without much explanation; people have a belief that they can do better and they act on it.
So you should for sure go for another take, if you truly think you can do better. There is no downside and lots of upside when it comes to scholarship funds.
Beyond maybe 4 takes, it seems like you need to contextualize it for school; let them know why you are taking it so many times, how you are taking measures to improve, what you have learned etc.
This has been fun for me with 7 takes, lol! I plan on sending an ED application to Berkeley, will keep you posted for sure!
Congratulations on your score!! I, like many, have benefitted greatly from your explanations for many tough questions. That being said I would encourage you to retake if your ultimate goal was to get a 170 and you are right there with a 169! Take some time off and come back determined to jump even higher. Often times students who take time off from the LSAT completely and then come back find that their score jumps a couple of points upon coming back to the material. Additionally, taking the LSAT 2 or 3 times doesn't warrant an addendum as it has become more or less the norm now.
That is my take on it. I think you owe it to yourself to give it one more chance. But either way, congratulations again on a fantastic score and such an incredible increase from start to finish. That is extremely impressive and good luck to you whatever you decide.
Wow, congrats on the wicked score! I didn't know you were still at it until now, I was thinking this dude Heart Shaped Box must be an LSAT wizard due to your elaborate explanations which I, among many others, have greatly appreciated! Kudos to your hard work and perseverance brother!
Congratz! I have been with you on this journey for quite a while now
Hopefully it will be my time soon as well
Hey! Congrats! I took the old school paper and pencil test back in July and I wonder if you mind sharing some insights on how your digital test went? I am using an ipad to take digital tests though I know that they give us a Microsoft surface go. How different is that from an ipad? Also were you able to prop the thing up? if so, how high were you able to put it up? Just trying to get as close to an actual test-day experience as possible for my practice tests... anyways, Congrats again!!
Just want to say congrats and that's amazing!
@Hopeful9812 @lsatplaylist @noonawoon @GodsPlan @rnwanguma @salonpapas
Thank you guys so much. I truly appreciate the kind words and am always honored to be able to help other 7sagers who are in need. I struggled so so much when I started so I fully understand and feel the frustration. Plus it's a mutual beneficial process so I strongly encourage all 7sagers do the same. It will do wonders to your study. You have no idea how many times I've come this close to giving up and am so glad didn't and continued to challenge and push myself further. Please keep at it the hard work will pay off!
@"Juliet --Student Service--"
Thank you!
@"Cant Get Right"
I gotta learn how to post cool stuff like you do lol but thank you Josh, please know I've always appreciated your insight and encouragement.
@"Lucas Carter"
Solid advice man, much appreciated. I'm kinda late in the process (just started brainstorming for PS topics like right now and I still haven't even taken the writing sample! lol) so I don't think I would make the ED deadline but please do keep me posted and I'll do the same!
@Lawful18
Thank you so much for the encouragement please know it really means a lot. I gotta think really hard on retake since I've been ignoring the application process (really shouda started in the summer on PS, essays etc) so if I wanna start school next fall, time is kinda running out since I 'just' started to put things together now. It's a tough decision but I gotta make it soon.
Once again thank you for the advice and best of luck on the rest of the journey! You'll do well I'm sure!
@VanishingTaxAct @"GSU Hopeful"
Thank you! We all have been at this thing for a quite a while now and I have no doubt in my mind that we all will have a fruitful outcome given the amount of hard work and determination we have put in. I know this may sound cliche but just as the saying goes the darkest hour is before the dawn so please keep grinding, the result will be worth it. Best of luck to you guys from the bottom of my heart and please keep us updated. We are almost there!
@Sharon_sarangyang
I practiced on an Ipad as well (pro 12.9) and had no issues on the test day with the Surface Go. The screen is bit smaller than mine and the gesture is a bit different from apple pencil (you use the soft tip of the pen they give you for gesture control) but you get used to it pretty quickly. At least it was the case for me. The screen and texts aren't small to the point it was hard to read; it was just 'smaller' in comparison given mine is a huge tablet. And you can freely prop the device up adjust the viewing angle with the Surface Go back kickstand. It's actually better more flexible than my ipad pro keyboard case. You will do just fine device wise (except I had to use a pen for LG and I didn't like it) so no worries.
Thanks for the info on Surface Go!! So we are not allowed to bring in any pencil/pen of our own, and there is no use of pencil during any section? Only pens? Is it like soft-tip ballpoint pen? Sorry if I am asking too much details, just trying to simulate the actual test day experience as much as possible during my PTs..
That is an amazing achievement. Congratulations!!! You have been so valuable to me in my study process. You have a very strong GPA and with your score you have an excellent shot at some of the best schools. I understand about the psychological effect of having a "7" in your score and we all know that schools are heavily score oriented but if I were you I would probably weigh that decision based on what your average practice test score is now and whether or not you feel burned out. Based on my conversations with schools I don't think that, for instance, a one point difference between 169 and 170 would make that much difference especially since you will be applying pretty early in the process. However, if your practice tests average is usually much higher and you can go into the next test feeling relaxed knowing that you already have one awesome score under your belt than it may be worth it depending on your goals. This test is so incredibly stressful so it would really have to be worth it for me to go at it again.
That's my two cents anyway
Whatever you do, I think you will end up where you are supposed to be. So, happy for you
With those numbers you can get into UVA, Northwestern, Georgetown et al. Don’t delay going to law school for another year because you want to go to Stanford. There’s other schools than HYS. People who go to schools ranked 7-20 tend to also have great careers! In my opinion, eventually we have to let go of this test, and go to law school. That’s why we took this test in the first place (I got a 169 as well. Would’ve loved a 172, but it wasn’t in the cards).
I have really enjoyed seeing your comments on all the videos going through. Some of your explanations really helped me!
I have also been studying off and on for about 2 years now and it has been a pleasure sort of doing this journey with you.
This might have been mentioned, but the reasons to retake the LSAT have been mentioned as follows
If any of these reasons sound like you, it is worth it to take it again (considering your blood sweat and tears). The biggest disadvantage to taking it again wouldn't be admissions looking down on you, but the money and opportunity cost going into it. Also consider a lot of testing days have been filled so you might not get in as soon as you want.
Congratulations!!! Whatever your decision is regarding the retake, it is already an amazing achievement. Thank you so much for all your helpful comments and contributions on 7sage.
Incredible improvement - congratulations!! I've just decided to bite the bullet and retake after an unsuccessful application cycle. I have a 169/3.4. The difference between a 169 and a 170, I figure, is worth the pain.
@Sharon_sarangyang No, you can't bring in pen and pencils of your own and pencils are not allowed on LG. They only give us one pen that's also a stylus. The writing tip part is the same as a normal pen but the cap part is a soft stylus tip for gesture control such as anotating, select ACs, etc. So you write on scratch paper like you normally do with a normal pen and you flip it upside down for gesture control on the tablet. They let you keep the pen afterwards so I could take a picture if that's not against the rule, also someone will have to show me how to post pics..lol but you'll be fine it's pretty intuitive.
Thank you so much @Vibrio please know your encouragement means a lot, I'm rooting for you and firmly believe you will have a fruitful result given how hard you've been working. Thank you for being on this journey with me
@OneFortyDotSix hey man I feel ya and totally understand where you're coming from. If your pt average is up there I say go for it, especially given the fact you weren't retaking just for the sake of retaking. You actually went through an application cycle and decided retaking in fact might be a better option for your situation. What are your target schools if you don't mind asking? Do you think an outstanding PS resume/optional essays might be able to do the trick? I just got started with the process any advice on application would be greatly appreciated.
You are right @Nina-LSAT the psychological effects of a 7 as the middle number definitely got in the way even though 169 is still in the 97th percentile.
I was pting consistently in the high 160s and low 170s towards the end of the prep so it isn't entirely impossible to break into 170 if retake (I actually did on this test but screwed it up myself, I'll tell u guys the story in a sec). But as @Ms Nikki and @Louislepauvre correctly point out, at this point is more about the money, opportunity cost and we gotta learn to let go of the test at some point instead of running of the risk of delaying another year just for an ego boost. I've always said to myself during the prep that coming from a 133, this isn't about a final score for me but to give it my all. Ive said this to Josh (can'tgetright) and a few others that as much as seems to the contrary, I actually don't 'have to' score in the 170s as the end result, as long as I can honestly face myself knowing that I have truly given it my all without cutting any corners, I'm happy with whatever score I get. And a 169 is indeed in my average range. I may have "under performed" for a 170 plus in terms of number in isolation, I didn't in an aggregate. So I am content with the outcome as I very well should be.
Okay guys here is the story and it's also a great lesson of 'what not to do' for all 7sagers out there as it literally cost me a 170.
Please, please do NOT second guess yourself stick with your intuition on the first choice when it comes to narrowing it down deciding between 2 ACs. It happened to me on LG, there was a Q that I was down to between A and B, felt good about B but not positive so I selected it and flagged the Q moved on. After finishing the section I still had about 40 secs left so I went back to that Q conforming my AC. I read through A and B again and somehow I changed my AC to A. Still unsure, took another look and made the final decision sticking w my initial choice B. So I erased A and just when I was about to click on B again the time is up.....swear to God I was about to smash that fcking tablet cuz I left Q16 a fcking BLANK and I had it right in the first place had I not dwelled on it changing it back and forth. It pisses me off to this day every time I see that freaking 'blank' on Q16 on my score report..I kept telling myself after the test that it's okay, it's just one point, unless you're scoring a 169 with only one raw point difference, it won't matter that much. And...I scored a 169 (-14) with that ONE raw score difference...but what makes me especially angry and regretful is the fact I actually had it..had I not second guess myself f*ck w it on the last 40 secs, it would've been a 170. But this is life I suppose, it's full of imperfections.
It's a cruel lesson for me but I hope my experience would serve others on the future tests in terms of strategies. If you have it down between 2 ACs and feel 51% or more confident with one of them, stick with it and move on (If you're 50/50 on them, pick one and move on). Please do not look back second guess yourself. It could be a reget for the rest of your life.
@"Heart Shaped Box" -- Did you only study for 3 years or did you work as well? I've been studying on and off for about 3 years and my diagnostic was about the same but now my prep test are up to a 160. My barrier is in the reading comp. How did you break through that?
Great job!
I am also a fan of your explanations in the videos. Best of luck to your law career.
Your comments under each question are very helpful. Good luck with your application and thank you very much!
tbh, I've seen your comments in the discussion and I believe you could definitely do better than a 169
@tams2018 @inanan97 @dphizzle thank you guys so much and my pleasure. I'm glad my comments and explanations could help others. Best of luck to you guys as well.
@tennisgurl yes I did work while prepping. And congrats on the score jump! I'm sure it took lots of hard work.
For me there was never an "a-ha" moment on RC or any sections in general. Eveything was gradual, very gradual incremental improvements (I started off not being able to finish the second passage). I did read the Economist, the Scientific American, The New Yorker etc at the beginning just as the general consensus suggests and I'm sure it helped in terms of subject matter or just the exposure for dense reading, but I'll have to say at the end of the day, practicing real RC passages is the best way to improve on RC. I have done (almost foolproofed) every single RC section there is, many of which more than once. The goal isn't completion but understanding the structure, the way they construct Qs and the way they design/word difficult trap ACs and hide the correct ones. There are patterns in RC I'm you've heard this and it takes time and practice to discover those patterns and get used to the way to read passages and answering Qs. There are many instances where I had only a very fuzzy understanding of the passage and yet get all the Qs right (or missed 1 or 2 maximum). For hard curve breaker RC Qs (or any curve breaker in general), it's unlikely we will be able to spot and hunt the correct answer right off of the bat even if we may have an adequate understanding of the passage, so work from wrong to right (aka POE). You may not see the correct one right away but you surely should be able to identify the wrong ones, at least the vast majority of the times. Of course, this is speaking of under timed strategy but make sure you completely understand everything in review. Writing out explanations is a great way to do it. It solidifies your understanding and helps organize the passage structure as well. It takes a lot of time but you'll see improvement for sure.
@"Heart Shaped Box" Way to go!!! Exciting news and huge accomplishment!!! I hope to give you another point of view from someone who has been on the “accomplishment hamster wheel” for most of my life but has realized that there comes a point where you really have nothing left to prove to yourself (or anyone else for that matter). Two questions for you to ponder: “At this moment in your life will one point materially make a difference to your future?” AND “Would your 86 year-old self, sans the ego need for approval, look back with regret?” Only you can answer these questions, so BE HONEST with yourself.
For me, the need to score 170 would have been a driving force 10 years ago. I would have pushed myself to the limits until I got it. Now I conduct the cost-benefit analysis and acknowledge that sometimes the physical and mental collateral damage isn’t worth it. It won’t materially change my future, and my 86 year old self doesn’t need the external validation anymore and wont regret not scoring higher.
We are most certainly in different places in our lives, so my point of view may not be helpful in your stage of life. I’m certain you can crack this given more time. But make sure the “why” is of real import to you.
Congratulations on your incredible progress! I haven't read through all the comments, so maybe someone already said this, but this is my brutally honest opinion: with your high GPA, if you want to shoot for a top 5, for example, I'd keep going, especially since you just recently started looking at harder questions in a different light. I know you're tired and just want to be done with it, but I'm a huge believer in never stopping short of your goals (barring extreme circumstances), as big and difficult and seemingly impossible as your goals may be. Now again, I don't know what your specific goals are and if you even have the desire to go to a top top law school, but if you do, then nothing should hold you back from breaking a 170 and getting that top score. You've already made it so far - 36 points is truly incredible. The other part of this is that you shouldn't be showing up to take the LSAT if you aren't consistently PT-ing in the range you want to be in. So let's say your goal this time around is to get a 173. That's only a 4 point jump from where you are right now (169). Yes, it'll be hard, but certainly not anywhere near as hard as making that initial 36 point jump. So if your goal is a 173, for example, then you shouldn't be showing up for the real LSAT unless you're already PT-ing between a 170 and a 175 consistently. Taking the November LSAT without having PT-ed higher than a 169 consistently is not a good idea and will likely make the fear that you described (your score going down or staying at the same) a reality. A 169 looks so much better than a 169 and a 167. So my recommendation is to genuinely, honestly reflect on what you truly want, what your goals are, and if you have the bandwidth to keep studying (even if that means taking a short break). That should be your first step. You make up your mind about what you want to do, and then you take it from there. Again, congratulations on your amazing progress and even without knowing you, I can tell that your perseverance and work ethic will get you very far, no matter what you decide to do. Hope this helps!
Thank you guys so much for the heart felt encouragement and genuine advice. I really appreciate it. That's very solid advice on retake from @ilovethelsat , and a reality check from @sarterlsu . I did pt in the range towards the end of the prep but then I run out of fresh material so I'll have to use retakes should I decide to do it again. (Second guessing myself literally cost me a 170 on the September test, I wrote the story in the previous response, maybe I should add it to the O.P. so that more ppl would see it). I do very much need a break at this point after all those years of grinding so I'm leaning towards giving this application cycle a try and still continue to study on the side and make the retake decision based on acceptance outcome. Would you say that's an okay strategy? I'm just worried about having to write another PS that's different than the one I'm sending in this cycle since obviously we pick the best life story the first time around. But I also feel weird sending the same PS twice even with a higher score..idk..I gotta do some research on this.
Thank you guys again for the encouragement, please keep us updated on the process. I'm confident you will do well!
@"Heart Shaped Box" Sounds like a great strategy! Whatever you end up doing, definitely give yourself a nice break, because you deserve it! I'd say basing your decision on acceptance outcome is really solid and you don't even have to worry about writing another PS at this point. See how things turn out for you and if you decide to retake in the future and send in new applications, then you can worry about your new PS. I don't know if sending the same exact PS twice is a good idea, but I'm assuming that the admissions committees will totally understand if your second PS were based on the same core life story...because you can't really change that. But I'm by no means an expert on this, so definitely do research and consult with professionals. Keep up the great work - you have so much to be proud of.
I'm not sure if you will check this again, but did you find yourself re-doing many exams you've done before?
@tennisgurl I did some retakes not a whole lot since I just ran out of fresh PTs right before the September test.
But I did find retakes could be very beneficial for improvement if doing it right. I see lots of curve breaker Qs (ones haven't seen at least over a year) in a completely new light in retakes. The patterns just jump out, things I just couldn't see first time around.
I mixed retakes and the several fresh PTs I had left and finally broke into the low 170's towards the end of the prep and I kinda attribute the score jump to retakes now looking back.
Thats awesome! Can we give him/her an AMA!?