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Related Discussions
A discussion to begin a debate: My position on 0L Prep
BinghamtonDave
Alum Member ⭐ 🍌🍌
I recently was able to take part in a discussion with a very well respected and recognizable civ-pro professor. The question I asked the professor was: “is there anything you recommend that an incoming student learn or be aware of before they come into your classroom?” The professor answered with a very relaxed response that essentially stated: you could skim a commercial outline over the summer but you don’t have to, mostly relax and maybe read a novel [Paraphrase].
I found the answer shocking but it is also indicative of a response one gets quite often when asking this question. Some of the forms this answer takes are: “don’t bother learning anything.” “Don’t bother learning any substantive law, you don’t know what your professor is going to focus on.” Before I continue I should with full disclosure state that:
-I have yet to attend law school (This August I will be: God willing!)
-I did not study law in school formally and have never worked a legal job, my interest in law mainly comes from life experiences and my own independent watching of the news in my home country of the USA.
So ultimately because I come to this issue from a particularly inexperienced perspective, I might be completely wrong about my analysis so wanted to start this discussion as an open and transparent way of evaluating the arguments for and against doing 0L prep and to what extent.
My position:
Is a student in a better position if they go into an American law school not knowing anything at all about the law? Is that student going to be better prepared for a Con law class for instance if they have never heard of the 5th Amendment or the 14th amendment beyond a law and order rerun? Is that student going to be better prepared for a property class if they have never heard of the legal concept of trespass? Is a student better off as a “blank slate” to both learn the law, understand how that law might be applied to cases and then contextualize that information to such a degree that they can both effectively issue spot and know what is important for their professor come exam season?
I think the resounding answer to each of these questions is no, if we define “better off” as engaging with the material in a more meaningful way and doing better on exams, a student that knows something: what the basic elements of a contract are for instance, will be better prepared for the rigors of 1L than a student that knows nothing. As I have stated previously, I don’t know of any other domain of knowledge acquisition where an individual would be better off coming into something as a complete blank slate, think of how these pieces of advice (that are routinely uttered online in response to the 1L prep question) would sound:
1.The summer before med school, it doesn't help to know what the major functions of the liver are
2.The weeks before auto mechanic school, it is a waste of time to know what the major components of a car's fuel injection system are.
These pieces of advice hinge on a key assumption: that everything you could possibly need to know for the grades that largely (but not exclusive) determine your future employment will be dispensed in the classroom time. Could this be true? Airing on the side of caution, I would say no, but of course, my experience here is limited. Even if this is true, even if the exams are exclusively determined by what is stated in class, doesn't it help to come into the class with some background knowledge of the topic to be able to distill that information effectively? So for me personally, I just don’t believe the professor, respectfully. Civ-Pro is one of the most convoluted subjects I have ever looked into, with all due respect, I would rather struggle now when I have 2 hours per day to spare with the basics, then to struggle later, when 1L grades are on the line and my anxiety is running high and the cases we are reading are based on the foundations I’’m struggling at the very same time to learn. For me personally the question is not should one spend any time studying, but rather: how much time should be spent?
With that position outlined I should take the time to ask other 7Sagers:
-Did you 1L prep?
-If you did, did you feel better able to engage with the material?
-If you didn’t, do you wish you did?
-If you didn’t, did you feel “behind”?
-What do you wish you did differently?
*Fallacy alter: we might not be able to tell what the causal mechanism for being “prepared” here is. 1L prep or not.
So for me personally the question becomes: how much should I study? I have never heard the blank slate idea defended properly. I’m open to hear this case.
So for me, my plan is to read some outlines, continue taking the 7Sage courses, explore LarryLawLaw’s practice exam, read “getting to maybe” as well as some other 1L resources for bout 2 hours per day, schedule permitting. My plan is to be ready with the basics of each subject so I can build upon that knowledge and take practice exams. I don’t plan on writing a masters thesis on the origins of the 5th Amendment in British Common Law, lol, but giving myself some tools to be ready for the material. Gunner much? maybe… But as of this writing I simply cannot buy the blank slate approach.
*Full disclosure, no one paid me for this as an endorsement for anything, I receive no monetary kickback from anything I mentioned, this post is rooted in genuine curiosity and an attempt to stimulate engaging conversation with the users on this forum.
Questions for my fellow 0Ls:
-Are you prepping for 1L and if so, why and how?
-If not, why?
-Want to form an online study group, maybe reach out to some professors as guest speakers and review material together?
I should note here that I will commit myself to following up come 1L the best I can on these boards, particularly trying to answer the question: how much did 1L prep help me?
- As an incoming 1L, are you prepping?55 votes
- No25.45%
- Yes43.64%
- Thinking about it30.91%
Comments
I've heard a few 1L students recommend learning how to brief cases and get familiar with the “IRAC” (Issue; Rule; Application; Conclusion) Method. Also, having a solid understanding of grammar may sound intuitive, but when getting into complex reading, it truly helps (much like how grammar assists with the LSAT). Otherwise, I personally enjoy listening to podcasts like Thinking LSAT where they'll have 1L, 2L, 3L students and others in the field come on from time-to-time to give advice and overall the hosts provide insight into the good and bad of law school. In other words, I feel having a solid, basic comprehension of what is desired of you can assist, but I'm also the type who likes to be somewhat prepared.
0L as well here,
I think a major concern that you failed to address is the risk of learning something wrong. Ya it may help to know what the 5th amendment is but to think you have more than a superficial understanding of it could actually harm you in your 1L year when being told something that contradicts any knowledge you came to on your own.
Also, if a lot of professors and other students are saying to just relax and not worry about it then that's what I'm going to do because it's less work (lol) and I'll be a nervous wreck about 1L year no matter how hard I prepare so I might as well keep myself from burning out early.
Obviously I’m not in law school yet, but, I have found it extremely extremely helpful to have knowledge of law concepts for RC passages. Also, I’m a philosophy major and my profs recommend something similar. Yet, if I didn’t study on my own and learn the language of philosophical discourse, I’d be lost.
I feel as though no matter how much you prep before law school, you’re still going to be clueless, regardless LOL
And here’s why I believe so…
I did prelaw during undergrad and although it’s not as rigorous as law school, the way my law professors taught and how the classes were set up is similar to what I’ve heard law students describe law school.
Here’s an example of why I don’t think it’s necessary to prep before law school:
In one of my law classes, I had volunteered to brief this one case. I felt so prepared that day because I had read the assigned reading, knew about all the laws being talked about that day, and on top of that, a couple quarters prior to this class, I had briefed, wrote a report, and did a presentation on this exact same case and got great feedback from my other law professor, so I felt as though I knew everything there was to know about this specific case.
After I finished briefing, my professor asks me, “Good, so what do you think about the ruling of this case? Do you agree? Why or why not?” That was a fair question, so I answered (thinking that’s the only thing he’s going to ask me) but then he proceeds to ask me…
- “What if defendant was XYZ or did XYZ…how would that change this case?”
- “What if plaintiff was XYZ or did XYZ…how would this change this case?”
- “What if both parties were XYZ…how would that change this case?”
- “What if a third party was involved, did XYZ and then plaintiff did XYZ and then defendant did XYZ, they’re all in different countries, and there was no contract in place…what would happen? Who would have jurisdiction over this?”
…And I sat there like, “????!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!” LOL
In this scenario, it didn’t matter how much prep work or how much reading I did before this class because in order for me to answer these questions, it required me to have a completely different understanding of the law that I had studied the night before. It’s questions like these that you cannot prepare for because the answers to these questions aren’t in the textbook – they’re conceptual and hypothetical situations that you’re not even going to think of when you sit down and study these laws. And its questions like these that I believe help train you to think like a lawyer. It’s not enough to just know the law; you also need to be trained to think a certain way about these laws.
Do I believe that what I learned during undergrad helped prep me for law school? Sure, but not much. Because I know that everything that I learned during undergrad scratches just the surface of what I’m going to learn in law school.
I don’t believe that two months of studying is going to prep you enough in order to be “better off” or have an advantage compared to those who did not prep. If you want to study these laws for the fun of it, I don’t see the harm in doing that. However, if you’re doing it just to be prepared, I don’t think it’s going to do much good.
Relax, enjoy your summer, and congrats on getting into law school!
Is it really a blank slate? Law schools are not taking kids out of high school who cannot write essays. They are taking high performing students who spent the last four years of their life reading, writing, and making arguments (or doing something some pretty advanced STEM stuff). And sure doctors and auto mechanics are better prepared going into their advanced learning phase if they know more about human bodies or automobiles respectively, but their disciplines are more knowledge based. Law, by contrast, is interpretive, just as most fields in the humanities are interpretive. These conditions--reading, writing, arguing, interpreting-- are sufficient for law schools to impose difficult course content on new law students who know little to nothing about the complexities of the legal system.
I'm still in my LSAT phase (applying for fall 2021), but someone shared this resource with me that might prove useful! Harvard has an online zeroL course that explains some simple law concepts so they don't seem so foreign when you first arrive at law school.
https://today.law.harvard.edu/harvard-makes-online-course-for-incoming-students-available-to-all-law-schools-for-free-this-summer/?fbclid=IwAR1KeERd1D57VRNYUEFKoSBSwGgfj_rsKxJHfTWmyhY4tQSPuLYxluttZxY
I’m also a 0L starting in August, and so I’ve been in contact with faculty from my law school and other law students and every one says the same thing: just relax the summer before and maybe read a few books, do a little research etc.. but no need to take a prep course or anything like that. The reason they say this is 1. You don’t want to be burnt out before you even start law school because once you start, you’re not going to have a lot of down time, so you want to relax and do everything you can for your mental state before you start. 2. Professors are going to teach you what you need to know, and you don’t want to learn something contradictory and be confused.
I have a pre law major (it’s called law & Society but basically pre law) and I work as a paralegal, so maybe that’s why I feel more comfortable going in without prepping too much, but reality is we will all be confused at some point lol and either way, you still learn how to read and write in undergrad which is just as important for law school.
I’m reading some books currently such as just mercy, the new Jim Crow, Gideons trumpet, and a civil action that were recommended to me by faculty. Also planning to read getting to maybe and law school confidential which just give you different strategies or succeeding in law school. I think we will all be okay!
If it's free and helpful, I'd consider it, but if it's expensive, then it's unlikely I'd do it because of other financial priorities and being scared about the costs of law school.
I'm a rising 2L. I don't think you need to prep much. I read a couple of books which helped (Getting to Maybe and Law School Confidential) but they were more about the process of school and exams. I did pick up how to do a book brief instead of a full on case brief from Law School Confidential.
Law School will teach you how to think differently and how to make a legal argument. You will learn about the different topics from your professor's point of view and from the textbook. They will open you up into new ways of thinking about the issues. There isn't much you can do to prep for a professor's style of teaching.
I think everyone says to take it easy because the work load the first few weeks of Law School is immense. Learning how to read cases and be ready for class cold calls will take endless amounts of time at first. Once you get a couple of months into the semester you will be much better at it. At that point you'll start outlining in the extra reading time you're saving, and once you get that under control you'll be onto your writing assignment. By the end of the semester and year you'll realize how easy the first few weeks actually were!
My school offered a Law Prep week in the summer where they taught a class to get you ready for the preparation. I wasn't able to attend but I don't think I missed anything. I think you need to be in the classes to know how to make a proper legal argument and make sense of what you read. Reading general information about the classes will prepare you with knowledge of the topic (which could shave off a little time when you're reading for class,) but I don't think it's necessary. The professors will break it down for you as you go. It is good for meeting students before school starts though.
I wouldn't have done anything differently. Be prepared to hit the ground running. Do all the reading before class and be prepared to talk about it. Don't get behind. Outline after you finish bigger topics. Realize there is always a bigger picture than the daily topics. Usually you will cover a few bigger units per class. Keep that in mind when you're reading the smaller topics, it will make it easier to understand the class at the end of the semester.
Many people worked well in study groups (3-4 people). You can bounce around concepts from readings and discuss hypotheticals which will help with exam issue spotting. I recommend setting yourself up with a group the first few weeks of class and discussing the readings with them.
Enjoy 1L!
Hi, friends. I had this bookmarked so I wanted to reach out about my 0L prep in case anyone else is there now and looking for ideas on the matter.
I want to preface this by saying that I believe all of the law students and professors who have said there's no real way - and no real need - to prep for law school. I am positive that every 1L class is professor-specific, including the topics they focus on, which parts of those topics they emphasize and the writing style they prefer based on their past model exam answers. I get why people recommend just goofing off or enjoying the months leading up to it, especially because the workload will be so intense one you're out of the gate.
All that said, I feel the way @BinghamtonDave felt when he started this post. Only more so. I've also had the privilege of tons of extra time for the whole process. I finished grad school in 2004 and became a newspaper editor. I was a good student and I loved it, but it's been forever. And I'm the kind of person who plans and prepares big-time. The earliest I'll start is May (Cardozo May entry), and otherwise it will be September.
When I decided to go to law school three years ago, a friend of mine (179 LSAT, shit you not) who graduated from Columbia in 2006 told me she wished she had read Planet Law School by Atticus Falcon (pseudonym). (I have no relation or stake in his books or ideas.) The latest version was written in 2003, but I can't imagine 1L classes have changed that much in the past 20 years. I mean, of course they have changed in practical ways like taking notes and exams with our laptops, but the core concepts, and how to think, write and evolve as a lawyer? Those seem fundamental. The book is massive. But not really. And the thing is, it emphasizes how professor-specific each course will be. It's more about how to be a good law student no matter what. I was so excited that I read the 820 pages over about a month in 2018. It's also a book about what books to get. And boy is it a big list. I am NOT recommending anyone do this whole list or cram for law school. I'm just saying, here's what I'm doing, because again, I had the privilege of extra time.
These books pair nicely with the 7Sage Law School Curriculum, and if it's a choice between the books and 7Sage, stick with 7Sage.
One thing I learned from the LSAT is to never obsess. I'm taking these lessons with a grain of salt, really just because I'm so curious about the law and I want to get my feet wet with the concepts. I know the real learning begins when I meet the professors. I'm not holding myself to any strict deadlines, and I'll never get through it all by April, but at that point I'll put the books away (saving them to consult once I know what my real courses are like) and party for a week in New Orleans. I'm also reading my dad's Stephen King books because he had so many, and I'll never read them once I start law school.
So I'm sorry to write such a long post on a 5-month-old thread, but if anyone wants to continue this on a new thread and read some of these books with me, hit me up. If you all just think I'm a complete nut after this, well that's a risk I'm finally willing to take. Just know I have no reason to share this other than to offer ideas. Most of these are available used and relatively cheap on Amazon. I splurged for the "Like New" ones.
Delaney: Learning Legal Reasoning (finished)
Learning Criminal Law as Advocacy Argument (finished)
How To Do Your Best on Law School Exams (finished)
Aspen: The Law of Torts (Glannon) (finished)
Contracts (Blum) (finished)
Constitutional Law--National Power and Federalism (May & Ides)
Civil Procedure (Glannon)
Property (Burke & Snoe)
ABA: The ABCs of the UCC, Articles 2 and 1 (in that order)
Phew. Our friend Atticus also recommends getting ALI Restatements for Contracts and Torts, but I regret that and see it as overboard. He also suggests getting a CALI Library of Lessons Account and checking out the LEEWs CDs. That I'm dabbling in.
@BinghamtonDave @2ndTimestheCharm I am with both of you on this, and thank you so much for the book recommendation. Beyond just preparing for classes so you can hit the ground running, you have to opportunity to make sure you really want to spend three years of your life and however many thousands of dollars you have riding on it before you step in the classroom. Sure, we are all here (I hope) because we like our idea of what studying and practicing law is, but there is no denying that a very significant percentage of both law students and lawyers are miserable and regret their decision to pursue law school. Instead of assuming that can never be you, make sure you are down for your intended decades long career in law by taking some time to engage with what law school looks like ahead of time. Take some time so that you know what "facts of the case" even are before you step into the classroom. Make sure you understand the judiciary before you walk into constitutional or crim law classes. I am all about this new curriculum 7sage is offering and even though I am behind on my applications I think I am going to spend the 4+ hours today taking the crim law exam they are offering.
@BinghamtonDave I just realize that you posted this 5 months ago. Now that you are halfway through your first semester, how do you feel about this?
I added "Getting to Maybe." And I even finished "The Running Man." No, I don't think Stephen King is preparing me for law school. I just want to read for fun to start getting used to the idea of reading a lot, all the time. And it may be the last time I read for fun for a long time.
@2ndTimestheCharm I am happy to join in reading some of these books when I am done with the application process, and have settled what I am going to do about renewing my visa or moving to a new continent in March. Hopefully I can get an extension of some sort, because I would much prefer to prepare for law school away from the madness back in the States these days. I am waiting on that to purchase the 7sage law curriculum as well. Trying to do the Crim Law section, LSAT prep, and complete application essays at the same time as working was a disaster. A disaster that had me starting the Crim Law exam at 2:30 AM. I definitely only answered the first question at all credibly.
That's all by the by, but come late March or early April I am interested in getting a discussion/study group together.
Thanks for your response @VerdantZephyr
It's possible I'll be starting school in May (please accept me already, Cardozo!), but if not I'll be starting in August, so I'm going to keep casually reading all of the above books and updating this post when I finish them. You, and any other Sager, are welcome to chime in any time you're ready, and I'd love to have discussions about them. But no pressure. I'm treating this whole list as a no-pressure, casual experience. But for the most part (except for maybe Contracts), I'm really into the material!
Now that I'm starting at Cardozo (yay) in May, I'm tossing the Stephen King books. LOL. And I'm glad I mostly got all the way through Contracts and Crim Law since I'll be starting with those classes. Now I'm only going to finish Getting to Maybe and read How To Do Your Best on Law School Exams and that's more than enough.
Just reviving this post again to say that even though it seems like nothing exists besides the LSAT, the only time that E&E books really help is before you start - especially since that's the only time you'll have time for them. The Law School Explained videos on 7Sage are superior, but for those who like actual books, these Aspen E&Es are a good companion. They are for sale, and they did help me get good 1L grades. PM me if you're interested:
The Law of Torts (Glannon) 6th edition
Constitutional Law--National Power and Federalism (May & Ides) 3rd edition
Civil Procedure (Glannon) 8th edition
Property (Burke & Snoe) 6th edition