⚖ Official January 2021 LSAT-Flex Discussion Thread ⚖

cmoren21 · January 2021

As per the rules of this forum, I don't believe anyone has mentioned the game type. Correct me if I'm wrong. People give pieces of information, none that could be used to answer specific questions about any section. What takes one person 8 minutes could take another person 2, 4, 6, etc. LSAC rules and 7sage rules have not been broken. If someone mentions The Newspaper game being the most difficult. What exactly are you able to get from that? What if someone adds that the set up is difficult or that it took them 8 minutes. What are you able to figure out from that? What about if someone said the Physics vs. Chemistry was the most dense? What would that give you? What if they added that it is also the longest story? Would you be able to accurately answer any single question? It may change your attack strategy but it ends there. Also, wouldn't it change your attack strategy every time? There are 200 comments. Each comment is different because it comes from the view point of different individuals that took different exams. What if I told you that I found the Newspaper game to be the easiest? and that the Physics vs. Chemistry to be a breeze? Would you change your strategy again?

forthewinwin · January 2021

@wheresthegabagool said:

@forthewinwin said:

@Quasar180 said:
I am going to be a bit of a Karen, spurred by posts I've seen across the internet.

Is anyone else rather concerned at the level of leaked information out there regarding these exams? This forum, reddit, elsewhere, are all getting into which passages are the most difficult, which games are the most difficult, and so on. Indeed, I've seen several posts now of people happy they took the exam later since they knew what to expect.

Most of the information isn't going to help one achieve a better score, though. For example, someone mentions a question about newspapers in LG. But it can be anything from ordering newspapers, whether certain newspapers are included or not, certain people writing in newspaper in a certain order, newspapers being shredded in no particular order, the order of articles within a newspaper, etc. (None of these which were actually on the LSAT). The "Newspaper" subject can theoretically produce any variant of LG problem we know of. On a similar vein, you can replace the subject of Newspapers with fruits and produce a structurally similar problem.

This is obviously not true. I wrote on Sat and have seen very helpful RC commentary that I would agree with and would give me an advantage going in. Also just knowing that the "4th newspaper game is unconventional" is at the very least a strategy & mindset advantage.

Sounds like more of a psychological advantage than an actual one of what the LSAT is designed to test. In that case, doubt LSAC is that concerned about people feeling better or having a more adapted mindset prior to the exam. If LSAC is actually concerned, then it could randomize more of the exams they issue, especially in response to what it learns from internet forums... which judging from the posts on here and elsewhere, is what they sometimes do, as opposed to issuing many identical exams.

What helps one person may not help the next though, even when concerning mindset. For example, I found many of the online posts regarding exam content more misleading than anything. The science passage many people claim to be difficult, was actually the one I found the simplest. If I knew I would had jumped to it sooner and wasted less time on the other passages, and not have been caused to make guesses. Knowing that a LG question had to do with newspapers was not helpful in preparing for it. Will it make someone else sleep better at night and thus lead to a higher LSAT score? Maybe.

forthewinwin · January 2021

@wheresthegabagool said:

@gcoughlan said:

@wheresthegabagool said:

@forthewinwin said:

@Quasar180 said:
I am going to be a bit of a Karen, spurred by posts I've seen across the internet.

I’m not saying “RC was hard!” would help me. I’m saying “game 2 grouping wasn’t bad, but game 4 was a new set up and I only had 8 minutes left so I had to guess 3 Qs” is not useless information.

That is a lot more specific that the majority of the posts that circulate. Unless I missed it, haven't seen any on here or Reddit that point at a specific problem type. Most posts seem to concern about subject matter rather than the actual problem structure or tested skill. A question about newspaper, apples, oranges, teachers, doctors, etc. can all potentially produce a grouping, mixed, or Misc. type problem. Without knowing what the problem was actually testing, or the problem type, knowing that a question is about newspapers or apples isn't going to directly result in a better score. Unless you argue that it gives you comfort - in that case LSAC can decide if they're concerned about how people feel.

A given person struggling on a certain problem type(s) does not imply another will necessarily struggle either. Someone who strategically decides to spend less time on X question others claim to be hard, might actually find that question to be easy.

@cmoren21 said:
out from that? What about if someone said the Physics vs. Chemistry was the most dense? What would that give you? What if they added that it is also the longest story? Would you be able to accurately answer any single question?

Funny you mention that, if I did not actually read online posts about the exam, I would had actually spent more time on that one as opposed to other RC questions. I found it the easiest RC passage to digest, and knowing that the "Physics vs. Chemistry" was the most dense, even if true, wouldn't had likely helped me get more questions right.

woyboy2021 · January 2021

@Quasar180 said:
I am going to be a bit of a Karen, spurred by posts I've seen across the internet.

Is anyone else rather concerned at the level of leaked information out there regarding these exams? This forum, reddit, elsewhere, are all getting into which passages are the most difficult, which games are the most difficult, and so on. Indeed, I've seen several posts now of people happy they took the exam later since they knew what to expect.

I am entirely ok with someone saying a section was difficult. But when people get into the specifics of say, passage 1 is very hard, 2 is easy, 3 is easy, and 4 is very hard, it gives an absolutely massive advantage in avoiding time sinks, if not anything else. Advantages that people who take the exam earlier miss. Hell, even just saying "X passage/ game was really difficult" opens the door for me to easily strategize.

It is mind boggling how few unique sections this LSAT seems to have. As far as I can tell, there really aren't that many section options. In fact, it seems to come down to 1 of 2 sections for LG/RC/LR (might be wrong). People are still getting the same sections I got back on Saturday!

This is a problem. I am curious if the LSAC will notice scores creeping up as the week goes on.

I actually was thinking the same thing. I always spend the first minute of RC skimming to see which would be the most manageable and people who look on reddit, etc, would have a much easier time/ expectation going in. Kind of surprised that is allowed as well.

Ramens27 · January 2021

Oh no. I am so sorry to hear that. I hope that you did well!! I also have a Mac... do you know if there's any way to avoid those issues > @"denzel.sidhu" said:

wow my experience using a Mac was terrible, had so many security issues/downloading issues, could not get the chat box to appear, etc.... took about an hour of communication with tech assistance to final figure it out. completely threw me out of rhythm. FML

yoder · January 2021

I got LR - LG - RC

LR: low sodium tomato soup, CO2 and maple trees decomposing, proposal passed if/iff approved by committee or boss, orcas sharks sea lions, fraudulent company, humidity and salt in a glass case, tires stored for two years, psychotherapy/confidentially, summer and lights being on

*Thoughts from anyone who had this section? I found it to be very very easy and even kindof fun when I got to the more difficult questions bc I actually had a second to think about them

LG: 6 somethings; Paintings & Sculptures from 18th, 19th, 20th, century; Buildings upper/lower level; & Archaeologists

*Thought this was extremely standard and leaning towards easy. My only draw back was taking too long on game 1 which I do sometimes.

RC: Big Bang, Franz Kafka, Evasion Policies, Diplomacy

*Found this to be a very fair section. This is probably the best I've felt about an RC section ever, in terms of understanding and having certainty in a timely manner. Did Diplomacy 3rd bc I thought it was sent from hell, but I actually thought it was interesting/enjoyable and the questions were not unreasonable. Doing Evasion last, I got really lucky bc I flipped through the questions before reading and found that there was a question for each paragraph in isolation, so I actually read a paragraph at a time and answered the corresponding question right then.

Hopefully the exam actually went well and I'm not just delusional but I never know .___.

acquadiice · January 2021

think there are some misconceptions here about the amount of information needed to be constituted as cheating or having an unfair advantage. lets be clear, ANY information about the exam before going in to the exam will give those people an advantage. this is where you can argue how much of an advantage but there is no denying that there is one. the default reply to this is "how does knowing which game/passage/etc. was hard and help you do anything" i've even seen people try to argue "how does knowing the type of game help or i knew the game and what type it was and it still didnt help." this just baffles me, if you know which game is hard you know which game to save for last to attempt and even just save most of your time trying to get 3/4 games perfect before even attempting to do the last game. yes, this doesnt give you any additional points for that last game/passage/etc. but it also gives you a very clear strategy to attack that section without having to waste time or thought in to how to do the section in the most efficient way possible, and in turn, leading to a higher score than someone who had to parse through the section and waste time to do this with the same strat. for those people that even question if this is cheating clearly did not study this exam or have any clear understanding of it...

tl;dr - knowing things prior to the exam is cheating

This_is_Hard · January 2021

@acquadiice said:
think there are some misconceptions here about the amount of information needed to be constituted as cheating or having an unfair advantage. lets be clear, ANY information about the exam before going in to the exam will give those people an advantage. this is where you can argue how much of an advantage but there is no denying that there is one. the default reply to this is "how does knowing which game/passage/etc. was hard and help you do anything" i've even seen people try to argue "how does knowing the type of game help or i knew the game and what type it was and it still didnt help." this just baffles me, if you know which game is hard you know which game to save for last to attempt and even just save most of your time trying to get 3/4 games perfect before even attempting to do the last game. yes, this doesnt give you any additional points for that last game/passage/etc. but it also gives you a very clear strategy to attack that section without having to waste time or thought in to how to do the section in the most efficient way possible, and in turn, leading to a higher score than someone who had to parse through the section and waste time to do this with the same strat. for those people that even question if this is cheating clearly did not study this exam or have any clear understanding of it...

tl;dr - knowing things prior to the exam is cheating

Yup, totally agree. This is exam is a beast and having ANY information regarding the content of the exam is considered cheating because of the reasons you listed. The problem is, these discussions are bound to happen, there isn't really a way to regulate/control it. If people were not to discuss here, they would discuss via DMs and/or on another forum like reddit. So in a sense, discussing these themes in an open forum gives the savvy student an equal level playing field from a student who is getting this information from his/her friend who took the test.

CJtryinghisbest · January 2021

Does anyone have a strategy on what to do AFTER taking the LSAT. When to start studying again? Things of that nature. I took it two days ago. Not too much info on this out there.

TheMommaBear · January 2021

@CJtryinghisbest

I think it depends when you plan on retaking. I'm taking a two week break and plan to retake in June. I've ordered The Loophole and Mike Kim's LSAT Trainer and plan on incorporating those once I restart.

tdoddy713 · January 2021

All of the "gotcha" methods like time sinks and games that are supposed to take abnormally long are counterproductive to the entire purpose of the test in the first place.

The time pressure is already going to make test takers perform worse than if they were allowed to not have to rush through sections, so all of the extra BS if anything is just another barrier in getting an accurate evaluation of someone's true capabilities on the test as opposed to if they are savvy regarding the methods the test makers use. Why should you be penalized if it takes you 2 minutes to answer questions as opposed to 1:30, or because you didn't complete a game you actually could've finished because you were wasting time with a time trap? That says more about the circumstance than what you are truly capable of.

Knowing to skip a game or passage has no translation to any skills but can put two equally capable people into entirely different brackets of scores, in turn giving them entirely different law school prospects. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Shouldn't we be less worried about others "cheating to get a higher score" and more so why the LSAT goes so far out of its way to make people jump through hoops that don't matter and are irrelevant to being a lawyer?

TL;DR - Worried about the wrong issues

ongliwen28 · January 2021

Hello all! Took my LSAT 2 days ago and I got LR-LG-RC. I felt like I bombed LG which is supposed to be my best section. I felt it was a little more difficult compared to the usual prep tests. Spent too much time on the third game and completely messed up the last game sigh. LR and RC (my most unstable section) seemed okay - I got the passages on Kafka, Diplomacy, Pollution law and I can't remember the last one. Currently praying for the best, and probably will be taking in April because I felt I didn't do my best

I had technical difficulties that lasted around 20 mins before my test. A special shout out to my amazing proctors who never interrupted me once during the test, and even wished me the best at the end. You guys made my whole first LSAT experience better! Best of luck and God bless to all who took the Jan LSAT. WE DID IT!

This_is_Hard · January 2021

@tdoddy713 said:
All of the "gotcha" methods like time sinks and games that are supposed to take abnormally long are counterproductive to the entire purpose of the test in the first place.

The time pressure is already going to make test takers perform worse than if they were allowed to not have to rush through sections, so all of the extra BS if anything is just another barrier in getting an accurate evaluation of someone's true capabilities on the test as opposed to if they are savvy regarding the methods the test makers use. Why should you be penalized if it takes you 2 minutes to answer questions as opposed to 1:30, or because you didn't complete a game you actually could've finished because you were wasting time with a time trap? That says more about the circumstance than what you are truly capable of.

Knowing to skip a game or passage has no translation to any skills but can put two equally capable people into entirely different brackets of scores, in turn giving them entirely different law school prospects. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Shouldn't we be less worried about others "cheating to get a higher score" and more so why the LSAT goes so far out of its way to make people jump through hoops that don't matter and are irrelevant to being a lawyer?

TL;DR - Worried about the wrong issues

I have a couple friends who are in law school and they say the skills they learned studying for the LSAT, they use in and out side of law school. One buddy from columbia uses conditional logic to break down scenarios on exams, also he can read through dense material looking for the relevant material quickly.

What the LSAT is testing for is your success in law school. In my opinion, it is a good indicator of how well of a law student you can be as the skills needed to get a fantastic score is transferable to law school studies.

If we all had unlimited time to do the test, than yes we can see our true and maximum potential. But we live in a world where getting the right answers quickly and efficiently is more valuable than whether you can eventually get the right answer.

CJtryinghisbest · January 2021

@Metz9944 said:
@CJtryinghisbest

I think it depends when you plan on retaking. I'm taking a two week break and plan tor retake in June. I've ordered The Loophole and Mike Kim's LSAT Trainer and plan on incorporating those once I restart.

I have read most of the loophole. I highly recommend.

acquadiice · January 2021

@tdoddy713 said:
All of the "gotcha" methods like time sinks and games that are supposed to take abnormally long are counterproductive to the entire purpose of the test in the first place.

The time pressure is already going to make test takers perform worse than if they were allowed to not have to rush through sections, so all of the extra BS if anything is just another barrier in getting an accurate evaluation of someone's true capabilities on the test as opposed to if they are savvy regarding the methods the test makers use. Why should you be penalized if it takes you 2 minutes to answer questions as opposed to 1:30, or because you didn't complete a game you actually could've finished because you were wasting time with a time trap? That says more about the circumstance than what you are truly capable of.

Knowing to skip a game or passage has no translation to any skills but can put two equally capable people into entirely different brackets of scores, in turn giving them entirely different law school prospects. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Shouldn't we be less worried about others "cheating to get a higher score" and more so why the LSAT goes so far out of its way to make people jump through hoops that don't matter and are irrelevant to being a lawyer?

TL;DR - Worried about the wrong issues

this is hilarious to read... like what?

gcoughlan-1 · January 2021

@yoder said:
I got LR - LG - RC

LR: low sodium tomato soup, CO2 and maple trees decomposing, proposal passed if/iff approved by committee or boss, orcas sharks sea lions, fraudulent company, humidity and salt in a glass case, tires stored for two years, psychotherapy/confidentially, summer and lights being on

*Thoughts from anyone who had this section? I found it to be very very easy and even kindof fun when I got to the more difficult questions bc I actually had a second to think about them

LG: 6 somethings; Paintings & Sculptures from 18th, 19th, 20th, century; Buildings upper/lower level; & Archaeologists

*Thought this was extremely standard and leaning towards easy. My only draw back was taking too long on game 1 which I do sometimes.

RC: Big Bang, Franz Kafka, Evasion Policies, Diplomacy

*Found this to be a very fair section. This is probably the best I've felt about an RC section ever, in terms of understanding and having certainty in a timely manner. Did Diplomacy 3rd bc I thought it was sent from hell, but I actually thought it was interesting/enjoyable and the questions were not unreasonable. Doing Evasion last, I got really lucky bc I flipped through the questions before reading and found that there was a question for each paragraph in isolation, so I actually read a paragraph at a time and answered the corresponding question right then.

Hopefully the exam actually went well and I'm not just delusional but I never know .___.

I got this exam too. Feeling very ok about LR and RC. There was definitely a few tricky LR questions, but I found that the best answers popped out to me when I was reviewing the ones I had flagged. Overall it seemed like a really solid section and nothing crazy. RC seemed pretty straight forward too-- none of the passages had me bashing my head against the table and I wasn't finding myself struggling to eliminate answers which always feels good! I don't ever want to say any of it was "easy", but I made good time, answered every question, and was able to double check some of the ones that I flagged in each section.

I panicked on LG and I don't know what to expect there. I think if I had kept my head on straight I would have a good outlook for Feb 3rd but I feel very up in the air at this moment because of that. Regrettably, Game 1 was the only game that I finished in its entirety and I also spent far too long on it. I think test day anxiety got the best of me there and I find that making inferences under actual exam stress is significantly harder than in casual practice.

Personally, when I watch the clock tick away, I often abandon the "smart" method of solving games and start brute-forcing which is a horrible strategy. I felt like I was having an out-of-body experience and was watching myself fuck up but couldn't do anything about it.

hopefulling · January 2021

@Quasar180 I agree. I took the test on Sunday and was shocked that my RC were the same as those discussed from Saturday's test. I had looked into the term posted from the science passage when it was posted Saturday night out of science curiosity ... and seeing it on my actual test was such a shocker! Even seeing the weaving passage (seeing the prospect of a passage about weaving made me excited). I was also on the look-out for that 'last game,' knowing that it might be totally different. But there it was. I was NOT expecting that. I'd checked this forum prior to see if there were Proctor/other issues. I wonder if the curve will be reflective?? I felt so bad for the Saturday testers. Not so much the Tuesday testers, they seem to have had different topics. It's that constant 'luck of the draw' against our individual strengths/weaknesses.

I always thought about what would be my 'dream' types of passages for RC. And I am SO grateful that I didn't have that Kafka / anything philosophical passage (had trouble reading him in German!). Granted I didn't read it to know what was in it ;p , maybe it wasn't that difficult!!

hopefulling · January 2021

I just got an email that my Writing was approved - so fast! Woohoo. I never expected that to process so quickly. I was worried when I took it later Tuesday that I was pushing my luck. Hope everyone else's is processing smoothly and/or already approved.

cmoren21 · January 2021

The Podcast is out!

cmoren21 · January 2021

They’re talking about the concerns raised above lol 10/10 recommend listening to this.

cdanaher7 · January 2021

@jillharding1014 said:
I had LR, LG, and RC. Compared to the November Flex, I felt like the LR was definitely more difficult. I’m positive I encountered at least one question stem I’ve never even seen before. I also had many answers flagged because I was stuck between two, and LR is usually my best section by far. Seems like some people felt this LR was different from others as well?

I also felt LR was more difficult than usual, and it's also normally my best section. Glad to hear someone else felt the same way!

hhykate28 · January 2021

@cmoren21 said:
They’re talking about the concerns raised above lol 10/10 recommend listening to this.

what podcast?

cmoren21 · January 2021

@hhykate28 said:

@cmoren21 said:
They’re talking about the concerns raised above lol 10/10 recommend listening to this.

what podcast?

It's the PowerScore podcast. Comes out after every Flex.

wheresthegabagool · January 2021

Podcast Summary:
They believe every variant (with one exception) will be a curve of -8
The one exception is the combo of Orwell/Maple Trees LR + Newspaper LG which they believe will be -9

Curve is the # of Qs you can miss and hit 170. May 2020 curve was -9.

aszane21 · January 2021

@CJtryinghisbest said:
Does anyone have a strategy on what to do AFTER taking the LSAT. When to start studying again? Things of that nature. I took it two days ago. Not too much info on this out there.

First, I think we should all hold our collective horses until February 3. If the time comes and you decide to retake, I'd give yourself another week off. I'd also reflect on what you think led to your score on the Jan Test. (e.g. was it RC? LG?) I don't think I'll retake, but if I did I'd probably not use 7Sage since I think I've gotten all I can from it. The Loophole as well. I think I'd try the powerscore bibles (I like their podcast). I've also burned through all the recent PTs so not sure what to do there. Hopefully I'm right and I won't have to retake.

lalalala · January 2021

@wheresthegabagool said:
Podcast Summary:
They believe every variant (with one exception) will be a curve of -8
The one exception is the combo of Orwell/Maple Trees LR + Newspaper LG which they believe will be -9

Curve is the # of Qs you can miss and hit 170. May 2020 curve was -9.

If I would like to know the curve for a test , how can I find it ? For instance I would like to know the curve for the November 2018 test

forthewinwin · January 2021

@cmoren21 said:
@hhykate28 said:

@cmoren21 said:
They’re talking about the concerns raised above lol 10/10 recommend listening to this.

what podcast?

I am assuming this:
https://www.powerscore.com/lsat/podcast/

Not sure how creditable or accurate the source is, but perhaps someone else knows more about them. Also would prefer if they just wrote an article.

larathoon1 · January 2021

TERRIBLE, HORRIBLE, NO GOOD EXPERIENCE! LSAC/Proctor U really really really need to figure this out, if they're going to continue to administer the Flex. Even after testing my equipment weeks, a couple days, and the NIGHT before my exam, I couldn't download and open the "logmein" chat box. What they fail to test, or mention unless you go digging is that Macbooks require special permissions to use applets like "Logmein," in addition to focusing on if our computers have enough ram or whatever they test, maybe include a little section for MacOs users?!? Anyway, I waited to get connected to a live agent, who was able to take control of my computer, DO NOT ASK me how, the chat box thing suddenly started working. The agent then said "perfect, you can just restart chrome and it will work now". Guess what happened... it didn't work. I had to go through the process all over again, contact another AGENT who did the exact same thing, and said okay i'll leave now good luck... AND it still didn't work. Finally I did my own digging, thank you REDDITT!!!! I found some students who experienced the same issue. I followed the steps outlined there, and 35 minutes after my test was supposed to start, I was able to connect to a proctor. By this time i was so frazzled, and my anxiety was so high that for the first time, I wasn't able to finish a section. I never had this issue, even when i first started and did a cold diagnostic, to my very last PT a few days prior to the Jan 2021exam, even my first go at it, in the October LSAT flex I was able to finish comfortably. I am pretty sure my score will reflect my panic inducing run around, courtesy of Proctor U's lack of instructions on how to set up your system. Anyway, rant over. Moral of the story: if you're a Mac user, google "proctor U set up for Mac" before the day of the exam, there's a good Reddit thread on it.

acquadiice · January 2021

@"Madam TA" said:

@wheresthegabagool said:
Podcast Summary:
They believe every variant (with one exception) will be a curve of -8
The one exception is the combo of Orwell/Maple Trees LR + Newspaper LG which they believe will be -9

Curve is the # of Qs you can miss and hit 170. May 2020 curve was -9.

If I would like to know the curve for a test , how can I find it ? For instance I would like to know the curve for the November 2018 test

enter scores until you get a 170

forthewinwin · January 2021

@"Madam TA" said:

@wheresthegabagool said:
Podcast Summary:
They believe every variant (with one exception) will be a curve of -8
The one exception is the combo of Orwell/Maple Trees LR + Newspaper LG which they believe will be -9

Curve is the # of Qs you can miss and hit 170. May 2020 curve was -9.

If I would like to know the curve for a test , how can I find it ? For instance I would like to know the curve for the November 2018 test

Here: https://7sage.com/lsat-score-percentile-conversion/

rmmccoy94 · January 2021

@laura_lolo said:
Congrads to everyone who finished today! You must be somewhat relieved! I can't wait to be finished with this exam....I've never written the flex and just hoping someone knows whether size matters for the 5 pieces of paper allowed. I write really big and am worried 5 pages is not enough. Also can i use pens or do i have to use pencils? Also when i show the protactor using my phone my surroundings do you just shut it off then and can you slide it away? I don't think i own a small mirror so wondering how it works with the cell phone.

Thank you!!

Re: mirror, when I took it in May I was unaware of the mirror thing. It was the first one and I feel like a lot wasn't communicated. Anyway, my solution was to carry it into my bathroom and use the mirror there. That seemed to work for them

tdoddy713 · January 2021

@This_is_Hard said:

@tdoddy713 said:
All of the "gotcha" methods like time sinks and games that are supposed to take abnormally long are counterproductive to the entire purpose of the test in the first place.

The time pressure is already going to make test takers perform worse than if they were allowed to not have to rush through sections, so all of the extra BS if anything is just another barrier in getting an accurate evaluation of someone's true capabilities on the test as opposed to if they are savvy regarding the methods the test makers use. Why should you be penalized if it takes you 2 minutes to answer questions as opposed to 1:30, or because you didn't complete a game you actually could've finished because you were wasting time with a time trap? That says more about the circumstance than what you are truly capable of.

Knowing to skip a game or passage has no translation to any skills but can put two equally capable people into entirely different brackets of scores, in turn giving them entirely different law school prospects. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Shouldn't we be less worried about others "cheating to get a higher score" and more so why the LSAT goes so far out of its way to make people jump through hoops that don't matter and are irrelevant to being a lawyer?

TL;DR - Worried about the wrong issues

I have a couple friends who are in law school and they say the skills they learned studying for the LSAT, they use in and out side of law school. One buddy from columbia uses conditional logic to break down scenarios on exams, also he can read through dense material looking for the relevant material quickly.

What the LSAT is testing for is your success in law school. In my opinion, it is a good indicator of how well of a law student you can be as the skills needed to get a fantastic score is transferable to law school studies.

If we all had unlimited time to do the test, than yes we can see our true and maximum potential. But we live in a world where getting the right answers quickly and efficiently is more valuable than whether you can eventually get the right answer.

There's no doubt that the content of the test is important, and concepts like conditional logic and having the ability to parse dense material is beneficial. I also get not making the test 100% direct because lawyers have to pay extensive attention to detail and will not always be presented information in a clear cut manner... I just feel it's over-doing it to have so many nuances that can drastically effect scores but at the end of the day don't translate to anything... It's definitely a two sided argument because I know partners working in NYC Biglaw that have said the LSAT was the most pointless thing and it never crossed their mind again after they took it.

Conditional logic is a foundation of the test so that's definitely a necessary skill to have. However, I'm not sure that someone being able to parse a case for the most relevant material faster than someone else can really matters. At the end of the day, it's about knowing the facts and if you have to spend an extra couple hours per week than person X breaking down readings for law school, that's on you to have the time management to fit that in. But that's a time management consideration, not necessarily an aptitude consideration that should determine what law school you will be successful at. The speed-accuracy tradeoff (faster = less accurate) has been studied and is supported in literature throughout behavioral neuroscience, so while you might be able to do things faster there's also more room for error.

Not saying unlimited time is necessary or even realistic, but if the AVERAGE test taker was able to go through the test at a comfortable speed, I think scores would more accurately reflect as well. It seems to me that the only people who can get through sections comfortably and accurately are those who score high 160s-170+.. so that's only the top 10 percent of all test takers. If a 150s scorer (50th percentile roughly) and 170s scorer both can take the test at a comfortable pace, then it becomes an equalizer and now we are actually seeing the difference in skill and ability to answer questions rather than who was better able to operate within the rushed time constraint.

Remember, this is an ENTRANCE exam... if they want to distinguish the top scorers sooo bad then I think subject tests like on the SAT or an "AP" exam could help those more than just making the test one size fits all.

Definitely see your points though!

canihazJD · January 2021

@tdoddy713 said:

@This_is_Hard said:

@tdoddy713 said:
All of the "gotcha" methods like time sinks and games that are supposed to take abnormally long are counterproductive to the entire purpose of the test in the first place.

The time pressure is already going to make test takers perform worse than if they were allowed to not have to rush through sections, so all of the extra BS if anything is just another barrier in getting an accurate evaluation of someone's true capabilities on the test as opposed to if they are savvy regarding the methods the test makers use. Why should you be penalized if it takes you 2 minutes to answer questions as opposed to 1:30, or because you didn't complete a game you actually could've finished because you were wasting time with a time trap? That says more about the circumstance than what you are truly capable of.

Knowing to skip a game or passage has no translation to any skills but can put two equally capable people into entirely different brackets of scores, in turn giving them entirely different law school prospects. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Shouldn't we be less worried about others "cheating to get a higher score" and more so why the LSAT goes so far out of its way to make people jump through hoops that don't matter and are irrelevant to being a lawyer?

TL;DR - Worried about the wrong issues

I have a couple friends who are in law school and they say the skills they learned studying for the LSAT, they use in and out side of law school. One buddy from columbia uses conditional logic to break down scenarios on exams, also he can read through dense material looking for the relevant material quickly.

What the LSAT is testing for is your success in law school. In my opinion, it is a good indicator of how well of a law student you can be as the skills needed to get a fantastic score is transferable to law school studies.

If we all had unlimited time to do the test, than yes we can see our true and maximum potential. But we live in a world where getting the right answers quickly and efficiently is more valuable than whether you can eventually get the right answer.

There's no doubt that the content of the test is important, and concepts like conditional logic and having the ability to parse dense material is beneficial. I also get not making the test 100% direct because lawyers have to pay extensive attention to detail and will not always be presented information in a clear cut manner... I just feel it's over-doing it to have so many nuances that can drastically effect scores but at the end of the day don't translate to anything... It's definitely a two sided argument because I know partners working in NYC Biglaw that have said the LSAT was the most pointless thing and it never crossed their mind again after they took it.

Conditional logic is a foundation of the test so that's definitely a necessary skill to have. However, I'm not sure that someone being able to parse a case for the most relevant material faster than someone else can really matters. At the end of the day, it's about knowing the facts and if you have to spend an extra couple hours per week than person X breaking down readings for law school, that's on you to have the time management to fit that in. But that's a time management consideration, not necessarily an aptitude consideration that should determine what law school you will be successful at. The speed-accuracy tradeoff (faster = less accurate) has been studied and is supported in literature throughout behavioral neuroscience, so while you might be able to do things faster there's also more room for error.

Not saying unlimited time is necessary or even realistic, but if the AVERAGE test taker was able to go through the test at a comfortable speed, I think scores would more accurately reflect as well. It seems to me that the only people who can get through sections comfortably and accurately are those who score high 160s-170+.. so that's only the top 10 percent of all test takers. If a 150s scorer (50th percentile roughly) and 170s scorer both can take the test at a comfortable pace, then it becomes an equalizer and now we are actually seeing the difference in skill and ability to answer questions rather than who was better able to operate within the rushed time constraint.

Remember, this is an ENTRANCE exam... if they want to distinguish the top scorers sooo bad then I think subject tests like on the SAT or an "AP" exam could help those more than just making the test one size fits all.

Definitely see your points though!

The test predicts 1L grades and counts toward USNWR rank. That's why its used... easy and proven way to differentiate between applicants. Best way... who knows? Timing is the means used to standardize it. How well can you negotiate those nuances under pressure. The opposite extreme is unlimited time for everyone, which logistics aside would theoretically differentiate the same way... though you'd probably want to make the test harder. At that point it'd be like taking people's BR scores.

I think you'd like Malcolm Gladwell's podcast on this. Revisionist History Season 4 episode 1 and 2. There was a thread here too about it with a great discussion.

Edit: found it https://7sage.com/discussion/#/discussion/comment/139435

Episodes are called "Puzzle Rush" and "The Tortoise and the Hare."

Jay Tee · January 2021

@larathoon1 said:
if you're a Mac user, google "proctor U set up for Mac" before the day of the exam, there's a good Reddit thread on it.

I'm having trouble finding which thread, would you mind posting the link to it?

struggle · January 2021

@wheresthegabagool said:
Podcast Summary:
They believe every variant (with one exception) will be a curve of -8
The one exception is the combo of Orwell/Maple Trees LR + Newspaper LG which they believe will be -9

Curve is the # of Qs you can miss and hit 170. May 2020 curve was -9.

How accurate have these been in the past?

sakethsaran1998-1 · January 2021

@struggle said:

@wheresthegabagool said:
Podcast Summary:
They believe every variant (with one exception) will be a curve of -8
The one exception is the combo of Orwell/Maple Trees LR + Newspaper LG which they believe will be -9

Curve is the # of Qs you can miss and hit 170. May 2020 curve was -9.

How accurate have these been in the past?

Surprisingly accurate. A major reason for this accuracy is that LSAC doest vary their curves too much. -9 is probably one their most generous ones.

ericchoi12 · January 2021

@struggle said:

@wheresthegabagool said:
Podcast Summary:
They believe every variant (with one exception) will be a curve of -8
The one exception is the combo of Orwell/Maple Trees LR + Newspaper LG which they believe will be -9

Curve is the # of Qs you can miss and hit 170. May 2020 curve was -9.

How accurate have these been in the past?

they've been pretty damn accurate. I heard for may 2020 they predicted -8 when it turned out to be -9, but overall they seem to be pretty accurate (hard to say 100% tho because may 2020 is the only flex test we have a released curve for). Keep in mind powerscore says they're being conservative w/ their estimates because it's better to be extra strict than give someone false hope. they said that for the -8s they predicted for this exam, they wouldn't be surprised if some of them swung to -9, but the only combination where they're confident w/ a -9 for is Kafka + maple tree LR w/ Newspaper LG.

Kristy J · February 2021

Does anyone know what time scores will be released?

hopefulling · February 2021

usually 9am eastern

therealvancityhipster · February 2021

For any people who did their first writing sample for the Jan 2021 LSAT Flex, many days roughly did it take for LSAC to approve your writing sample?

cpccall608 · February 2021

@therealvancityhipster said:
For any people who did their first writing sample for the Jan 2021 LSAT Flex, many days roughly did it take for LSAC to approve your writing sample?

Mine was approved within 24 hours

hopefulling · February 2021

@therealvancityhipster Same as above, ~~one day~~ whoops, two days (I think just under since I did my Writing a bit later in the day). I didn't have anything on my desk except for one sheet of paper and a single pencil and was rather meticulous about the room scan (I re-scanned the room when realized I hadn't shown that my paper was blank). Scanned the room just like I did for the test (except I didn't use a mirror to show the front of the computer).

kkole444 · February 2021

I feel like there has been a constant drum roll going on in my head for this score to come in ahahah

dutchiebrown · February 2021

@therealvancityhipster said:
For any people who did their first writing sample for the Jan 2021 LSAT Flex, many days roughly did it take for LSAC to approve your writing sample?

Four

asdf12345 · February 2021

t-2 hours till scores come out
i'm ready to get hurt and go die in a hole

PatrickGeorgeAF · February 2021

173!

TheMommaBear · February 2021

I logged on this morning merely so I could cancel my score (first time test taker). After taking the exam I knew I bombed it because I freaked on LG. I took my diagnostic on Dec 4 2020 (153), and studied until Dec 18, after which elementary schools were shut down and both of my kids were home until Jan 25th. Received my score today and am still a bit shocked that I didn't completely bomb it. It's not good enough to be accepted, but it's so close that I know with a few months of studying I can achieve a score that will guarantee acceptance, especially since LG is my weakness.

I hope the rest of you did better than expected, or achieved the score you were aiming for!! If not, you will get there. The amount of determination I see on this site is admirable.

_iamnw96 · February 2021

does anyone know that actual curves for this test?

jabarrineau · February 2021

Well, I closed out on test day having a bad feeling - knowing that I had deviated from my strategy and it didn't work in my favor. This morning I found out exactly how much it didn't work. I started my diagnostic in November at 149, and had a couple of 159/160 PT's just before test day.
I came out with a 151 on the January Flex. Trying not to be discouraged. I guess bad days just happen sometimes. Back to the grind for April.

SpinnerT · February 2021

@jabarrineau
Hey there. Same here. I was PTing around a 163/162 leading up to the exam. I scored a 155. I'm so frustrated. Hang in there, keep your head up. It's hard even being on the chat some times because there are so many high performers... trying to resist the constant need to compare. Bad days happen indeed. Best of luck to you!

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

Related Discussions

⚖ Official January 2021 LSAT-Flex Discussion Thread ⚖

Comments