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T14 or Bust?
lalalala
Member
Do you think you can only be successful so long as you go to a t14 or do you think you can be successful career-wise in any school you attend ??
Admin note: edited title to comport with meme
Comments
Being only 23 and not knowing much about the legal profession, I don't think going to a T14 is a necessary condition for success (sry to be THAT guy who weaves LSAT terminology into a response). Malcom Gladwell has an awesome podcast on the LSAT and the legal profession. His argument focuses on the classic story of the tortoise and the hare. You'd imagine a good lawyer would be more like a tortoise: diligent, thoughtful, and wise. Yet top law schools and the LSAT award people who are hares; those who can answer questions / read passages under intense time constraints.
Gladwell tracks a few examples of lawyers who did not go to T14 law schools and are still pillars in the legal profession. His argument, which I believe, is that these lawyers became successful precisely because they were tortoises. Long story short, your success is not guaranteed because of your law school but rather because of some personal characteristics (i.e. determination, hardwork). Hope this helps
I definitely agree. If you're interested it's Season 4, Episodes 1-2 of the Revisionist History podcast. It's worth a listen! I've also attached a link to the reference doc from the podcast: https://www.repository.law.indiana.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1342&context=facpub
Neither the President nor the Vice President of the United States of America attended a T-14 law school. Or T-20. Or T-50.
A T14 school definitely has its advantages because they are recognized for being the top law schools in the country. They say they guarantee a career right after graduation and usually it is well paying. However, this can also happen for someone that doesn't attend a T14. I agree with @qcolo1224, going to a top law school isn't necessary for success and I really like their analogy of the tortoise vs. the hare
I for one will not be attending a top law school. I am applying to a school within my region and even though it isn't a T14, I am happy about it. There are plenty of career opportunities and networking opportunities within my school also.
The lawyer on Making a Murderer, Kathleen Zellner, makes millions of dollars and she attended Northern Illinois University College of Law, which is ranked No. 148-194...so bottom tier, and look at how successful she is. I know she is one extreme example, but still lol.
Another way that I look at it is this, everyone that graduates a law school, whether it be a top tier or a bottom tier, we all take the same Bar Exam and receive the same license. Once you start your career, nobody is really going to care where you went to school so long as you are trustworthy, know your shit, and you are good at your job
I've wondered this too, but from the standpoint of...would it actually be super beneficial to go to a non-T14 and be more of a big fish in a smaller pond? Idk. I went to a really elite, competitive undergrad institution and it was psychological hell the majority of the time. It's had its long-term benefits with a robust alum network, but I'm not sure if I could say it was worth it with a very convincing smile.
Also wanted to say you can absolutely be successful and not go to a T14, but it also depends on your definition of success. My uncle is a super successful lawyer in my eyes, but he didn't even go to a T50 school. He went to a school in the city where he wanted to practice and made tons of vital connections there. He owns his own firm and is a very important attorney in the city.
It is important for anyone to have their own definition success. If you go to law school, regardless of the career choice you will likely be "successful" to the average person. Success for some is Big Law or bust, for others its small to mid size firms or public office. Each with their advantages and drawbacks. No doubt that T14 will open doors not only immediately after but throughout one's career that other lower ranked schools may not, but it by no means guarantees that you will have a successful career. No firm is going to judge an excellent lawyer by their law school, their bottom line matters to them a lot more than the ranking of any law school.
I am a random person (first warning) who has heard (second warning) that the big fish small pond thing often doesn't work out as well as you would think. There might be much more parity than you would think.
Question for you: What is a hyper competitive school like? I have always wanted to know. When I went to school, no one really talked to each other. And I really liked it that way.
As someone who works at a Big Law firm right now, I can tell you that some of the best and smartest attorneys I've ever worked with did not graduate from T14 schools. In fact, some of my favorite lawyers graduated from law schools I had never heard of until I found out these schools through them. And yet, their names on are the pleadings of the some really cool cases, and for these big clients. And they're absolutely ruling at what they do.
So, in short, I think going to a T14 does give you that added "prestige" boost; however, in terms of success in the legal field, I can tell you that a T14 isn't the only way to go.
I just want to add that while I agree with what everyone has said here - you need to make your own cost/benefit decisions.
T-14 or bust is almost never the right mindset; instead the mindset should be something like "how much debt am I looking at? Where do I want to practice? What do I want to make after graduation? What kind of law interests me the most? Can I afford moving away from friends and family? Do I want national recognition of the degree or is local okay?"
There is no single answer for everyone. Some instances might be closer to t-14 or bust while others might be any degree that gets them into law.
All of this is to say, make sure you're making the best decisions FOR YOU, we're all strangers and only you know what you want to do and what you're willing to risk/spend/acquire to get there.
A school's ranking does not determine your success. It's honestly sad that most people are conditioned to believe that. Not everyone is going to Harvard or Yale, nor does everyone want to. Yes, going to a T-14 would help you tremendously in getting a job and getting ahead, but there is more to a person than where they got their law degree. If you plan on living in a big city with a highly competitive and diluted market, then i would say go big or go home. But other than that you can be as successful as you want to be. If you don't know how to talk and connect to people that degree is worth as much as a piece of paper. Personally, I think if you're stuck on rankings you need to take a step back and determine if you really want to be a lawyer. I have always wanted to be a lawyer, so no matter what school i attend i know i control my own success. Whether i went to the best or worst law school, i always knew that i wanted to go. If you feel the same way as me, then don't let a ranking deter you from achieving what you want to!
@lalalala, this is from Leiter himself:
https://www.top-law-schools.com/brian-leiter-interview.html
Also discussed in the above interview is the oft-ignored point that, to the extent that rankings are useful, rank by AOS is a far more meaningful consideration for your career path than is overall US News rankings. In this respect, relying on US News rankings to make your decision can do more harm than good.
Hi, you might be interested in a podcast that Malcolm Gladwell did on this topic.
Plenty of schools have successful people outside of the T-14's and there's no reason to believe that the market will change that drastically in the coming years. It might be useful to look at employment and salary data of the schools outside the random category of the top 14 law schools.
You can look up each school’s ABA data to see how their alumni line up with what you want to do, to give a general idea if that school will help you succeed. That said, you can totally be successful outside of t-14 in most things
I agree with the overall sentiment of this thread, but I think a key detail has been omitted. Yes, you don’t need to go to a T14 to be a successful attorney. Besides, as many have mentioned, “success” is very subjective, and for the layman, law degrees in general are seen as prestigious.
However, if you plan on going to a school outside of the T14, debt precipitously becomes a greater issue the further down the rankings you climb. If you do not mind a starting salary of $65K (which should be the expected outcome for a more average law school given the bimodal distribution), that’s perfectly fine. Just keep in mind that going $200K into debt for that outcome may be crippling.
T14 grads may face the same fate if they pay sticker and are below median in their class, but I am just speaking in terms of the aggregate student. That said, if you can get a substantial scholarship or have the means to pay upfront for your education, I would just go to the school that employs well in the sector of your greatest interest.
To the above posts point, there is a sweet spot in admissions. I got waitlisted at 1 T-20 school and denied from all others I applied. Also, I got massive scholarships at several T-25s and below. Will it be harder to go to big law anywhere in the country for me? Probably. Can I now graduate with less than 20k in debt? Yes. So, just because you can't make it to the T14 doesn't mean you don't get to be a lawyer. Unless you want to work for The Supreme Court, don't let your placement stop you.
rank by AOS
Forgive my ignorance, what is rank by AOS? Area of study?
I mean, there were pros and cons. People talked to each other socially but when it came to coursework people would not help one another, to the point of refusing to share notes if someone missed class, etc. I was coming from a public school background and most of the kids there were coming from elite private school background, so it was a big culture shock and transition for me.
Hyper competetive school ( Private)
1, Folks use to run between classes so that they can sit in the first row and answer to questions
2, Assignments stopped being assignments, and they used to look like a work of art, or a grad school thesis. Dad's usually spend money on hiring writers if junior could not write it himself
3, Folks speaking about vacations in Europe would make be feel bad about my life and vacations in upstate Michigan
4,And the cliques. Need to be either extremely intelligent, wealthy or beautiful ( any one would work) to survive.
The profession is becoming grossly competitive. Just look at the number of applicants that frequent 7sage and other prep sites. The prospect of making real money is more likely in the LSAT prep business than in the actual practice of law. The sector is only expected to grow 5% from 2020-2029 I believe. That is very conservative growth given the prodigious number of law students. Will the wave of law school apps subside? Who knows; its all speculative. Just know what you're getting into given the current (as well as previous) stats. For a LARGE proportion of graduates, the future does not look rosy and bright. With that said, if you're attending outside of the T14, be sure you aren't paying anything close to sticker. If you don't have a significant scholarship lined up, take another year off and study the Lsat some more. In conclusion, if you're driven, sure, you can be successful at anything. There are certainly young law grads coming out of schools far from the T14 that build highly successful careers. They're in the minority, however. Also, they likely didn't seek out confirmation from peers as to what their prospects might be: they had faith in themselves. If you are seriously questioning your options, trust your instincts, and recalibrate. If you have faith, go for it.
The T-14 distinction is a ridiculous construct that probably needs to die. Does anyone believe that there's a big drop-off in quality between Georgetown and UCLA/UT Austin? If we have to keep an elite tier of schools (do we?) we should think about expanding it to the T-18 or something by adding UCLA, UT Austin, WUSTL, and Vandy, if only for geographical diversity.
Now, hoping off my high horse.
Every school has upsides and downsides. I wouldn't be surprised if some state schools (Washington or Illinois for example) still have great professors and place people in big firms even if they may have slipped in the rankings.
Above the Law's rankings have schools no were near the T-14 ranked higher that T-14 schools. Its all subjective.
At least it's a vacation!
This is what I figured. As I said, I never talked to anyone so maybe I was in a competitive school and didn't even know it haha.
I wrote an article on this exact topic that you might find helpful: https://7sage.com/does-attending-a-t14-law-school-matter/ I am currently an admissions consultant for 7Sage but started my career in Big Law, transitioned to in-house and then worked as real estate counsel for a government agency. I can assure you that attending a law school outside of the T14 does not preclude you from having a successful career.
From the way you ask the question, I think the answer is yes. I believe I am in the same boat, but allow me to explain my thinking.
There are more lawyers than stable jobs requiring JDs. Top law schools have therefore become a selection mechanism for large firms that would otherwise expend substantial resources finding the best candidates for very "soft" (i.e. qualitatively nuanced) professional roles. So, if you are someone looking for a structure that leads to positive employment outcomes without other inputs or considerations to the question, the T-14 are your ticket.
That said, the person who said that T-14 is not a necessary condition to career success is spot-on. Particularly if you're coming to the legal profession with other context, passions, experience, goals, or connections, you can make the education work for you at a local feeder school or other school as a waypoint to your goals. My cousin worked in an administrative capacity for a company until they agreed to pay for his law degree. He went to T-50 and now works as an associate at a leading IP firm. Not sure I'm parsing this right, but there are plenty of people who approach law school as a tool very specific to pre-existing practice goals.
A shortcut to this "embeddedness" within legal culture (something I think you and I both lack) is to target a practice area early. Look up the best schools in that practice area and apply to those with the lowest bars to entry. If you're looking for maximum ratio of career return to investment in law school admissions, that alternate course could work well.
This question assumes the person has T-14 credentials. My answer is prefaced on a choice between T-14 sticker vs. lower-ranked full-ride.
Before law school I had a T-14 or bust mentality. After being waitlisted or rejected at the T-14 I took a full-tuition scholarship to a T-20 school. If I'd have got off a T-14 waitlist I would've been paying a lot more for my education and taking on debt. I had not anticipated attending the T-20 school before their offer, but something told me it was the right choice. It was one of the best decisions I ever made.
My school is in a cheaper part of the country, so I pay bills with savings from post-undergrad work. My tuition is covered, so I don't spend all day thinking about debt. I know my classmates worry about this. I started school knowing that this school wanted me. They didn't treat me like I was lucky to have been offered a seat. I felt good being here. I knew that they thought I could succeed. I wouldn't have felt this getting off the T-14 waitlist. That difference, if only slight and marginal, helped me get good grades. I now have a 1L summer associate position at my first-choice firm.
When I applied for the SA role, I told them a compelling story about why they're the right fit for my career goals. I knew this through networking and law school events. I seriously doubt they cared about the prestige of my school. They cared about grades, work experience, soft skills, interveiwing abilities, creativity, personability, "fit" within the firm, shared goals, things well beyond the law school name on my resume. They didn't care about geographic ties either. A T-14 won't give you those skills any more than a T-20 will. If anything, a T-14 might hamper your chances at getting top grades (assuming they are more academically competitive, which isn't certain).
TL;DR - I think people underestimate the burden of debt. I think employers care more about grades and soft skills than they do the name on your resume.
Really great context. Appreciate you sharing this (your) truth @"Rigid Designator" ! Congratulations on the SA. As I understand, that's rather rare in 1L?
Cheers!