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LARamsNationLARamsNation Member
edited January 2016 in General 592 karma
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Comments

  • DumbHollywoodActorDumbHollywoodActor Alum Inactive ⭐
    edited October 2015 7468 karma
    If everyone is permitted to swim at some time during each day, and from noon-5pm kids under 6 aren’t permitted, and after 5pm only adults, we can infer that children under 5 must be permitted to swim before noon. Right?

    Must be trues, like necessary assumptions, must follow the negation test (when you negate an answer, it should contradict the stimulus. If it doesn’t, it’s NOT a Must BE True). If we negate (B), then Bilba’s next-door neighbor has a child under 6, AND the Barton pool is NOT open before noon. That clearly contradicts the inference we made from above.
  • LARamsNationLARamsNation Member
    592 karma
    But that's exactly my point. "being permitted" doesn't equate to actually "doing the act." Isn't it a big leap to make the assumption that just because someone is permitted to do something, they in fact do it? The explanation given for this question would be somewhat understandable if it was MSS, but I still don't see how it's a MBT. And it's my understanding that the negation test works 99% of the time, not always. I think this is a case of the 1%. It doesn't contradict the statement above because the pool can be open without Bibla's neighbor's child under 6 actually going to the pool.

    I know there are copyright issues with listing questions so I'll (hopefully) change enough of the stimulus to not get anyone in trouble.

    Everyone in Hank's district is permitted to swim at Babaloo Pool at some time during each day that it is open. No children under the age of 6 are permitted to swim at Babaloo Pool between noon and 5 P.M. From5 P.M. until closing, Babaloo Pool is reserved for adults only.

    So according to the LSAC it MUST BE TRUE, from above, that:

    If Hank's next-door neighbor has a child under the age of 6, then Babaloo Pool is open before noon.

    IMO, they botched the necessary condition of that statement. If Hank's neighbor has a kid under 6, THEN the pool is open before noon? Wtf? Does the entire town's children under the age 6 ability to use the pool lay in the hands of Hank's neighbors having a child under 6 years old?! See what I'm getting at? Apologies if I'm missing a clear portion of the argument that would otherwise solve my qualm.
  • DumbHollywoodActorDumbHollywoodActor Alum Inactive ⭐
    7468 karma
    @movanation said:
    f Hank's neighbor has a kid under 6, THEN the pool is open before noon?
    Sorry to get Socratic on you, but can you negate this statement for me. i just want to see your thought process.
  • DumbHollywoodActorDumbHollywoodActor Alum Inactive ⭐
    edited October 2015 7468 karma
    @movanation said:
    And it's my understanding that the negation test works 99% of the time, not always.
    What’s your source for that? My understanding of something that must be true is that its negation is impossible. That’s literally how I define something that must be true.
  • nicole.hopkinsnicole.hopkins Inactive Sage Inactive ⭐
    7965 karma
    @DumbHollywoodActor said:
    What’s your source for that?
    Yeah. My thoughts.
  • LARamsNationLARamsNation Member
    edited October 2015 592 karma
    Well, from my general understanding of the exam there are no 100% shortcuts that ALWAYS work. Admittedly, it may have been from a Manhattan book or something, but it's moot because anyway you want to do the contrapositive, the original statement is what I take issue with, rendering the contrapositive useless in the determination of the correct answer choice.

    I see what you're getting at, I may have screwed up the negation in the contrapostive. But even if we take any version of the contrapositive above I still don't see how it works

    My original contrapositive:

    "If the Barton pool is closed before noon, then Biba's next door neighbor does not have a child under the age of 6" -- I see here I could of screwed up with a double negative. However, any other way I can think of to write the contrapositive still doesn't make sense.

    Your contrapositive, (or at least my interpretation of it):

    "If the Barton pool is closed before noon, then Biba's neighbor has a child under 6?"

    How does that contradict anything?

    I feel as though this was incorrectly written as a conditional statement, presuming that the ability to use the pool, as explicitly stated in the stimulus, equates to the act of actually using it.

  • DumbHollywoodActorDumbHollywoodActor Alum Inactive ⭐
    edited October 2015 7468 karma
    @movanation Aha! Now I see your reasoning error. You’re equating a contrapositive with negation. They’re not the same things. Contrapositives are equivalent statements. To make a contrapositive, negate both conditions and reverse them. (A-->B is equivalent to /B-->/A)

    But negating a statement is entirely different. The negation of a conditional statement like
    A --> B is A some/B or A and /B.
    (Check out this lesson for review:http://7sage.com/lesson/deny-the-relationship/ and http://7sage.com/lesson/how-to-negate-statements-in-english/)

    So to answer your question to negate the statement "If Hank's next-door neighbor has a child under the age of 6, then Babaloo Pool is open before noon.” I’d say that "Hank's next-door neighbor has a child under the age of 6 AND Babaloo Pool is NOT open before noon". Do you see how that contradicts the stimulus? According to the stimulus this is impossible and therefore the original statement (If Hank's next-door neighbor has a child under the age of 6, then Babaloo Pool is open before noon) must be true.
  • DumbHollywoodActorDumbHollywoodActor Alum Inactive ⭐
    7468 karma
    @movanation said:
    Well, from my general understanding of the exam there are no 100% shortcuts that ALWAYS work.
    I would never consider The Negation Test a short cut. It’s more often a scenic route. In fact, I rarely use it for MBT questions because there’s usually a faster way. But it is a tried and true method for figuring out if something must be true or not. That’s why it’s so effective with Necessary Assumptions.
  • LARamsNationLARamsNation Member
    592 karma
    Ah, Ok THAT makes sense. I know negating and attaining contrapositives are different, but I see how I wasn't articulating myself correctly now lol. Ugh, one of those days...did crappy on a PT test too. Weird though, I always assumed that when you see a conditional statement and want to negate it you still treat, negate, and read it as a conditional statement, not an "and" statement. Thanks for all the insight @DumbHollywoodActor !
  • DumbHollywoodActorDumbHollywoodActor Alum Inactive ⭐
    7468 karma
    @movanation said:
    Thanks for all the insight
    My pleasure! :)
  • c.janson35c.janson35 Free Trial Inactive Sage Inactive ⭐
    2398 karma
    Not to belabor the point, but th negation test will work 100% of the time..not 99% of the time or even 99.99% of the time. The reason is because a necessary assumption is something that is REQUIRED for an argument to hold. If that assumption were to be removed, then there would be no chance for it to hold, it would be completely destroyed. If the argument can still be valid without an alleged necessary assumption, then the assumption is not necessary. Necessary= something you cannot be without. So, 100% of the time, the negation test works every time.
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