More than 10 point difference BR vs timed PT!

Comments

• 1 Like

  Campo1995 Alum Member

  November 2015 74 karma

  You will invariably score less on your PT's compared to your BR scores, so I would not be alarmed by scoring ~10 points less. You definitely can reduce the gap as you continue taking tests. I would really work on your BR process, don't rush through BR and don't be afraid to spend about 10 minutes a question when BR'ing. Don't get discouraged! If you are aiming for a 160 and you can BR in the 160's right now then it is in your grasp! You just need to nail down the concepts that lead you to the right answers when you BR, this way you will be able to apply them during your PT almost subconsciously. Goodluck studying!
• 2 Likes

  nordeend Alum Member

  November 2015 349 karma

  @louis2014 Stop taking PTs! When you say you feel like you know the material you are clearly wrong. You dont know the material (at least as well as you think you do). You need to go back to the basics and camp out until you have them down. Go back to the beginning of the curriculum and take your time. Stop wasting PTs though, for real. Also, in your BR are you taking your time or rushing through it?
• 1 Like

  twssmith Alum ⭐

  November 2015 edited November 2015 5120 karma

  @nordeend said:
  Stop taking PTs!
  

  Please heed this advice! I just restarted the curriculum and it is very hard to not gloss over areas thinking that I "get it" when in actuality the concept has not penetrated beyond superficial level. If you are starting the Trainer over again, which I am currently doing in conjunction with 7Sage, really work on identifying the argument structure and flaw with every example not just what the exercise is explaining. This can rattle me especially on question's I have seen before emphasizing that I might have gotten the right answer but the path was flawed. I believe in the Mentors advice that building good fundamentals thru the study process followed by repetition in the PT/BR process will lead to score improvement.
  As JY repeats - The LSAT is hard!! That doesn't mean it cannot be conquered. Challenge yourself to truly invest while reviewing. Hope this helps and all the best:)
• louis2014 Alum Member

  November 2015 190 karma

  Hello, thank you. I usually take a lot time during BR. I take around 3 hours per section. That includes solving and checking the answers. I think this is the problem, right?
  
  During BR, I make sure that I understand the stimulus completely. I think that's a wrong thing to do. Sometimes I spend more than 5-10 minutes per question. However, during timed PT, I just roughly understand the stimulus.
  
  A dumb question, do you fully understand the stimulus when you do a timed PT? Sorry, it is a dumb question, but I am dumb.
  
  I tried two methods, one is by trying to go over as many questions as possible to collect the easy ones. But what happened is that I lost accuracy. I didn't do well. I was averaging 12 wrong per LR section. Today I tried to spend as much time as I need per question and was thinking even if I leave 5-6 questions then I would still be better than what I am at now. Nope, it still didn't work.
  
  @nordeend , I am afraid that I am wasting PTs too. I am rushing up during PT and panicking too that I don't understand the stimulus.
• 2 Likes

  Sheri123 Alum Member

  November 2015 1196 karma

  Hi louis2014, You are not dumb, this is a tough test & this is a learning process and you are obviously smart enough to stop and ask for help if you see something isn't working. Did you go through the whole curriculum or did you just passively watch the videos?. If you haven't really gone through the curriculum thoroughly it might be a good place to start. If you have, maybe see where your LSAT Analytics shows you are missing the most questions and focus on building those skills. To answer your question above, I try to make sure I fully understand the stimulus, but sometimes they can be convoluted and it can be difficult. If that is the case I try to at least get a good sense of structure and identify the argument parts, conclusion, premise and context. Usually for me at least I find it is more confusing when they throw a lot of irrelevant context in that you have to weed through, or when they use trigger words that make you think a conclusion is being stated but realize it isn't. I think some of the guys that have been doing this longer can probably give you better feedback. However I did want you to know that this is difficult for most of us, and you are not the only one struggling to do your best, so please be kinder and more patient with yourself.
• 4 Likes

  rikko Member

  November 2015 20 karma

  I feel your pain... Yes, the LSAT is a bitch. I struggle with it as well. Here's my approach. Doing timed PT's is important, because it makes you aware about the relationship between time and your score (did I say relationship?). However, I agree with our colleagues that the un-timed test (or BR) is very much important. Look, as a musician, I have learned a simple lesson. You can't play fast, until you learn how to play slow. We all read about those people who on their first PT scored165 etc... Assumptions, assumptions. How do we knows that they don't lie? If you can do 147 now, longer you practice, you will be doing better - 157 or more.. That is a "law of nature!" Don't get fooled by a posted bullshit, don't get frustrated. Run with your own program and you'll be OK! Cheers
• 2 Likes

  Sheri123 Alum Member

  November 2015 1196 karma

  Just for encouragement I started at 144 on my first cold PT in September (studying & (about 16 PTs) about 30 hours or more at some times per week) and am now scoring consistently fortunately/unfortunately at 162. I am thankful for the improvement, just having trouble getting over the plateau now even with the BR. I think I'm going to continue PTs and finish reading the trainer and also go back through the curriculum & focus on my weak areas usually Flaw, Parallel Reasoning and Necessary assumption for me.
• 1 Like

  Elle2015 Alum Member

  November 2015 198 karma

  @louis2014 said:
  A dumb question, do you fully understand the stimulus when you do a timed PT? Sorry, it is a dumb question, but I am dumb
  

  You don't seem dumb. This question definitely doesn't make you dumb. For me, the vast majority of the time, I fully understand the stimulus. If I don't, I skip that question and come back to it later.
  
  My advice would be first, to not be so hard on yourself and second, to put the PTs aside for a bit. I don't know how you went through the 7sage curriculum, but I would suggest that you go through all of the sample LR curriculum videos that you have access to again while doing a few things. Before you watch the video, try to solve the question on our own. If you have the tests, use them and solve the problem properly on paper. Time yourself while doing it. Use a stopwatch and not a countdown timer. Try to do each question in under 1 min 25 sec., but if you can't, take a little bit more time. When you finish, BR that question. Then watch the video. Compare your method to JY's. If there's anything weird about that question that doesn't sit right with you, review the basics behind it and/or ask for help. After that, move on to the next question and do each of them this way.
  
• louis2014 Alum Member

  November 2015 190 karma

  Thank you all very much for your input. I will stop PTing and head back to the curriculum again. When I went through the curriculum second time, I didn't watch all JY's solution for the problem sets. I will do that this time. Thank you
• 1 Like

  nordeend Alum Member

  November 2015 349 karma

  @rikko said:
  Look, as a musician, I have learned a simple lesson. You can't play fast, until you learn how to play slow
  

  Word! This is an amazing lesson to learn. I am a percussionist (music performance). What do you play?

  @louis2014 said:
  even if I leave 5-6 questions then I would still be better than what I am at now
  

  Nope. Not a good idea. You will likely miss the low hanging fruit with this mentality. Make it a point to "touch" all of the questions and if you get stuck MOVE ON. The LSAT writers want you to spend time on questions that are difficult. Don't fall for that. Circle, move on and come back if you have time. Otherwise you have to guess which is ok since you most likely won't get that question right anyway.
  
  

  @louis2014 said:
  I tried two methods, one is by trying to go over as many questions as possible to collect the easy ones. But what happened is that I lost accuracy
  

  Whenever you start a new method this will happen but should improve in the long run. You need to do this to catch the low hanging fruit. Try not to rush but move quickly. Read Jonathan Wang's Mavis Beacon post.

  @louis2014 said:
  but I am dumb
  

  We all are. This is good to realize so that pride doesn't make you stumble but if it becomes self-depreciating then you have a problem. I have felt like an idiot countless times but just keep at it.

  @louis2014 said:
  During BR, I make sure that I understand the stimulus completely. I think that's a wrong thing to do
  

  Why? This is the EXACT reason for BR!!!
  
  Above all, get back to the basics and really hit those grammar and argument lessons. Take your time and be thorough.
• louis2014 Alum Member

  November 2015 190 karma

  Thank you @nordeend As for the BR, so am I not the only one who spends that much time? I always thought when people BR, they spend let's say only 2-3 minutes instead of 1:20 minutes which is allocated in timed condition.
• 1 Like

  nordeend Alum Member

  November 2015 349 karma

  @louis2014 said:
  so am I not the only one who spends that much time?
  

  Not at all. Some people will be faster than others but I know I have spent tons of time especially in RC. BR is the process of learning. It takes time. When I first started BRing it was kind of painful. Then as time went on I got better.
• Sheri123 Alum Member

  November 2015 1196 karma

  louis2014 take as long as you need during the BR process, a very seasoned 7Sager on a BR call told me he has spend an hour on just one question before. So the point is to learn from it, not rush through as quickly as possible. Take your time, you will get there.
• Pacifico Alum Inactive ⭐

  November 2015 8021 karma

  Ok so I'm going to go ahead and disagree with most everything that's been said here. Your biggest problem is that your are doing BR wrong, and yet you're still getting into the 160s. That makes me think that you actually do have a decent understanding of the fundamentals, and are just horrible at applying them (this can be due to nerves, anxiety, or that there isn't a true depth or "muscle memory" to your understanding of the fundamentals). I think you would probably BR in the high 160s and maybe sometimes even in the 170s if you were doing it correctly.
  
  First off, BR takes as long as BR takes. It is for you to go through every single question you circled and piece everything together by identifying conclusions, premises, context, and the overall argument structure (when those things are present). Then you eliminate four wrong answer choices while finding the correct one. And really you need to not just be finding the right one and moving on. You need to analyze why each wrong AC is there. A very small minority are just out of left field "out of scope" type ACs. Most ACs are amazing learning opportunities because you will see how they set up traps in the stimulus to get you to focus on the flaw between the premises rather than between the premises and conclusion.
  
  You've already been through the curriculum twice and the Trainer once, so I would take a few more PTs and do a real clean copy BR for as long as it takes. If you circle 50 questions, that might take 8 hours. So what? That's where the learning process really takes shape. You need to learn where you're making mistakes and how you're making them. You have the skills you're just not applying them properly. Going back through the curriculum is not going to help you address your real weaknesses because you don't even know what they are. Really focus on using BR to teach you about the patterns in the test and it will help you improve to the point where you can identify specific weaknesses and then target those. Hit me up if you have any questions or want to talk about this more in depth. Good luck!
• nordeend Alum Member

  November 2015 349 karma

  @Pacifico said:
  That makes me think that you actually do have a decent understanding of the fundamentals
  

  Really? I recall you saying that any score below 160 indicates a lack of understanding of the fundamentals.
• DumbHollywoodActor Alum Inactive ⭐

  November 2015 7468 karma

  @Pacifico +1. I don’t think you need to go back to the curriculum just yet (although I would like to know your LG score). Chances are you know how to dissect an argument, know your logical indicators and your valid arguments, etc... Instead, let’s give you an intensive instruction with your clean copy BR: Try writing (or typing) out explanations for every question during BR. It’s incredibly slow and slightly tedious, but it will give you a written record of where your reasoning is weak. I find LSAT Hacks is a great template from which to borrow: http://lsathacks.com/explanations/.
  I’d do that for at least 3 PTs (I did it for my first 5 PTs and I’ve done it whenever my BR score was less than 170 because it showed me I wasn’t being thorough enough). Part of the difficulty of the LSAT is that it’s very easy to go through the motions. It’s impossible to do that when you’re writing out explanations. Try it a few times. Then you can re-assess if you really need to go back (again) to the curriculum.
• nordeend Alum Member

  November 2015 349 karma

  @louis2014 how many fresh PTs do you have left?
• louis2014 Alum Member

  November 2015 190 karma

  @Pacifico and @DumbHollywoodActor thank you both again and again for all you help @nordeend , I have 26 fresh ones left.
• 1 Like

  nordeend Alum Member

  November 2015 349 karma

  @louis2014 ok that is a good amount. Listen to @Pacifico and @DumbHollywoodActor above my advice. They are mentors for a reason. Good luck.
• 1 Like

  Pacifico Alum Inactive ⭐

  November 2015 8021 karma

  Yeah dude you're only wasting PTs by short changing your BR, not because you need to return to the curriculum for everything.
• 1 Like

  Pacifico Alum Inactive ⭐

  November 2015 8021 karma

  @nordeend said:
  Really? I recall you saying that any score below 160 indicates a lack of understanding of the fundamentals.
  

  That is true, but the huge gulf between his timed/BR scores signifies to me that he is not properly learning from BR and not properly learning from the PT process overall. Going back to the curriculum to do it all over again is probably not going to solve his problems since his PT skills will still be lacking. If he was in the 150s and his BR was only 5-10 points higher then I'd say he needs to address some of his fundamentals and return to the curriculum to shore up weaknesses based on his analytics. But because his timed score is ~15-20 points off of his BR score, it hints to me that he is not absorbing the lessons inherent to the PT/BR process. He has some understanding of the fundamentals to BR in the 160s, and because he has been shortchanging his BR for whatever reason, he is not seeing the timed score getting closer to that mark.
  
  I don't recall a time where I have ever told someone to go back and do the curriculum over again from the beginning, and if I have it is an extremely rare occurrence. The curriculum is to teach you what the LSAT will test you on so you can develop strategies to address those challenges. But the curriculum is not a simple input/output operation here where just watching a bunch of videos will get you a 180. You still need to learn how to PT, and you need to BR properly, and you need to understand why each of those becomes the most important part of the process. In other words, "if you were trying to learn how to ride a bike, would you go back to a book of bike riding fundamentals every time you fell? Or would you just keep trying to ride your bike?"
  
  I think you learn much better from your mistakes and doing really deep and thorough clean copy BR to unlock the patterns in the test rather than just doing the curriculum over again. The curriculum is meant to give you a foundation. You build upon that foundation by taking PTs and doing awesome BR. If your analytics tell you that a particular part of your foundation is weak, then by all means go back to the curriculum and reinforce it. But just because several parts of your foundation are weak does not mean you excavate the entire build site and start over.
• nordeend Alum Member

  November 2015 349 karma

  @Pacifico word.
• xqr1s4f3ed Alum Member

  November 2015 118 karma

  Another small but powerful "compromise" between the options mentioned above is to time individual questions, games, RC passages, or small blocks of them. It's the "aim small, miss small" approach, breaking a challenge down into its component parts and perfecting them.
  
  Slow is smooth; smooth is fast.