#### Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

# Trying out something new... thoughts?

Member
edited November 2015 66 karma
Hello All:

Quick preface:
1. I am taking the Dec. 2015 LSAT.
2. I started at 132
3. average PT score is 152/154
4. Target Score: ANYTHING over 160. Must apply this cycle for a reason in which i can't disclose (too personal), and although i wish it was, it is by no means flexible (i'll give ya a small hint... Uncle Sam isn't too happy with the delayed student visa).
5. Any tips would be greatly appreciated!

EDIT: "The online tutor that gave me this RC advice was NOT @nicole.hopkins . His name is D*****

I was on a Skype tutoring session earlier this week with a tutor i met from Reddit, his name is D****, and the tutor advised me to slow down and attempt less questions, and work on accuracy... i'm still trying to find my sweet spot.

On the RC section, instead of attempting all 4 passages, I only attempted 2 and worked on accuracy. It felt kind of weird, but based on the last 2 PT's iv'e taken and employed this strategy, It looks good so far.. only missed 2 on this PT (PT67)

On the LG section, I didn't slow down.. you either know it or you don't. i came out -4 because they were all time sinks.

On both LR sections, i attempted as many as i could, but slowed down a bit and tried to internalize every single word i read. Again, it feels a little weird not gunning for the whole section, but i did as many as i could, as fast as i could, just 20 miles-per hour slower, also making sure I was hitting at the minimum 17

Here's the breakdown:

Section 1 (RC) - 13/27 (-14). Did the first 2 passages only. got -2 on all questions attempted. the rest were guesses, and i only got 1 guess right.

Section 2 (LR1) - 11/25 (-14)- Guessed 6 (-6), -8 for questions attempted. -8 = -2 Sufficient assumption, -1weaken, -2flaw, -1 Disagree (crazy one!), -1 Main Conc. , -1 Most strongly supported.
**all questions skipped were in the end except for #17 (parallel)

Section 3 (LG) - 18/22 (-4) 2 questions were those "rule substitute" prompt (takes too long, guessed and moved on) and the other 2 were diagram errors. will fix that.

Section 4 (LR2)- 16/26 (-10) -6 were guesses and -4 were incorrect ones: -1 Main Conc., -2 Resolve, -1 Sufficient Assumption.

by the way... my BR's are still not going over 160. What is REALLY weird is that when i drill sections or drill sets, i go between -4 and -8, which is what i wish i was.

Thank you for taking the time to help a fellow 7sager out.

for all taking the Dec LSAT, I'd wish you good luck... BUT WE DON'T NEED IT! we are going to crush it!
Show Related Discussions

• #### New to 7Sage, but not new to the LSAT.Hey guys, I just wanted to let y'all know my general situation and ask for advice if you have any. I'm in between my junior and senior years of under…

• Alum Member
edited November 2015 152 karma
Have you done any of JY's curriculum? That's been huge for me. It's bumped by LR up to -5, -6 on every section. His RC lessons have been super helpful too, for retaining information, so more time reading and internalizing the MP's of each paragraph of the passage, and less time on the questions because you don't have to go back and forth as much.

How many PT's are you trying to do per week? Are you doing clean copy BR? That's also HUGE.
@MisterKaaayyy said:
What is REALLY weird is that when i drill sections or drill sets, i go between -4 and -8, which is what i wish i was.
You shouldn't be drilling sections at this point. That's not going to prepare you for the longevity of the actual LSAT, and you need to be building endurance for test day.

I agree with the tutor, slow down. When you BR, make sure you are writing down why each answer choice is wrong. Definitively. Not in your head, write down a reason why. Write all over that BR, diagram, whatever it takes so you know 100% why each is wrong and the right one is right. Also, look at your watch at Q10, Q15, Q20, and Q25. Or every 10, whichever works for you. Get a rhythm down so you know in your head a sense of 1:25 for each question. The Trainer is also good b/c it gives you guidelines for where you ~should be by each question. Obviously that differs for everyone, but it's helpful to have a structure to analyze your timing against, and to make small goals for improvement (E.g., Get to Q15 2 minutes earlier).

Are you doing POL for LR? As in, eliminating wrong answers before you look for the right answer? The LSAT Trainer really made me realize that it is so much more efficient to look for wrong answers first, because it is easier to say why something is wrong than to try and determine for each AC, "oh is this right? It looks right, okay, wait no, here is the flaw..." So you're trying to do two things for each actual AC when in reality it's easiest to just look for why it's wrong, and then come back to the ones that you didn't cross out. Does that make sense?

I applaud your tenacity; you are going to get there, just stay strong and make sure not to burn out!!!!! MAKE SURE NOT TO BURN OUT!!! (make sure not to burn out!!!)

• Member
66 karma
Hi! thanks for the tips!

- I finished 7sage premium curriculum.
- I haven't drilled in 2 weeks, i've been PTing since (currently at PT 67)
-I finished reading the LSAT Trainer, and i agree... the best thing i took from it was to look for the answer choices that are "clearly wrong" prior to looking at the answer choice that is "the best available answer".
-I BR every PT. but clean copy? first time i've heard that. what does that mean? as in i BR the same PT but a fresh copy, with no previous answers? I will try that, but holy moly... does that sound time-consuming.
-I am taking a PT every other day, and BR'ing the days im not. at some point next week, im going to most likely crank it up to a PT every day.
• Alum Member
152 karma
@MisterKaaayyy said:
-I BR every PT. but clean copy? first time i've heard that. what does that mean? as in i BR the same PT but a fresh copy, with no previous answers? I will try that, but holy moly... does that sound time-consuming.

It is time consuming. But it's worth it. Quality over quantity. You print out another complete clean copy, and circle the ones on it you circled on the original. You're not doing "more work", but you are eliminating your ego from the equation. You're not tempting yourself to say, I had it right, not even gonna really go through it again. It gives your brain the easy way out, and unfortunately most of us (me included) have brains that will do that every time, even unconsciously. This way, you forget what you even put.
@MisterKaaayyy said:
You shouldn't even be looking at/considering previous answers when you BR anyway. That's the whole point! Using previous answers either just strengthens flawed reasoning you used to begin with, or it creates a struggle between picking the same answer. Either way isn't good.

@MisterKaaayyy said:
-I am taking a PT every other day, and BR'ing the days im not. at some point next week, im going to most likely crank it up to a PT every day.
I think @nicole.hopkins can get in on this.... 6 PT'S A WEEK IS THE WORST IDEA EVER. Not trying to be mean, I promise, but I did that myself and it did NOTHING for me but burned me out, created frustration, and unmotivated me. It doesn't give your brain a rest, a chance to process anything. You shouldn't be BRing the same day you take the test. I take at least 2, maybe 3 days to BR. I promise that is a bad idea. Please do not do that, from personal experience!
• Member
edited November 2015 66 karma
@schyler.cox - thank you SO MUCH for the care and attention you're devoting. really nice of you.

@nicole.hopkins and i had a wonderful phone conversation about a week ago.. she really helped me get my stability back after freaking out.
-If i take a PT on monday, i will be BR'ing it on tuesday.

-clean copy BR: for clarification purposes ONLY, could you please explain the clean copy BR process? as simple as possible... I'd appreciate it!

I know 3-4 PT's a week is pushing it... however, would you recommend anything else? I know my mind needs to rest, but with 16 days left, its kinda hard to!

(insert inspirational/motivational/rocky 'eye of the tiger' kinda quote so mr. Tom wakes up tomorrow, cracks open 4 raw eggs, and looks at PT68 right in the eye and tells him 'this clean-copy BR sure helped')
• Alum Member
152 karma
@MisterKaaayyy said:
@schyler.cox - thank you SO MUCH for the care and attention you're devoting. really nice of you.
No problem!! I enjoy helping people not make the mistakes I did, I learned from them but maybe others can learn from them without having to waste \$1500 on a prep course that was completely useless and then burn out!!!! hahaha.

Okay so clean copy. You take the PT, circling questions you aren't 100% of the right answer or you aren't 100% sure the wrong answers are completely wrong. Okay. Yay, done, woohoo!
If you don't have PDFs, I would advise copying the PT before you start it. Then you either take the second copy, (print off another, either one) and go through and circle the same questions you circled on the original, on your Clean Copy. Put your original away. Then go through, SLOWLY, and pick apart the stimuli, and go through the answer choices, taking as much time as you need to figure it out. Do NOT look at the right answer by any means, sometimes if I'm super stumped and I've been staring at it for a while, or I'm stuck b/w 2 answers, I'll move on and come back to it and then if I still can't figure it out, I pick an answer and then ask on here or something BUT I DON'T CHANGE MY ANSWER! If you want your BR score to accurately reflect where you are without any help, it can't be influenced by that. I just look it up occasionally b/c it really bothers me when I'm not sure.
I'll redo the games too, untimed, I do all the questions, but you can just do the circled ones.
Pretty much it! It's tedious but an important process.

@MisterKaaayyy said:
I know 3-4 PT's a week is pushing it... however, would you recommend anything else? I know my mind needs to rest, but with 16 days left, its kinda hard to!
*Cue anxiety* I'm taking it in December too, and it's my second time. I didn't get to all the PT's I'd planned to, but my BR process made up for that because I'm improving faster than I'd be if I was zooming through PT's and not taking the time to learn from my mistakes. That's a waste of PT's. I'd recommend doing a sampling of PT's in the 60s and make sure to hit the 70s, that's what my tutor told me.

I'm no expert for sure but this is a conglomeration of everything I've learned from the amazing mentors on here, tutoring, and just the mistakes I've made. Good luck! We got this!!
• Member
66 karma
@schyler.cox PM'd you
• Alum Inactive ⭐
8021 karma
@schyler.cox has given you some great advice, but she is way too nice to you. But that's okay, that's why I'm here with some harsh doses of reality.
@MisterKaaayyy said:
3. average PT score is 152/154
4. Target Score: ANYTHING over 160.
This is not happening. We're not talking odds of monkeys typing Shakespeare here. But the odds are super long. And then there's this:
@MisterKaaayyy said:
my BR's are still not going over 160.
Huge red flag here. This demonstrates fundamental deficiencies across the board. You're just setting yourself up for disappointment really. You want to be consistently hitting your target score 5-10 times minimum, and if your BRs aren't even there that is trouble.
@MisterKaaayyy said:
On the RC section, instead of attempting all 4 passages, I only attempted 2 and worked on accuracy.
Absolutely horrible idea. Plus you don't know which passages will be harder than others or which questions will be easier. You need to see everything and properly gauge which battles to fight from there. RC is hard so even if you do only 2 passages you still likely won't get those 13 or 14 right and then you're stringing along 20% shots in the dark after that. If you needed to score in the 140s this is a great strategy, but for your goals this is a non-starter. You need to get all the low hanging fruit and there is some in each passage.

@MisterKaaayyy said:
On both LR sections, i attempted as many as i could, but slowed down a bit and tried to internalize every single word i read. Again, it feels a little weird not gunning for the whole section, but i did as many as i could, as fast as i could, just 20 miles-per hour slower, also making sure I was hitting at the minimum 17

Again, terrible strategy. You need to find the low hanging fruit, which can be anywhere. Half of it is usually in the first 10, but the rest is scattered all about. Why spend 35 minutes on the first 17 if the last 5 could be among the easiest in that section? You need to touch 'em all. You need to determine your score, not the test. You need to find the easy questions and get them right in under 60-80 seconds (I'm giving you extra time I don't normally give people here). Then spend extra time on your second looks for challenging questions.

Your strategy is essentially designed to get you -10 to -15 in RC or worse, and -10 to -15 in each LR or worse. That's at least -30 at best, and that's giving you a perfect LG section which sounds unrealistic at this point. -30 is sub 160 on even the hardest tests.

You need to chill out on PT quantity not only because of burnout but because you're wasting PTs with these ridiculous strategies. You really need some more time with the curriculum. So if you have money to burn and really have to go to law school next fall, then take December and do your best but don't expect any miracles. Get back in the curriculum now and fix your problem areas, of which there are many. Attack the test in a sensible and responsible manner and prep hard for February but don't go overboard. You should not take more than 3 PTs a week because you will shortchange the learning process. You really need to get on that clean copy BR and understand what it can teach you. Good luck and if you have any questions feel free to hit me up!
• Inactive Sage Inactive ⭐
7965 karma
@MisterKaaayyy said:
I was on a Skype tutoring session earlier this week, and the tutor advised me to slow down and attempt less questions, and work on accuracy... i'm still trying to find my sweet spot.
I just want to clarify ... this advice did NOT come from me. This is just horrible advice. Real improvement on RC is very possible ... Tricks and gimmicks like this make me absolutely sick to my stomach.
• Inactive Sage Inactive ⭐
edited November 2015 7965 karma
@MisterKaaayyy said:
@nicole.hopkins and i had a wonderful phone conversation about a week ago.. she really helped me get my stability back after freaking out.
I'm glad to hear this (we actually talked more like a month ago but whatever). I'm sad to hear you're only attempting 2 passages. I'm sorry someone told you that was any way to get near the score you need to get. That person is not good at math; I question the LSAT insight as well.
• Member
66 karma
@Pacifico - PM'd you!

***everyone who has seen this post: @nicole.hopkins was N-O-T the tutor that gave me that advice. it was a different tutor that i connected with via a 7Sage Reddit post. AGAIN, it was not @nicole.hopkins ... so you all need to seriously chill out. Her advice has been nothing but a catalyst for my improvement thus far. ***
• Yearly Sage
edited November 2015 6839 karma
I don't get the blanket animosity toward the RC advice. It's important to distinguish short-term score maximization advice from long-term skills improvement advice. Finding low hanging fruit is the former, and the do-2-passages-perfectly advice is definitely the latter. You cannot realistically get away with only doing 2 passages if you want a 160, and that's not in question, but that was never the goal of that tactic in the first place. Having a student slow down to that extreme is supposed to make them forget about the timing aspect and focus on developing their skills instead. It's a mental anxiety remover and pressure release, not a plug-and-play scoring strategy. You cannot improve at RC if your skills do not improve, and relying on cherry picking the easy stuff isn't going to help you improve anything.

He got 12/14 questions he attempted, and it sounds like that was just as good as, if not better than, what he was doing before (otherwise I imagine the tenor of the post would have been very different). That's the entire goal. When those skills solidify, he'll be able to do 3 passages, and then 4. You can't say that 'speed comes with competence' and simultaneously dump on a methodology whose purpose is establishing that competence.

Whether that's on the tutor for not conveying that properly or on the OP for not understanding it correctly (or a mix of both) is not for me to say. But when used properly, the tactic works extremely well. If the goal is the December LSAT, then of course OP shouldn't be doing this. But then again, if the goal is the December LSAT, no RC strategy on the planet will truly fix what ails him in time (and so he should rely on a short-term maximization strategy).
• Alum Inactive ⭐
8021 karma
But the goal is the December LSAT as he alluded to some sort of immigration issue, and even February is too close to really make those gains, which is why I stand by my comment that you're more likely to get more correct doing all the passages than only doing two. I understand the value in what you're preaching, but I don't think it applies in this case.
• Yearly Sage
edited November 2015 6839 karma
But is it actually more likely? He got 12/14 on questions he attempted (and got jobbed on his 20% - 1 out of the remaining 13, where his EV is 2.6), and again assuming by the tenor of his post, that doesn't seem like it's a decrease. His post also suggests that this is the second time it's worked for him. He already knows where the road ends when he attempts all four passages, and it's clearly not where he wants to be because otherwise he wouldn't have switched in the first place. How likely is it that he's going to do better by going back to a strategy that has already proven to be worse?

Look, I'm not saying that he's going to make huge gains in the two weeks he's got left. I agree with you that he should be doing more questions. I'm just pointing out that even if the two strategies are "only" equivalent in their outcomes, it's still at least debatably preferable to go with doing less questions because of the time/stress aspect and because doing it that way still leads to improvements, incremental as they may be, when expanding to more questions. If he improves, it won't be because he went back to doing what he did before - it'll be because he learned something from taking it slower and applied it when going faster again. If I were his tutor, I'd probably have advocated for 3 passages and not 2 due to the abbreviated timeframe, but it's clear that he isn't capable at the moment of doing all 4 and rushing things to get to all 4 has some pretty heavy costs attached.

As for why this bothers me, I suppose it's because people take your advice very seriously here, and just like the OP's tutor completely botched his advice by leaving out some critical components, so a blanket dismissal of "that's horrible advice" may well give a lot of people the wrong impression. People remember sound bites, not context. Even if in this case it is firmly understood what the situation is, these posts don't read like "this isn't the right time to apply this advice" - they read like "that advice sucks". The former is at least debatably correct; the latter is flat wrong.
• Member
66 karma
@"Jonathan Wang" - i PM'd you in regards to something specific.