... is this a bad idea?

alex.e92 · September 2016

I am postponing. I have been consistently scoring about 3-5 points under my target score and I know that I can get there by December. BUT... since I am not getting my money back... I am considering showing up for the test on sept. 24th and taking it under real conditions. I would then cancel the score, because I am not ready. I feel like it will give me a confidence boost in December to have already gone through the process once. The only con I can think of is that a cancelled score will show up on my report, will anyone in admissions care? Is this a bad idea?

Cant Get Right · September 2016

@HasaDigaLSAT said:
I am considering showing up for the test on sept. 24th and taking it under real conditions. I would then cancel the score, because I am not ready. I feel like it will give me a confidence boost in December to have already gone through the process once.

So, I don't think anyone except maybe Yale would really care about a cancelled score on your report, but the real downside is you're knowingly wasting a take and you won't get anything out of it. It won't give you a confidence boost and there is no experience to be gained. There will be more anxiety on the real thing, but the first take is as good as it gets as far as that goes, because you know you've got two more takes in case you screw it up. On your second take, you've got to be thinking only one chance left if this goes bad. Far from increasing confidence, all this does is increase stress and anxiety. Don't waste a take, there's just no benefit from the "experience" and the potential downside far outweighs it even if there were any benefit.

alex.e92 · September 2016

@"Cant Get Right" Thanks for the input. This is a good angle for me to think about it from. My cost-benefit analysis didn't really give much weight to losing a take. I guess I should add that I didn't plan on taking the next test until the average of my last 5-7 PTs is in the mid to high 170s (to pad a potential drop on test day). I'm pretty close to that, and am reasonably confident that I can get there by the December refund deadline. However, if I am not there, I would just delay an application cycle, get a refund, and sign-up for the test when I get there. I was more trying to squeeze some value out of the test for which it is too late to withdrawal with a refund from. So that wasn't something I thought would cause much anxiety, because I can't fathom needing more than one do-over and i'm generally just not a nervous test-taker. Although, maybe you're right to think that it should cause me some anxiety to lose a take. I will strongly consider walking away from the sunk cost and just postponing. Thanks.

Alex · September 2016

@HasaDigaLSAT said:
BUT... since I am not getting my money back... I am considering showing up for the test on sept. 24th and taking it under real conditions. I would then cancel the score, because I am not ready

Definitely 100% a bad idea. A take is not worth it if you're not ready. Even if you feel like your money has been wasted. You may very well need all 3 takes and you can never get them back.... A year ago I would have told you to go ahead - you have 3 more takes! Then I met a few people who needed 3 tries to score their PT average. Mind you these were folks that had been consistently scoring in the 170s for months!

And @"Cant Get Right" makes a really great point that with a cancelled score you would get nothing out of it. There is actually an argument to be made that it would hurt your confidence and shake you up more. And all at the cost of losing a take.

Postpone and don't sign up for another testing date until you are ready. I think doing so only contributes to anxiety and a host of other negative things.

Good luck with whatever you decide!

danielznelson · September 2016

Drop and wait for December. You're largely where I was in June, and I'm so glad I'm coming into September being all but fully 100% ready and without having wasted any takes.

Heart Shaped Box · September 2016

@"Cant Get Right" 's don't waste a take advice is and should be the only criteria anyone who takes their score seriously goes by, though I understand the "testing-water" proposition, it simply does not apply in this case. I've been postponing since forever, and it will still be a long journey.

Just to reiterate: Don't waste a take, at least not intentionally.

chvdanthony.m · September 2016

I completely disagree with the posts above. I think you should take it. I was in a similar position for last December's test (PT 77), and I decided to take it, in which I later canceled that score. The experience was extremely valuable to me. It opened my eyes to the facts that: (1) the LSAT is a fucking beast; and (2) the effects of test day pressure are fucking real. As a result of that experience, I learned the importance of taking tests under STRICT test-day conditions, and I completely changed my approach to the test after that, because it was a sobering experience. After that experience, I learned how to put myself in the best position possible to achieve my goal of a 175+. I will be taking the test this September, and I can guarantee you that I will achieve my goal of scoring a 175+.

Here is a picture of my scores on the last 9 practice tests that I have taken http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=1zxidj&s=9#.V9ira5MrJE4 , which have all been under strict conditions at the actual testing center where I'll be taking my test at. As you'll see, my average is approximately a 177; and that is the reason why I believe that I am qualified to comment on this topic. I believe that I am going to score a 180, and I will post evidence when I do.

This brings me to another topic that I have wanted to address for the last few weeks: @"Alex Divine", I have seen you comment on almost every single discussion that has been posted in the last few months — what makes you qualified to offer advice as you do? You post on almost every single discussion. If you are not qualified to offer advice, you should not be offering misleading advice.

Admin note: The amount of likes on this user's comment(s) are irrelevant because the user made 12 additional accounts to like his own posts. Take them with a grain of salt.

Cant Get Right · September 2016

@chvdanthony.m , that's a very impressive score and you obviously know your stuff on the LSAT.

However, I think you've misunderstood the nature of this community. I'm not sure what makes some one "qualified" to give advice, and you are the first person I've ever seen claim any kind of qualification. Mentor status does mean that @"Alex Divine" has the approval of JY along with the rest of the 7Sage administrators, and for whatever it's worth, all of the Mentors and Sages as far as I know; so I suppose if you're so concerned with qualifications that's pretty legit.

I also think you've misunderstood the nature of this community in a much more significant way. If you want to give people advice, please by all means, thank you for offering up your knowledge and experience. If your advice differs from that of the majority, all the better. We all benefit much more from a diversity of opinion than we do from a unified orthodoxy. But if you cannot participate in that conversation with civility and respect towards others, you need to just abstain from participating all together.

chvdanthony.m · September 2016

@"Cant get right", my comment was neither uncivil nor disrespectful; I simply posed a question. Please then, explain how @"Alex Divine" is qualified as a mentor. In my past LSAT experience, I have suffered from following poor advice from unqualified individuals. I do not believe that I have misunderstood the "nature of this community", as I have hoped and expected that the "nature of the community" does not promote this kind of advice.

Admin note: The amount of likes on this user's comment(s) are irrelevant because the user made 12 additional accounts to like his own posts. Take them with a grain of salt.

inactive · September 2016

I think you're misunderstanding what a Mentor is on 7Sage, @chvdanthony.m - Alex is not claiming to be an LSAT professional, nor is anyone on here who is currently studying for the LSAT. If you're a Mentor on 7Sage, it means you're very helpful and active on the 7Sage forums.

People are giving advice based on experience, Alex included. Someone posed a question asking the community, so he replied, much like yourself. You posted with your own advice, which is great. Now we have different pieces that the OP can read over and decide what to do for themselves, like @"Cant Get Right" said.

Not sure why this is getting so heated.

chvdanthony.m · September 2016

I still would like to know what makes @"alex divine", as a mentor, qualified to offer advice as he does.

My question still has not been addressed. And the responses to my question seem to be a great example of flawed reasoning.

@"Dillon A. Wright", you edited your comment after my post. So, I would like to ask a new question in order to make my own determination as to whether @"alex divine" is qualified to offer advice. @"Alex Divine", what is your average score on practice tests under "strict" conditions?

Admin note: The amount of likes on this user's comment(s) are irrelevant because the user made 12 additional accounts to like his own posts. Take them with a grain of salt. (Also I didn't edit my comment, not sure what he's on about.)

Cant Get Right · September 2016

Well I'm not really sure what qualification is necessary for participating in conversation, so I really don't know how to answer how anyone is qualified for that. As far as mentors, the selection process is that if 7Sage administrators see that someone is giving advice that they think is consistently well reasoned, constructive, and helpful, they may opt to promote that person to a mentor. I dunno, maybe there's more to it than that I'm not aware of, but I think that's kind of the main thing.

If you're not aware how your comment may have come across then I apologize if my response seemed blunt. That said, your comment came across a lot like telling someone he shouldn't be engaging in conversation because you personally disagree with him.

chvdanthony.m · September 2016

@"Cant get right", that is not what I stated in my comment. I asked a question and stated that "If you are not qualified to offer advice, you should not be offering misleading advice." I am looking out for my fellow fellow 7sagers, because I do not want them to be misled by poor advice. As you are a Mentor and BR Group leader, I would expect you to have the same concerns that I do.

Cant Get Right · September 2016

I don't know what to tell you man. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of how basic human interaction works.

Cant Get Right · September 2016

I shouldn't have said that and I apologize. I'm just really at a loss as to what your expectations are here.

chvdanthony.m · September 2016

My fellow 7sagers, that right there is a perfect example of the type of flawed reasoning known as an ad hominem attack.

Cant Get Right · September 2016

The only qualification is that 7Sage administration believes someone is active and helpful. You seem to want LSAT scores to be an additional requirement? Well that's what a Sage is: a mentor with a 170+ LSAT score. If Alex were a Sage then your line of reasoning may be more valid. Mentor status does not say anything about LSAT score though, so it is just not relevant. We're just a group of people all trying to help each other through this process. That's all this is.

chvdanthony.m · September 2016

I DO NOT WANT 7SAGERS TO BE MISLED BY POOR ADVICE. THAT IS MY ONLY EXPECTATION

Cant Get Right · September 2016

Well, I'm sorry but you don't get to define "poor advice" as "any advice that you personally disagree with."

Sprinkles · September 2016

@"Cant Get Right" said:
Well, I'm sorry but you don't get to define "poor advice" as "any advice that you personally disagree with."

For sure. There are times I disagree with my fellow mentors on advice (and I'm sure the same has been for me) but I leave it to OP to decide which route to take. Nothing to it.

chvdanthony.m · September 2016

That is not how I define, or have defined, poor advice. Thank you for providing another example of fallacious reasoning; that was an example of the logical fallacy known as the "straw man". @"cant get right", you're doing 7sage more harm than good right now. Because 7sage has been invaluable to my LSAT knowledge, I am going to put an end to this and stop commenting on here

Alex · September 2016

@"Dillon A. Wright" said:
People are giving advice based on experience, Alex included. Someone posed a question asking the community, so he replied, much like yourself. You posted with your own advice, which is great. Now we have different pieces that the OP can read over and decide what to do for themselves, like @"Cant Get Right" said.

Cant Get Right · September 2016

Sorry to OP about all this. Threads definitely go off topic sometimes, but normally in some way that's at least kind of relevant and almost never this negatively.

I also just want to restate that having a diversity of opinions is a benefit, not detriment to this forum. I disagree with @chvdanthony.m on the original issue (and everything that followed obviously, lol), but I fully acknowledge the legitimacy and value of his opinion and I sincerely hope that it will allow OP to come to a better and more thoroughly reasoned decision. That's kind of how this whole thing works. I think every one of us on here has the intelligence to decide for ourselves what advice we choose to follow or disregard. I think it is incredibly disrespectful both to the individual in question and to the intelligence of every 7Sage member to suggest to someone that "If you are not qualified to offer advice, you should not be offering misleading advice."
To every 7Sage member, you are qualified both to give advice and to choose for yourselves what advice you want to follow. Sufficient failed, problem solved. I've seen some advice on here before that I personally considered awful advice, but it never crossed my mind to question whether or not an individual should offer that advice, however misleading I may think it is. I find this notion deeply offensive. In situations where someone sees advice they disagree with, I encourage everyone to make the best counter argument you can and let OP arrive at their own conclusion. That is the best and only way that this works. There are no qualifications necessary to participate in discussions, there are no right and wrong answers (except on issues related to logic and LSAT questions, of course!), and that's really all there is to it.

BackoftheEnvelope · September 2016

@chvdanthony.m
I am looking out for my fellow fellow 7sagers, because I do not want them to be misled by poor advice.

Agreed.

yaaaaas · September 2016

Wait....this is hysterical....are you really not going to answer his/her question? What's your average score?!?!

Alex · September 2016

@"Cant Get Right" said:

To every 7Sage member, you are qualified both to give advice and to choose for yourselves what advice you want to follow. Sufficient failed, problem solved. I've seen some advice on here before that I personally considered awful advice, but it never crossed my mind to question whether or not an individual should offer that advice, however misleading I may think it is. I find this notion deeply offensive. In situations where someone sees advice they disagree with, I encourage everyone to make the best counter argument you can and let OP arrive at their own conclusion. That is the best and only way that this works. There are no qualifications necessary to participate in discussions, there are no right and wrong answers (except on issues related to logic and LSAT questions, of course!), and that's really all there is to it.

Couldn't have said it better myself

LSATisland · September 2016

Hi @HasaDigaLSAT

I would postpone without wasting a take and having it on record. For replicating the actual test experience, you could take an administered test that is offered by schools and other organizations. Much of the anxiety of the actual test is from it being the actual test, which won't obtain if you plan on cancelling. Good luck!

Ron Swanson · September 2016

What a sad thread.

Personal opinion on the subject: I took the Oct 2015 test before I was ready and cancelled the score. The whole experience sucked from start to finish and I regret it. That's not to say it didn't help me gain perspective on how to move forward and rebound for June 2016. @HasaDigaLSAT , if you're 3-5 points under your target and want to take the test, do it. I'd just recommend not going into the exam with the "I'm going to cancel" mindset. Who knows, the test may play to your strengths and you may get a score that you're at least somewhat happy with. Having a "security blanket" score may even boost your confidence heading into take 2, seeing as schools only take your top score anyway. IMO cancelling just gives you nothing to show for it besides "experience", which varies from person to person.

To address @chvdanthony.m's comments though, while I understand/agree with your concern for the advice given out, I think it's pretty disrespectful to publicly demand that anyone release their PT sores in some sort of pissing contest. Alex has earned mentor status by going out of his way to be helpful to others on the forums. That is what that title means. I'd recommend you take a look at the thread that lists out 7Sage titles.

By asking for advice on a forum, you're asking for opinions, and that's what Alex is offering. If you don't like his advice, don't take it.

Sprinkles · September 2016

Hey @"Alex Divine" I think you offered some solid advice per usual

I can't imagine the feeling someone may have that ends up needing their third take only to look back and say, "I blew it on a trial run!"

alex.e92 · September 2016

Well this escalated quickly. A few thoughts:

1. I appreciate everyone's willingness to share their POV. The whole reason I posted was to expose flaws in this plan, hence the thread title.

2. I expect people to advocate hard for their positions on these threads, i'd be concerned with their life choices if they didn't. I think we are all capable of sifting through advice and weighting it as we see fit - I literally just noticed that people have these "mentor" titles.. so i guess thanks for showing me a part of 7sage I didn't know existed.

3. That being said, my internal BS detector goes off whenever anyone uses absolute language like "anyone who takes their score seriously will do X". There are pros and cons to this plan regardless of whether or not you think the distribution is 99% to 1% in either direction. This idea was actually pitched to me by my spouse and his friends who are 3Ls at a t10 currently. I am operating under the assumption that they took these scores very seriously. My only concern was that they are too far removed from the LSAT to care about "wasting" a take. Point being - there are valid and conflicting opinions from all angles and that's fine.

4. If I wanted to see people tear each other down, whip out their PT scores and measure them, and predict the future based on their "qualifications" I'd go to TLS

I appreciate that everyone here (most of the time) offers their opinion with the mutual understanding that we're all inexperienced and aiming to achieve similar goals.

5. At some point in this crazy thread I think that someone mentioned practice proctored exams given at universities? Anyone have more info on this?

Sprinkles · September 2016

@HasaDigaLSAT said:
If I wanted to see people tear each other down, whip out their PT scores and measure them, and predict the future based on their "qualifications" I'd go to TLS

Mhm.

@HasaDigaLSAT said:
At some point in this crazy thread I think that someone mentioned practice proctored exams given at universities? Anyone have more info on this?

This is the best (and cheapest) approach to take your LSAT under very similar conditions as you would on game day. I recommend wearing clothing, eating snack, and taking breaks the same way you would as if it was the actual LSAT. This way you will have a sense of feeling comfortable on game day because the environment won't be foreign to you.The only con of this is that you will most likely be the only one in the room so the noise aspect will fluctuate. Thankfully there's a background noise option on the 7sage proctor app so feel free to use that. Anyway this approach has been psychologically approved and it has worked for many people

Nanchito-1-1 · September 2016

@HasaDigaLSAT
http://www.princetonreview.com/law/free-lsat-practice-test#!practice
https://www.manhattanprep.com/lsat/classes/free/
https://7sage.com/discussion/#/discussion/2373/free-proctored-lsats
https://www.kaptest.com/lsat/enroll?tab=events
Just found one by me actually at Marist College, cool.

Cant Get Right · September 2016

I think there are even some universities that offer this as a service. It would all be super legit. I don't think it's anything that is offered anywhere near me, so I haven't looked too much into it, but it is something I've heard of. Check around at your nearby universities and see what's available. Many schools have a place on their website for testing administration services, so that would probably be the best place to start.

BruiserWoods · September 2016

@chvdanthony.m need to calm all the way down. If you want people showing their credentials before taking their advice, you're welcome to hire one of the many tutors available here or elsewhere.

Lots of us have been studying for this test for months, even years, and we've been around the LSAT block.

But I'd like to take an opportunity for a logic lesson, if I may:

Someone's great LSAT score (on a PT or on the big day) is not a sufficient condition for their being competent to give out advice on the LSAT (maybe they're a unicorn; maybe they're a good guesser; maybe they got a test that was perfect for their strengths).

Similarly, someone NOT having yet earned a great LSAT score is not a sufficient condition for their NOT giving great advice.

Good talk! *goes back to LG drills*

chvdanthony.m · September 2016

cool caption

inactive · September 2016

@chvdanthony.m

Edit: Why did you create 12 more accounts last night?

Sprinkles · September 2016

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL @"Dillon A. Wright" is the Nev of 7sage! #Catfished

inactive · September 2016

Found out who was liking all of his posts so he could get more credibility... It was himself. Wow.

Sprinkles · September 2016

@"Dillon A. Wright" said:
Why did you create 12 more accounts last night?

I called it!

Alex · September 2016

@montaha.rizeq said:
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL @"Dillon A. Wright" is the Nev of 7sage! #Catfished

Sprinkles · September 2016

Guys seriously,cut it out... GIFs aren't supposed to be this funny @"Alex Divine" @"Dillon A. Wright"

Cant Get Right · September 2016

Wow, I can't even handle these GIFs!

inactive · September 2016

Let's get this thread back on topic now. I'm going to quote a few things that may have been lost after all of the hullabaloo that went on above.

1.

@nanchito said:
@HasaDigaLSAT
http://www.princetonreview.com/law/free-lsat-practice-test#!practice
https://www.manhattanprep.com/lsat/classes/free/
https://7sage.com/discussion/#/discussion/2373/free-proctored-lsats
https://www.kaptest.com/lsat/enroll?tab=events
Just found one by me actually at Marist College, cool.

2.

@"Cant Get Right" said:
I think there are even some universities that offer this as a service. It would all be super legit. I don't think it's anything that is offered anywhere near me, so I haven't looked too much into it, but it is something I've heard of. Check around at your nearby universities and see what's available. Many schools have a place on their website for testing administration services, so that would probably be the best place to start.

3.

@montaha.rizeq said:
@HasaDigaLSAT said:
If I wanted to see people tear each other down, whip out their PT scores and measure them, and predict the future based on their "qualifications" I'd go to TLS

Mhm.

@HasaDigaLSAT said:
At some point in this crazy thread I think that someone mentioned practice proctored exams given at universities? Anyone have more info on this?

> This is the best (and cheapest) approach to take your LSAT under very similar conditions as you would on game day. I recommend wearing clothing, eating snack, and taking breaks the same way you would as if it was the actual LSAT. This way you will have a sense of feeling comfortable on game day because the environment won't be foreign to you.The only con of this is that you will most likely be the only one in the room so the noise aspect will fluctuate. Thankfully there's a background noise option on the 7sage proctor app so feel free to use that. Anyway this approach has been psychologically approved and it has worked for many people

ChiTownGuy · September 2016

This was the funniest thing I've ever read @"Dillon A. Wright" just expoooooosed this man

frankl10 · September 2016

Sorry to be off topic, but this made my day for some reason. Thanks for the good advice and the laughs!

danielznelson · September 2016

@HasaDigaLSAT Yes, at least some universities offer this. I took a practice, proctored exam through a Kaplan-sponsored event on campus. Not only did it give me the opportunity to take in a real setting, it turned me off from Kaplan.

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