Are fourth and third tier law schools worth it?

texvd1988 · December 2016

Hello all,

I am sure you have seen this question pop up hundreds or thousands of times, but I like to get as diverse an opinion as possible.

situation:

I currently reside in San Antonio, Texas and will be applying for the following term. I have contacted St. Mary's law school, which is the only law school in San Antonio, and I am essentially a guarantee given my GPA and LSAT score from three years ago.

Plan for the future: My wife and I plan on staying in San Antonio completely. She has her own primary care clinic that she will run once she is out of residency so our chances of movement are minimal. There are plenty of law opportunities here, and even a few big law.

I understand that it is basically impossible to get into big law from a school like St. Mary's unless you are the top 2 or 3 percent of your class, but I am not sold on big law anyway. For me, I could be looking at a life of civil rights/ immigration law once I am done.

Given all of this, is a school that is in the fourth tier something I should be weary about?

I am going to spend all of my couple of years out of law school paying back debt, and will be fortunate enough to have some back up with my wife for any other expenses so the salary doesn't have to be hundreds of thousands of dollars out of law school.

What I do want is an automatic opportunity to work and build up my work flow.

I have done research about some of the firms in the area and St. Mary's seems to have a pretty good stranglehold on the region.

Have you guys seen something similar? Fourth tiers often holding par in the region they are in but falling flat the moment you get out of the region unless you are top of the class?

Thank you for any of your input. I am currently sending out applications, and any input is great input.

dcdcdcdcdc · December 2016

I think an important consideration would be scholarship money/tuition waivers. If you could attend the law school for a significantly reduced rate and you accept the opportunity cost of several years in school vs. earning income, this could make sense.

The idea would be to reduce or eliminate any debt resulting from law school so that the reduced income of legal jobs in the region (as compared to BigLaw) would not be a serious problem.

Basic point is that little to no debt upon graduation should theoretically give you more freedom of choice in your career, assuming good academic performance, recommendations, etc.

jennilynn89 · December 2016

I 100% agree with @dcdcdcdcdc

I have a couple of friends who graduated from T3 and T4 school's. They got more scholly money at those school's (compared to the higher ranked schools they applied to) and did really well and got the job's they wanted. I do want to add that neither of them was interested in Big Law, and they focused on the clinics of the school's they applied to and made sure that they are regionally well known schools that would allow them to network a great deal.

desire2learn · December 2016

I would also make sure St. Mary's had reasonable bar pass rates. If their statistics are horrible it might not be worth it. But overall I agree with everyone else. Since you know you want to stay in the region the need for outside opportunities doesn't weigh as heavily when considering all factors.

lawschoolstuff16 · December 2016

be very careful and do more research than a phone call to st. mary's. try to speak to alumni or current students at the school who can give you more information. If you're able to, negotiate a scholarship by applying to a higher ranking/rival school, and using it as a way to negotiate at St. Mary's. That way, at the very least, if 4th tier doesn't pan out to be what you hope it will, at least you would have done what you could to minimize debt.

Alex · December 2016

It can be hard to generalize about all tier 3 and 4 schools without taking into account one's personal circumstances, but generally speaking, the only time I think they are worth it is if they are completely free AND you have legal employment lined up post-grad. And even then I still think one should think twice, thrice....
For instance, if your family owned a local law firm and you just need a JD to work there. Then a T3/T4 law school might be something to consider.

There are also varying degrees of T3/T4 schools and some are unquestionably better than others. Rankings seem to matter a whole lot less and location a whole lot more. For example, attending CUNY or NYLS in NYC is objectively a bad idea. There are many law schools in NY, and NYC is the legal capital of the world and attracts lawyers from all over the globe.

Then there are podunk law schools in Oregon that feed grads into the local legal market where they probably care more about ties to the area, resume, and things besides your school's rank.

However, after reading what you wrote under no circumstances should you attend St. Mary's Law School if you want to be an attorney.

https://www.lstreports.com/schools/stmarys/

47% of grads in 2015 found legal employment. You'd literally have less than a coin flip's chance of becoming an attorney from this school. So although there might be legal jobs, apparently most grads of this school are not finding them. 1.9% found big law jobs.

It is $200,000 tuition (36% pay full price) for a next to nothing chance at even becoming an attorney. Schools like these are part of what's been deemed "the law school scam."

It seems like you're a prudent fellow and place high value on making sure you can readily find employment after you graduate. So to answer your question, yes, you should be extremely weary about this school and all T3/T4s across the board. Law school has changed so much over the past 30 years and now there's a pretty good argument to make that the wholesale rejection of T3/T4 schools is the default move. You say you plan to pay back the debt within your first few years out, but it looks like the average salary of the 47% who find jobs is under $40k.

Here's the ranking by employment/bar passage of all the law schools in Texas

http://law-schools.startclass.com/d/d/Texas

I'm actually unfamiliar with where San Antonio is in relation to all the law schools listed in the link above, but maybe commuting would be an option?

In any case, make getting a high LSAT score your top priority so no matter what path you choose, you can mitigate debt.

Good luck!

lawschoolstuff16 · December 2016

@"Alex Divine" said:
generally speaking, the only time I think they are worth it is if they are completely free AND you have legal employment lined up post-grad. And even then I still think one should think twice....

@"Alex Divine" nailed it on the head.

texvd1988 · December 2016

Wow. Thank you all for the incredible comments.

I am definitely iffy on this situation myself.

What Alex said has definitely been on my mind, and the added info about employment rate is really shocking but gives me clarity.

From what I understand, these schools are only worth it if you get a free ride or place as high as you possibly can in your class (top 5 percent). I assume that's where the 47 percent employment rate comes from. Either already established legal jobs through inheritance or top of class.

I know of one student who had issues finding employment, but she was Middle of the class there. She has found employment in a field she didn't want to be in, but she is a lawyer so that's something.

This will be a tough process. Without a doubt.

Again, I really appreciate your input.

Alex · December 2016

@vduran1988 said:
This will be a tough process. Without a doubt.

Again, I really appreciate your input.

It's a tough process, but if you want to be an attorney, I promise it will be worth it!

Walliums · December 2016

Hey, to tack onto this conversation, curious if you have considered applying to UT? It's just an hour up the road in Austin (not sure where in San Antonio y'all live). This will possibly be my situation, as there is a good chance my spouse will end up at a San Antonio residency (military).

texvd1988 · December 2016

@Walliums said:
Hey, to tack onto this conversation, curious if you have considered applying to UT? It's just an hour up the road in Austin (not sure where in San Antonio y'all live). This will possibly be my situation, as there is a good chance my spouse will end up at a San Antonio residency (military).

Hey Walliums,

Yes. It is my dream school in Texas. I will be applying there, but need to hit a 168 on the LSAT to be competitive. I am still a little bit away from that and am getting a bit concerned that I may not hit.

At the moment, I am applying everywhere except Texas Southern.

Most likely, though, I will say in the San Antonio, Waco, or Austin region.

I really want to stay in San Antonio since my wife is almost assured a residency spot here next year, and we have been long distance for a while. We would like to settle down finally.

So, yes, Austin is definitely my hopeful wish. The only negative is the hour to hour and 15 minute drive I would be doing daily if I got in. That's a huge drag, but the education and placement in Texas is unparalleled. I hope you get in if you guys end up here. Austin is an incredible place. Also, it feels completely out of place in the Texas environment. At times, I feel like I am in Seattle.

My greatest battle right now is whether I will get close to or an entire full ride to St.Mary's or whether I could get away with being top of the class. I don't exactly have top of the class history, and going to St. Mary's would basically necessitate a top of the class finish if I wanted a job out of law school (when I say top I mean top 5% and that's not easy).

Anyway, best of luck to you and yours. If you end up going to UT, message me on here. It would be nice to hear.

texvd1988 · December 2016

By the way, Baylor is almost impossible to place on the acceptance spectrum. I checked their range for the LSAC site, but because they accept classes in the Spring, Summer, and Fall I am not sure if their standards are equivalent.

For instance, their summer and spring median for LSAT was 154/155 and GPA was 3.4/5. That's insanely low for a top 60 program.

That also means that a person with a 3.2/ 155 split has a chance to get in if they are willing to start in Spring or Summer.

If I get into St. Mary's but not into Austin, I may look into Baylor law for the following spring and apply after the June LSAT.

TheLoftGuy · December 2016

@"Alex Divine" said:
https://www.lstreports.com/schools/stmarys/

47% of grads in 2015 found legal employment. You'd literally have less than a coin flip's chance of becoming an attorney from this school. So although there might be legal jobs, apparently most grads of this school are not finding them. 1.9% found big law jobs.

Thanks for posting this. Now I can go check the stats of my schools of choice. Because I am already established in my field and dont play to work in Big Law I have been told that the school doesn't matter. I retook the December exam because I want the most free money. So my plan has been to attend the school that give me the most $. Your comments help me to see it I am slightly on the right track

Walliums · December 2016

@vduran1988 said:
Hey Walliums,

Yes. It is my dream school in Texas. I will be applying there, but need to hit a 168 on the LSAT to be competitive. I am still a little bit away from that and am getting a bit concerned that I may not hit.

At the moment, I am applying everywhere except Texas Southern.

Most likely, though, I will say in the San Antonio, Waco, or Austin region.

I really want to stay in San Antonio since my wife is almost assured a residency spot here next year, and we have been long distance for a while. We would like to settle down finally.

So, yes, Austin is definitely my hopeful wish. The only negative is the hour to hour and 15 minute drive I would be doing daily if I got in. That's a huge drag, but the education and placement in Texas is unparalleled. I hope you get in if you guys end up here. Austin is an incredible place. Also, it feels completely out of place in the Texas environment. At times, I feel like I am in Seattle.

My greatest battle right now is whether I will get close to or an entire full ride to St.Mary's or whether I could get away with being top of the class. I don't exactly have top of the class history, and going to St. Mary's would basically necessitate a top of the class finish if I wanted a job out of law school (when I say top I mean top 5% and that's not easy).

Anyway, best of luck to you and yours. If you end up going to UT, message me on here. It would be nice to hear.

I see! Well I am wishing you the best as well and hoping you get the LSAT you need for UT. I am about a year or so behind you it sounds like, my spouse is an MS3 (and is looking to do internal but we'll see...) so I'm looking to attend Fall 2018. Please keep in touch with where you go and I will do the same! Maybe if we both end up doing the UT thing we can carpool!

The other thing I would say is be cautious on the scholarships with St. Mary's - I hear that some of them are contingent upon achieving certain GPAs in 1L and 2L. There's a site where you can look into that stuff, just need to find it again...

texvd1988 · December 2016

@Walliums said:
I see! Well I am wishing you the best as well and hoping you get the LSAT you need for UT. I am about a year or so behind you it sounds like, my spouse is an MS3 (and is looking to do internal but we'll see...) so I'm looking to attend Fall 2018. Please keep in touch with where you go and I will do the same! Maybe if we both end up doing the UT thing we can carpool!

The other thing I would say is be cautious on the scholarships with St. Mary's - I hear that some of them are contingent upon achieving certain GPAs in 1L and 2L. There's a site where you can look into that stuff, just need to find it again...

Thank you! I am definitely in on the car pooling if we get lucky enough

. By the way, thank your spouse for his/her service for me.

You're spot on the St. Mary's scholarships by the way. I have read through some of theirs online and most of them are completely reliant on your GPA through law school. This is not as big a throw off for me, since I will be working my butt off if I go there to ensure I have a job going out of law school.

Right now, if things don't work out with UT or Baylor, I am basically either going to go to St. Mary's with a scholarship/ fight for my life to be as high in the class as possible so I could get work, or apply for a better position and get ready for the 2018 cycle.

I am not sure. Either way, I am taking the February LSAT so I will know whether I have a shot fairly quick.

Alex · December 2016

@TheLoftGuy said:
Thanks for posting this. Now I can go check the stats of my schools of choice. Because I am already established in my field and dont play to work in Big Law I have been told that the school doesn't matter.

Happy to help! However, I think a common misconception is thinking that because you aren't interested in big law that school choice matters less. To some extent that is true, but, for the most part, school choice still matters a lot. I think going to any school where employment is 50% is an objectively bad idea regardless of scholarship money.

Another thing I have been told is that if you have trouble getting a high LSAT score you should be weary of the hubris needed to think you'll just work hard and be in the top X% of your class. Every student thinks they'll be in the top 10% and clearly that's mathematically impossible.

All this to say: Prep hard and take as long as you need with the LSAT. It literally pays dividends!

texvd1988 · December 2016

@"Alex Divine" said:
Another thing I have been told is that if you have trouble getting a high LSAT score you should be weary of the hubris needed to think you'll just work hard and be in the top X% of your class. Every student thinks they'll be in the top 10% and clearly that's mathematically impossible.

This.

This this this.

It is something I tell myself daily when looking at the downsides of going to St. Mary's.

rachel · December 2016

FWIW my ex graduated from St Mary's several years ago and got a job with his dad's firm afterward. I gathered that he would not have secured a job coming from there otherwise, as his grades were not stellar.

Also, just this summer, a senior partner at Haynes & Boone (a close friend) told me that they will hire someone from St. Mary's, because they understand the reasons for attending that school (other jobs, spousal commitments, etc.), but only the top 1 or 2 people in the class are made an offer. And those have stellar credentials on top of their grades.

Good luck!

texvd1988 · December 2016

@rachel said:
FWIW my ex graduated from St Mary's several years ago and got a job with his dad's firm afterward. I gathered that he would not have secured a job coming from there otherwise, as his grades were not stellar.

Also, just this summer, a senior partner at Haynes & Boone (a close friend) told me that they will hire someone from St. Mary's, because they understand the reasons for attending that school (other jobs, spousal commitments, etc.), but only the top 1 or 2 people in the class are made an offer. And those have stellar credentials on top of their grades.

Thank you! Basically, either have a connection or be top of the class to work in big law, or be near the top of the class to guarantee a job out of law school.

I am definitely on the fence. I will apply and if I don't get into UT, I may have some serious soul searching to do.

texvd1988 · December 2016

Some decently uplifting stuff here:

http://www.haynesboone.com/people?offices=San-Antonio

Half of the associates there are from St. Mary's. And one partner.

TheLoftGuy · December 2016

@"Alex Divine" said:
Happy to help! However, I think a common misconception is thinking that because you aren't interested in big law that school choice matters less. To some extent that is true, but, for the most part, school choice still matters a lot. I think going to any school where employment is 50% is an objectively bad idea regardless of scholarship money.

Another thing I have been told is that if you have trouble getting a high LSAT score you should be weary of the hubris needed to think you'll just work hard and be in the top X% of your class. Every student thinks they'll be in the top 10% and clearly that's mathematically impossible.

All this to say: Prep hard and take as long as you need with the LSAT. It literally pays dividends!

I am working on a timeline. This degree has to be completed by 2020. It is not an option for me to retake the LSAT again. I will be going with whoever accepts me and give me the most $ with the December score. More concerned with the bar pass rate than the employment rating as I am already established and won't be seeking employment. The purpose of the JD is to help within my own businesses.

texvd1988 · December 2016

@TheLoftGuy said:
The purpose of the JD is to help within my own businesses.

You are a lucky man. Best of luck, and I hope this JD delivers what you need!

Grace... · December 2016

@"Alex Divine" said:
For example, attending CUNY or NYLS in NYC is objectively a bad idea.

Alex, why would you say CUNY or NYLS would be a bad idea? Is it just that they are not as good as other schools or other reasons?

Alex · December 2016

@vduran1988 said:
@TheLoftGuy said:
The purpose of the JD is to help within my own businesses.

You are a lucky man. Best of luck, and I hope this JD delivers what you need!

Good stuff! Sounds like a pragmatic plan.

Good luck, LoftGuy!

cgracia12 · December 2016

Have you considered other schools besides Austin/Waco area? Tough schools, UH and South Texas have generally lower medians, and A&M's law school is on the rise. @vduran1988

cgracia12 · December 2016

South Texas is not as highly ranked, and may be in the same ballpark as St. Mary's, but at the least it's located in a huge Houston legal market @vduran1988 , I'm also from Texas (Laredo, currently in College Station) and I'm eyeing UH, A&M and Tech. South Texas and St. Mary's are definitely last resort, for me at least. All other schools are long shots for me haha

texvd1988 · December 2016

@cgracia12 said:
Have you considered other schools besides Austin/Waco area? Tough schools, UH and South Texas have generally lower medians, and A&M's law school is on the rise. @vduran1988

Hey @cgracia12! Glad to hear from a fellow Texan. I have considered all of those. I know they are easier than UT, but it seems like I may not have a choice. I was very flexible coming into the year since my wife was in the interview process of her applications into residency programs. Since residency is so unpredictable, I was going to apply all over Texas' major cities to ensure I had one school for each possible residency.

Unfortunately for me, but fortunately for my wife, she is basically assured a spot in San Antonio (her hometown and where we plan on living). We are really averse to long distance since we spent so much time being long distance in the beginning of our relationship. Plus, we have puppies and hope to have kids in a couple of years. Long distance would obviously place a strain on things.

So, I am kind of stuck. I am still applying all over Texas, but I am stuck on St. Mary's and UT at the moment. It's tough. I would gladly go to an SMU, Baylor, or U of H with an easier route in order to increase my job prospects, but at the cost of unnecessary familial hardships I am not so sure.

Baylor seems like my best option for long distance. It is a two hour and fifteen minute drive and that's not a bad drive to make on the weekends. Plus, if I don't make the fall session, their standards for spring and summer acceptance are ridiculously low (154/ 3.4 are the medians).

texvd1988 · December 2016

Half kidding about the puppies. I love my pupper, and we are getting him a nice German Shepherd pupper next summer as a companion (to keep him happy while I am studying and my wife is in residency).

Alex · December 2016

@Grace... said:
Alex, why would you say CUNY or NYLS would be a bad idea? Is it just that they are not as good as other schools or other reasons?

I usually don't make value judgement with respect to law schools, but for CUNY and NYLS, I tend to make exceptions.

NYLS and CUNY law school are just bad in every metric that is important.

NYLS is one of the most expensive law schools in the United States and has some of the lowest employment stats, bar passage rates, and under-employment scores. They report that around 48% of grads find employment 9 months out, but have been embroiled in numerous law suits for misrepresenting those stats. In court proceedings, they basically admitted that although they fudged the employment numbers, prospective students were actually at fault because any reasonable person should have known they couldn't be true. Something to that effect.
Lastly, NYLS is in NYC which is the legal capital of the world. Law grads from all over the country and world all compete for jobs in NY, both in the public and private sector.

CUNY is actually not as bad in theory, but in practice it tends to suffer from most of the same problems at NYLS. the good thing about CUNY is that if you’re a NY resident, tuition is fairly low. Housing on the other hand is not… But it too suffers from low employment, low bar passage, and more importantly the stigma. One of my managers at work is an ex-lawyer and he basically said that law firms in NYC don’t harbor very positive feelings about CUNY/NYLS grads because they graduate woefully unprepared to practice. And although CUNY markets itself as a public interest law school, PI positions are actually very competitive. And you’ll be competing not only with HYS, but also NYU, Columbia, Cornell, Fordham and the other 5-6 NYC based law schools. All of which basically rank higher.

Just google what some grads have to say about these schools. Most will warn you to stay away.

I think a problem with lower tiered schools is that negative stigma. It’s widely known that because they accept students with such low GPAs/LSAT scores that they essentially have to spend 3 years prepping them to pass the bar exam, lest the lose their ABA accreditation. Taking a glorified 3-year bar course causes grads to enter the legal work force unprepared.

Of course, there’s always exceptions! So don’t take what I say as gospel and do some research.

https://www.lstreports.com/schools/newyork/

https://www.lstreports.com/schools/cuny-queens/

cgracia12 · December 2016

Ah I see, @vduran1988 . Well in that case, best of luck with your applications. I think St. Mary's shouldn't be so bad if you get in with good money and are in good standing. I have a friend who was accepted there on a huge scholarship, and over the summer he clerked and interned in some pretty good firms in SA and Houston. I haven't asked him what he ranks in the class or anything like that, but it seems like its going well for him, he's been working hard and I'm sure he'll be ok when he graduates given what he's done during school.

theLSATdreamer · August 2018

@Alex damn, i almost decided to go to CUNY, eye opener

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