neither nor

Comments

• hihihi9993 Member

  June 2017 edited June 2017 347 karma

  Also what if "Jane will select neither the blue nor the black dress: Jane will not select Blue dress AND Black dress"??

  Can you sum them up as J→/Blue + /Black?
  or do you have to separate them as J→/Blue AND J→/Black?

  @..@!!

  So confusing.

  Thank you in advance!!!
• TheLSAT Member

  June 2017 edited June 2017 301 karma

  The entities should remain separate for the following reason: P+K ----> /C indicates that they are not cute when combined. But the original statement said that neither P nor K are cute, which means each entity on its own is not cute. In your example, the sentence became as the following: if P and K, then not cute. I hope this makes sense.
  Same reasoning applies to your second scenario.
• Freddy_D Core Member ⭐

  June 2017 2983 karma

  I would translate the original like this:

  P or K -----> C

  then utilizing DeMorgan's Law for the contrapositive

  C ------> P and K

  the "neither nor" is essentially an "either or" statement with a negation applied to it
• hihihi9993 Member

  June 2017 edited June 2017 347 karma

  @TheLSAT said:
  The entities should remain separate for the following reason: P+K ----> /C indicates that they are not cute when combined. But the original statement said that neither P nor K are cute, which means each entity on its own is not cute. In your example, the sentence became as the following: if P and K, then not cute. I hope this makes sense.
  Same reasoning applies to your second scenario.

  @TheLSAT
  I got the part that "and" cannot be established because "each entity on its own is not cute". Then what about "inclusive or"?

  @Freddy_D said:
  I would translate the original like this:

  P or K -----> C

  then utilizing DeMorgan's Law for the contrapositive

  C ------> P and K

  the "neither nor" is essentially an "either or" statement with a negation applied to it

  @Freddy_D
  I have a sense that "'neither nor' is essentially an 'either or' statement with a negation applied to it", but I keep getting P/K → /C (Contrapositive: C → /P and /K) when I try drawing out the process.

  I will try to show my thoughts as clearly as possible!!! Plz help!!

  According to the video lecture, "neither" means "not one and not the other". So if we have "Neither P nor K are C", then it would be "P are not C AND K are not C".

  P→/C AND K→/C:
  When []? Then []
  P? /C
  K? /C
  P, K? /C
  P, /K? /C
  /P, K? /C
  /P, /K? Unknown
  C? /P and /K

  Then I tried to condense P→/C AND K→/C to something simpler by using "And" and "Or".

  P+K→/C (using and)
  P? Unknown
  K? Unknown
  THEREFORE, =/= to the original statement

  P/K→/C (using inclusive or)
  P? /C
  K? /C
  P, K? /C
  P, /K? /C
  /P, K? /C
  /P, /K? Unknown
  C? /P and /K
  THEREFORE, = to the original statement

  Thank you both @TheLSAT and @Freddy_D !!!
• 2 Likes

  akistotle Member ⭐ 🍌🍌

  June 2017 9382 karma

  @d931n027h said:
  If, "neither P nor K are cute", then can you say P+K→/C or do you have to keep them separate??

  This would be separate because it means that "P are not cute" and "K are not cure" separately.
  P → not cute
  K → not cute

  P
  or → /C
  K

  P↘︎
  　　/C
  K↗︎

  https://7sage.com/lesson/neither-nor/

  @Freddy_D said:
  I would translate the original like this:

  P or K -----> C

  This translation would be "If it is not P or not K, then it is cute" ("Non-P or Non-K are cute").
• 3 Likes

  Freddy_D Core Member ⭐

  June 2017 2983 karma

  Lol I just realized that after the fact. Thanks, @akistotle
• 1 Like

  akistotle Member ⭐ 🍌🍌

  June 2017 9382 karma

  @d931n027h said:
  Also what if "Jane will select neither the blue nor the black dress: Jane will not select Blue dress AND Black dress"??

  Can you sum them up as J→/Blue + /Black?
  or do you have to separate them as J→/Blue AND J→/Black?

  This basically means that "Jane won't select the blue dress" and "Jane won't select the black dress."

  Jane select→/Blue dress
  Jane select→/Black dress

  =
  　　　　　　/Blue dress
  　　　　↗︎
  Jane select
  　　　　↘︎
  　　　　　/Black dress

  ---

  Blue dress→/(Jane select)
  Black dress→/(Jane select)

  =

  Blue dress
  　　　　↘︎
  　　　　　/(Jane select)
  　　　　↗︎
  Black dress
• 1 Like

  akistotle Member ⭐ 🍌🍌

  June 2017 9382 karma

  @Freddy_D said:
  Lol I just realized that after the fact. Thanks, @akistotle

  No problem

  @d931n027h said:
  I have a sense that "'neither nor' is essentially an 'either or' statement with a negation applied to it", but I keep getting P/K → /C (Contrapositive: C → /P and /K) when I try drawing out the process.

  Yes, you are right.

  P
  or → /C
  K

  It really is simple: Neither nor = Not one and not the other.
  https://7sage.com/lesson/neither-nor/
• 1 Like

  TheLSAT Member

  June 2017 301 karma

  @d931n027h Can you elaborate on your question because your original statement did not have an inclusive or. Neither P nor K are cute translates as the following in English: P is not cute And K is not cute. Maybe I'm missing something, so tell me more.
• 1 Like

  TheLSAT Member

  June 2017 301 karma

  If I was to encounter such a statement on a test, I would just keep them separate without the "or". That's just my personal preference though. So I'd just write the following:
  P ----> /C
  K ---> /C.
  However, If P or K, then /C would also do the trick. So it's up to you to choose how to diagram them. Just make sure you do not put an "AND" in the sufficient condition.
• hihihi9993 Member

  June 2017 347 karma

  Thank you @Freddy_D @akistotle @TheLSAT

  @TheLSAT said:
  @d931n027h Can you elaborate on your question because your original statement did not have an inclusive or. Neither P nor K are cute translates as the following in English: P is not cute And K is not cute. Maybe I'm missing something, so tell me more.

  I didn't explicitly say "inclusive or" in my original statement because I didn't know it could act as same as "neither nor"! I agree with you that I shouldn't put "and" as a replacement. However, it's okay to put "and or = inclusive or" in a replacement for "neither nor" because they are essentially same thing if you see my diagram!

  @d931n027h said:
  According to the video lecture, "neither" means "not one and not the other". So if we have "Neither P nor K are C", then it would be "P are not C AND K are not C".

  P→/C AND K→/C:
  When []? Then []
  P? /C
  K? /C
  P, K? /C
  P, /K? /C
  /P, K? /C
  /P, /K? Unknown
  C? /P and /K

  Then I tried to condense P→/C AND K→/C to something simpler by using "And" and "Or".

  P+K→/C (using and)
  P? Unknown
  K? Unknown
  THEREFORE, =/= to the original statement

  P/K→/C (using inclusive or)
  P? /C
  K? /C
  P, K? /C
  P, /K? /C
  /P, K? /C
  /P, /K? Unknown
  C? /P and /K
  THEREFORE, = to the original statement