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Do you guys take TLS "dont even bother applying to law school" scare posts seriously?
I just read a post that says if you are choosing between going to Loyola and UC Hastings, you just shouldnt go to law school at all, because you won't get a job.
I've worked at two mid-size law firms. One of which worked on celebrity cases and filed suits against major corporation, another works with almost every big hospital in California and many out of state and even out of the country.
At the firmwhich worked for celebrities, the incoming young attorneys started off as unpaid interns. I'm dead serious they were "attorney interns," I posted the job ads. One of the interns went to USC Law. A USC student was desperate enough to take that "job".
At the firm which works for hospitals, one law clerk from a top 50 UC was not hired on as an attorney after passing the bar, and one law clerk was hired on as an attorney coming from a bottom ranked school (like 150). She now has a nice office and she moved into the really bougie super expensive nearby apartment complex.
At both firms, the partners and attorneys who make 100k+ most all went to bottom tier schools.
My point is that, it doesnt seem like going to a good school = you get an amazing job...obviously its the best bet to try to get into a T15, but not everyone has that option.
I've already sent out my apps and I likely will get into a top 60 school, which to me seems pretty good. Not stellar, but good. I wasnt intending on retaking the LSAT and waiting another year because I will go nuts continuing to work f/t at my current job and continuing to live w my parents.
Based on TLS posts, I shouldn't even be applying to law school.
My question isnt specific to my situation, I'm just wondering if its really not worth it to go to law school if you dont get into a top school?
Comments
The reason I don't use TLS and other forums is because of blanketing crap like that.
Here is the thing, it entirely depends on the individual, their situation, and their own life and experiences.
Can you get a job by going to UC Hastings - YES
Can you get a job by going to UC Irvine - YES
Can you get a job outside of T-14 - YES
It all depends on factors in your life. How you can handle the debt of law school, the connections you have made, the people you know. It depends on tenacity, it depends on determination. It depends on the individual.
So these freaking blanket "T-14 or bust" statements are great ways to sound elite but they do not tailor to each individual. So the answer will always be IT DEPENDS
Edit; Also forgive me, this topic gets me a bit heated. I do not like people that write others off without knowing anything about them, so there was passion in my words.
I take it somewhat seriously.
Like LSATcantwin said, it really just depends.
Although I post a lot and am on TLS a lot, I'm a strong believer in people just doing whatever they want, they're adults, BUT being aware of their decisions based on finances, goals, among other things. Like if you want a small firm job or want to go into legal aid and go to a decent T2 school in the market you want for a very good price (e.g. Cardozo Law to work in legal aid), then go for it. I wouldn't advocate sticker debt at a T2 though, or to the majority of schools honestly but that's just me, but like I said, finances and goals. If someone is biglaw or bust and will take nothing less, yet are going to cooley law school or some other school that places basically no one in biglaw, then maybe that really is a huge mistake.
I think regarding your two firms, I have read before in some articles where partners spoke about their hiring habits, and they mentioned that they hire people from lower ranked schools because of several factors and not people from high ranked schools. idk, I'm sure you can find it somewhere on google if you just look for something with the appropriate wording. Maybe your firms were like that, or who knows.
I think it is worrisome and I do take it seriously. We know some attorneys in real life that ended up working doc review to survive, even someone from CAL. We did meet a UC Hastings grad working at the Barnes and Noble in San Mateo, but did not want to ask what are you doing here as that would be rude. I think it is a personal and financial decision that each person has to make. If your family can afford to pay for your law school tuition, then it is less risky than someone who takes out 200000 in loans for law school and has to pay back 2000 or more a month, plus pay for housing. I think you can only really weigh this decision when you see who actually accepted you, and if any schools offered loans or scholarships to you.
Statistics show that you have a better chance getting a legal job if you go to a T14. That being said it of course is not guaranteed that you will get a job just because you went to a T14 school. So don’t listen to the naysayers. I personally will not go to law school if I don’t get into a T14 or higher. This is a personal decision because the statistics scare me and I want to be as marketable as possible. But everyone is different and you should go to whichever school works best with your journey.
Luckily ABA 509 disclosures exist where schools report their employment numbers. Once you start looking at some of these, you kind of have no choice but to take some of these posts seriously.
That said, you have to keep in mind that you're much more likely to hear from both ends of the spectrum or outliers: e.g., "my friend went to Cooley and got a job at Cravath" or "my friend went to Boalt and ended up on Skid Row." Both are obviously extreme cases and anecdotes.
But when you look into the numbers...
UC Hastings, according to their 509 and LST, has a 50% employment rating. Half of the people don't find jobs within 9 months of graduation there... Loyola is 61% according to LST.
Both of these schools cost above $320,000 all in. Scholarships can make these choices more attractive, but when half of the class are struggling to get jobs, if you're any type of logical person, you have to wonder what the hell is going on.
My views are best summed up as > @goingfor99th said:
I also love what @TheMikey Mikey wrote in that it's very situational. Everyone has different goals and different levels of risk they're comfortable with. This girl I work with left her job to go to NYLS at full sticker. Her dad owns a moderately successful tax practice in NYC, so she just needs a J.D. and from where likely won't matter much for her goals. Cardozo is a wonderful school that I've even been looking into for the right price*. Their placement in NYC is pretty damn good! But I'm sure as heck not going there full sticker in hopes of working at a vault firm upon graduation...So it depends...
To add to @"surfy surf"'s anecdote above about unpaid law interns, I, too, have seen how desperate grads can be. You have to realize that law is one of the only professional fields where this happens regularly. It's downright preposterous... In any case, this is all the more reason to work hard and achieve a good LSAT. There are many, many schools outside of the T13 that are worth going to under the right circumstances. Many of those circumstances include with a big scholarship, so make sure to aim high!
And always remember: It's a hell of a lot easier to work hard now prepping for the LSAT than to work hard in law school and to get a job. Your LSAT score is 100% up to you now that there are unlimited takes. Finding a job isn't always in our control. Study hard my fellow 7sagers
@"Alex Divine" there was a thread on TLS about UC hasting’s awful bar passage rate making it difficult to really understand the employment %. i.e. if only 50% of the students pass the bar...and 50% of the students are hired as attorneys...
I really dont know anything about this, just food for thought
I personally think it is very much dependent on the individual and what one desires to do with their JD.
Yeah, I mean, when you look at the corresponding bar passage rates, it makes a lot more sense. UC Hasting's bar passage rate is 67.8% and their employment 50%. They've really let their numbers go in the past 10 years. The real eyebrow raiser here is that many of these schools continue to increase their tuition in the face of clear problems.
Law school tuition across the board needs to go down a bit. Only top schools should be able to charge premium tuition as the ROI is higher.
Agreed!!!
For those of you interested in BigLaw. Would you all opt for t13 at sticker over a WashU with full tuition?
Yes, definitely I'd say.
With Big Law? Sure, because you're going to be there for a while.
But if you do a full ride at WashU and then you do Big Law? Then you're a Big Baller and you can afford those expensive Big Baller shoes and a nice apartment rather than some Hong Kong styled closet home because you're busy paying those loans off.
Depends on the T13, long term goals, and financial situation.
Are you BL or bust, or simply interested?
Is the T13 school(s) you are interested in located in an area you would like to live in for 3 years? How portable is this T13's degree? UT Austin, for example, doesn't place too great outside of Texas. Especially WRT to big law.
The average person stays in BL for under 2-3 years. So always keep that in mind.
WashU places like 30%+ into big law and for full tuition, I think it's a wonderful option. Most T13s at sticker will set you back 300k. If you're only going to likely be in BL for 3 years, you'll likely only be able pay off only part of that debt.
Take them seriously. The elitism is terrible, but the underlying rationale should strike you as important: you don't want to be racked with debt and have a difficult time finding a job in the field that you racked up that debt for. I think it is cause to look closer @ the employment data of each school, along with more particular aspects for that data. That said, it is neither (a) impossible, nor (b) highly improbable that you will be able to find employment at many schools outside of the T-14. I think that there are at least two main things going on with ppl (I happen to be a member of this group) who aim exlusively at the T-14: (1) good ol' fashioned prestige mongering, and (2) a healthy dose of risk aversion. Obviously, different individuals in that group will have more specific reasons as well, but it seems these are two general factors.
TLS does seem to exhibit these factors to a very unhealthy degree, sadly.
In any case, I would say make sure that you think carefully about finances as you apply and decide. Good luck!--A.c.S
T-14 could probably be sufficient but not necessarily necessary for becoming a successful lawyer. A colleague told me of a partner she knows and he told her that he could definitely sense that incoming attorneys from higher ranked schools are better trained. If not for the training and prestige, the networking opportunities are unparalleled in the top 14. If law school is your dream, do not give up but forums like TLS provide a good wake up call about the realities of financing a six figure debt on a 5 figure income.
The conversations that take place at T14 schools seem different than the conversations that take place at lower ranked schools. I don't say that to be cruel. At Stanford, the in-class conversations are hard to keep up with if you aren't right there with the readings.
I would take them totally seriously. I think what they are saying though is a financial statement rather than one about what you should do. I think TLS means to say that unless you go to a Top 14 or could and elect to take a scholarship instead, law school is too risky to make sense as a financial investment.
Now, if it is your dream to be a lawyer, you may choose to go anyway. But, you should do so knowing it is not automatically a good financial choice. You can't bet on securing an above median outcome wherever you go by trying harder because everyone expects to try harder. But if you are willing to take a financial hit to be a lawyer, I don't think TLS can tell you that you are wrong.
If we acknowledge that it is a potential or even likely financial loss to go to these schools though, then it makes sense to minimize that loss as much as possible before going. This means scoring as highly as possible for you on the LSAT. It doesn't sound to me like you think you have done that. If you had, the reason you wouldn't be willing to retake would be that you know you can't score significantly better rather than not being able to handle living with your parents or working your job.
Count me skeptical. I sat in on a class at U of M halfway through the semester that was perfectly followable without reading the lecture material.
Further, I would tend to believe this depends more on the class, material, and even teacher than the school.
Everything that I have heard anecdotally runs the opposite direction. The caliber of class discussions, effort level of your peers, content, and competition offered at various law schools is shockingly similar given the vast differential in the career prospects of those attending. This is why with good 1L grades(which you can never count on given the nature of the curve no matter what the school) it is stunningly easy to transfer up into the Top 14 or even Top 3.
I don't think you've visited schools as low-ranked as I have. lol
Of course it depends on class, school, teacher, student. That's the point. I'm sure most T14 are pretty similar, which is why the ROI is so similar among them.
My thinking is the same as many others on this thread; yes and no. I can’t stand TLS for the snark and condescension. I don’t fully agree with them, but there is some truth to this concept. I would say, don’t go to any non-T14 for full sticker. And I think only HYS are probably worth full sticker, and only if you plan on going into biglaw. I feel like top 50 with a very healthy scholarship is perfectly fine, and lower than that I wouldn’t consider without at least close to full ride. There are so many factors to consider though that are really important and I agree that it is situational. If you are interested in PI/government like I am, the most important factor is cost. I need to squeeze every $$ out that I can. So that likely means a lot of the T14 isn’t a good match for me anyway. I don’t have any outside programs or savings that’s paying for this, so have to keep loans down as much as possible. TLS would tell me I’m an idiot that shouldn’t go to law school so I stay away from that. I’m not looking for any prestigious job, just enough to make a living. Biglaw sounds like a nightmare to me. A respectable, preferably top 50, school in an area I want to live with a big scholarship sounds like just the right fit for me though and I’m very content with that goal.
I would remember, though, that there is hellish competition for some public interest roles right out of law school. Also, remember that the loan repayment programs tend to be better at the T-14 then elsewhere.--A.c.S
@"Leah M B" I have the same attitude. Although i’m not looking into PI. I want a t50 with a lot of merit$ in an area I want to live and continue to work in the future. With my bachelor’s in philosophy, there’s not much I can do but get teaching credentials and a master’s/PHD and teach, which I don’t want to do. Most people I know who got “practical” bachelor’s degrees are struggling. I could get a paralegal cert but most of the paralegals I know are even more stressed and have even more work to do than attorneys. A law degree, even from a t50, seems like the only thing I can do which will have earning potential in the future. It’s also something I’m passionate about and have always wanted to do, so I’m willing to take a risk...I think
Don't question yourself!
Just do your research. If you get significant tuition help at a T-50 school, and have some good relationships in the legal profession, why not do it? You know your situation better than anyone here. It's up to you to make a cost/benefit of YOUR situation. Everyone else can't do that for you, so don't let it discourage you. If you crunch the numbers, and see that it will put you into horrible debt and you don't think you have a good chance at a job then reconsider. If you think you can avoid the debt with scholarships and things and you have some people you know who work in the legal field then maybe it's worth it!! Don't let others dictate your life to you.
I don't take anything on TLS seriously, mostly because I had a bitter experience with it. Before I fully committed to applying to law , I posted a question on there hoping someone could help me. I said I was interested in humanitarian work and wondered if law school was a realistic choice for pursuing something in that field, and what options were like out there. I also said "my LSATs" while asking questions about studying (cause n00b).
Let me tell you, TLS ripped me to shreds. Despite the fact that I made it clear that I was an undergraduate student who was seeking help, they tore me apart. Firstly, I was attacked for saying "my LSATs" instead of "the LSAT" lol. Then they went on to say I was naive for thinking I could ever use a law degree to pursue humanitarian work and it's a hopeless dream. Nobody even bothered to remotely answer my question. I was so discouraged by the aggression and competitiveness on that forum, and haven't visited it since. IDK, that's just my two cents on that site.
It's obviously something important to consider but I don't think it's always the case, and I think it's a huge overstatement to say that you won't get a job without a T14. You may not get into a top law firm in the US if you did not attend a T14 school, but I know plenty of people in the US who ended up using their law degrees to work in a variety of different fields. To me, a law degree can both set you on the path to being a lawyer, or it could act as a stepping stone toward working in NPOs, governmental positions, international bodies, etc. If you feel like you are flexible career-wise, then it all depends I guess. Obviously, thinking about your finances adds another layer of consideration - if you truly feel like you couldn't get a good-paying job after racking up debt at a T14 school, then that's something to be cognizant of as well.
Not everyone on TLS is an asshole. You guys can figure out who's who if you really care to. There is a lot of useful information on there. Anecdotes may not always be useful indicators of anything, but sometimes they can be.
^ this
I think it's just a matter of preference. I don't like that kind of attitude and prefer to avoid it, so I stay away from TLS and other forums. I've had bad experiences and read shocking things.
It also has amazing information with a lot of really intelligent and helpful people. Each user might face a different experience and be looking for a different thing. No point in arguing about which forum is good/bad because it's so subjective.
It's not like we are even really all arguing different things. The consensus for OP was to be careful, do research, and participate in a cost/benefit before making a decision. We're all agreeing here, it's because we're all so awesome
My 7Sage crew!
https://media1.tenor.com/images/ddff032666ac8fd1a7f25447d81a3e8f/tenor.gif?itemid=5207377
I’m so sorry to hear your experience! There is so much negativity on that site...
I really don’t like that kind of attitude and prefer to avoid it too.
Plus I don’t like forums powered by phpBB®. They are so 2001.lol
https://media.giphy.com/media/p9O75RBS946He/giphy.gif
Horrible.
Yes, I'm aware. I've done my research and know what's a good fit for me. I said "a lot" of the T-14 isn't a good fit, like the schools that require you to take on the max debt. I'm very interested in Northwestern, which is working on expanding their help for students interested in PI and has been ramping up funding for summer positions and their LRAP. But it's a pretty bad idea to take on $200k in debt just for name recognition if you're planning on going into PI.
I still go to TLS because it is a big well of information, like for researching schools or the application process. And no, not everyone is an asshole. But the general vibe is pretty crappy most of the time, IMO.
^ Yes, that.
https://media.giphy.com/media/DQ94PFPPETZCM/giphy.gif
Since we're on the theme ...
https://media.giphy.com/media/5yLgocdBwy0leJe89R6/giphy.gif
I've heard this frequently that most people only last a few years in biglaw. But even with that being the case, I think most people don't go from biglaw 170k to 50k. Generally they are able to lateral to another solid gig that pays a comparable wage.
I don't love TLS. I think a lot of the good information gets somewhat counteracted by the brazenly blanket statements and the undercurrent of elitism, and therefore often gets lost in the shuffle. But, I also have found that a lot of the people who take significant offense at what TLS spews out also tend to be the people who need to hear it most (though often there is an element of nuance that needs to be introduced to properly frame the discussion).
When TLS sneers at a 50% employment rate and treats it like it's garbage, it's a necessary counterbalance to the person who thinks "of course" they'll get one. TLS talks like only T14 kids go to biglaw, which is a necessary counterbalance to the people who look at law firm partners that went to now mediocre-or-worse schools and have no clue that the employment environment is completely different now than it was 30 years ago. TLS loves talking about raw numbers, which is a necessary counterbalance to the cherry-picked anecdotal evidence that people often use to convince themselves they're making a good choice despite objective evidence to the contrary.
And to be perfectly honest, there are a LOT more people who have convinced themselves that they're god's gift to law school and that they're just being held back by _______ (the evil LSAT, that one bad semester, their unreasonable professors, their circumstances...) and that once they have the proper opportunity to 'show everyone' they'll be locked into success than there are people who have realistic outlooks on the cost-benefit analysis.
Unfortunately in life, people will often give you good nuggets of feedback wrapped in terrible, rude delivery. I don't like that and wish people would quit being pricks. But I also think if you can't glean the relevant information and separate your emotions from your rationality, that's totally on you.
So yeah. Take it seriously. Just don't take it uncritically.
You're right, they generally don't go from making 180k to 50k, but a 180k --> 85k certainly isn't uncommon.
You'd be surprised at the pay cut many, many associates take. I actually end up working with a good number of big law refuges in one capacity or another, and they probably end up making half of what they made at a market paying firm here in NYC, as VPs in-house at a bank. Many leave to go to "in-house" jobs that pay much better, but those still tend to pay significantly less. Further, the ones who tend to land the better paying gigs are generally the ones who stick it out to year three or later. It's also not uncommon for many people to leave the law all together after their stint in big law.
All this to say, don't bank on BL to pay off your loans to the point you make imprudent financial decisions.
Duke Law grads have a median starting salary of 180k, mid-career median salary of 220k. I think a lot of people who go to T14 end up making a lot of money their whole careers.
A lot of people go into public service because they want to, also.
To some extent whether or not you 'need' to go to a 'top' school depends on what you want to do. T14 offers the average graduate more than schools ranked lower. T3 can offer more to certain people than other schools still. Some people have legitimate reasons to attend certain schools over others within the T14, too.
Most importantly, people who say 'T14 or bust' aren't always trying to be cruel.
@goingfor99th My question isn't about making 200k a year
Do you want to go into BigLaw? Do you have enough money to cover tuition? What do you want to do after law school? How hard do you want to work?
@"surfy surf" I think you're on the right track. You have your journey planned and are confident in your decision don't let the TLS forum get in your head. I think it's smart that you are going to a school well-known in your region. That will certainly aid in getting a job. A lot of schools who aren't T14 are popular in the region and many employers like to hire from them. For instance, here in Dallas SMU is immensely popular and I'm sure if I went to school there and did well I'd be able to land a job in the area even though it's ranked #46. If I wanted to stay in Dallas permanently, I'd consider SMU a viable option. But since I want the option to live and work anywhere, I prefer to go to a T14 school.
I think something helpful to do is see what an average outcome is from the school you're considering attending. Also, as mentioned above, definitely make sure to check out their 509 disclosures to check out their employment stats, too. What does someone who finishes with median grades end up doing?
Then, using a debt calculator, figure out what your student loan payments would be, and see if you would be okay financially with that outcome with the average salary of a grad from said school. Then look more closely at what types of jobs they are getting. Linkedin is a great resource for this as is mylsn. You have to remember that people who go to lower ranked schools and end up with high paying jobs, like in your examples, are outliers.
You also seem to be pretty knowledgable about the state of the legal market because of your experience. Is there any way to leverage your network to a possible job during your 2L summer or after graduation? They likely can't give you a definite answer, but it's something to maybe dig into a bit.
Also, I feel you on not wanting to retake the LSAT due to life circumstances. But if the option is another year working + living with your parents, and that nets you a score that will literally change the course of your life by allowing you to attend a school much better or with substantially lower cost, it's really something to consider. Even if you spend a year studying for a retake, and end up going to that same T60 school with more scholarship money, it's likely worth it.
Don't ever feel like if you can't get into a T14 school you shouldn't go to law school, though. You have to remember that TLS is a forum specifically for students interested in top law schools. So there is going to be tons of elitism and a healthy dose of realism. I've seen time and time again people succeed going to non-T14 schools. Enough people to know it's a feasible option. You just have to be smart, realistic, and prudent about what the best options available to you are.
So I posted about my stats on TLS once and one commenter said "you wont get into any of the schools you applied to with those stats." I have in fact gotten into most of the schools I applied to. In at 3 UCs, and waitlisted at Fordham and UCLA. Still reapplying next year but seriously some of the TLS posters are aholes.
Alot of these posters were around the time when economy crashed in 2008. If you look at employment numbers around 2010, you will see that alot of schools have underperformed, including t14. Many t14 graduates at that time couldnt secure a job. So, their sentiment has some merit. I disagree with their delivery and they overexagerwte. There is one poster who keeps telling everyone to retake and that you have no chance of biglaw in boston college and ucla
$200K-$300K debt is risky for anyone, T14 or not. T14 is of course great overall if it works out financially, and pretty much essential if you want to be a law professor or high court judge. T14 or bust won't make sense for everyone though. For example, let's say you want to go to Big Law in SF in IP but you don't have an EE/CS degree. Even if you went to Harvard or Yale, for many IP jobs these days you would be easily edged out by a person from Santa Clara's part-time evening program with an EE/CS background who worked for a couple of years at Apple. There's pretty much no reason for that person from Santa Clara to forgo a huge scholarship in order to attend Harvard at full tuition in order to land that that kind of job. And once they're doing that job for a few years at a good firm, no one cares which school they attended. There's also a big sampling bias with the law school employment stats. The T14 attracts and cherry picks students that were employable based on their backgrounds alone. The problem with the lower ranked schools is they also admit a lot of students that they could pretty much guess would struggle but they need to make money to pay for the scholarships for the ones they are trying to lure in (sadly). It takes a bit of self awareness to know what you're really paying for in this admissions game and I think some folks just get wrapped up in identifying themselves with the schools/degree instead of what they ultimately want to do with their lives.
@"Leah M B" - I would SO love to hear that you found something interesting to do related to PI that you could write about in your next round of applications rather than doing a paralegal cert. It's expensive (>$10K for the program - I took about 9 classes in the past thinking along your lines before stopping) and it will give you a job that will likely be clerical if you're entry level. But if you went to work with a non-profit or even volunteered on the side with an organization, you'd get connections in the PI work world. It's easier to get your foot in the door with connections now before they have to consider you for an attorney-level job. This could be a blessing in disguise down the road.
My last comment was just re being told a few months ago that I literally would not get into a single school with my GPA/LSAT. It wasn’t about financial security or t14s or the 2008 economy or whatever. There’s a diff bn saying “retake and get more scholarship money and job/financial security” vs “retake because you won’t get in to a single school you apply to with your current score”
I mean, do many people agree with you on this? I think the strongest part of your claim is the EE/CS stuff but even that I'm skeptical of.
I think top schools do a pretty damn good job of determining which candidates are serious and which aren't, which are more serious relative to others for whatever reasons, etc. Of course, people fall through the cracks in any ranking system. Humans aren't perfect, adcomms are humans. I think most people who make it to the T14 make it there for a number of good/great reasons. Most also know what it means to take on debt.
It may have some merit. My friend works in biotech in nyc and the ceo actively seeks fordham lawyers for their IP department. These are all anecdotal of course.
Yeah, hard IP makes sense. I visited my state law school (very small, only 70 students per class, actually quite an interesting place doing interesting things in an admittedly tiny legal market) and I met with someone who planned to do hard IP stuff. He worked as a forensic scientist for a number of years prior. I think a lot of hard IP folks have hard science backgrounds because that was their first calling. Of course, this isn't the only way it could happen.