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Wednesday, Apr 29 2015

974

Logic Games Attack Strategy

So I've got three weeks left in the Army before I start terminal leave and I've finally reached the end of the learning curriculum and the only thing that stands in between me and 4-5 months of PTs is the LG Bundle. As I finished up the last few LG sections in the curriculum I saw a lot of people were having the same questions, concerns and other issues with how to approach their LG studies and utilizing the Fool Proof Method and since I don't really have a job or much to do at work anymore I thought I'd offer up my solution and strategy to address some of these problems. I think the Fool Proof Method is awesome, but I tweaked it very slightly for my purposes and I think it could help some people out to employ a similar strategy. If this helps you in any way, please pass it along to anyone else who may be struggling.

Top concerns I have seen from other people:

1) I think 10 copies of every LG is wasting paper.

2) I don't have enough time to do all the LGs.

3) I want to know the categories for every LG I'm doing.

4) When do I do which games and how often do I do them again?

Before I answer these questions directly, here is what I've actually done to set myself up for success. If you were fortunate enough to get the LG Bundle before LSAC made it vanish, then you have all the games from PTs 1-35 which is 140 games. If you have anything less than that, just scale down what I'm prescribing, but everything should still go along as I outline here. I got a few 2" 3-ring binders and filled them with document protectors. I then began with PT 1 and printed out 4 copies of the first game (more on this later), which if you have the LG Bundle is 8 pieces of paper since 7Sage was kind enough to format the old LGs like the new ones with 2 pages and plenty of room to work. If you don't have this I'd say add a piece of scratch paper in with each game to give yourself extra space to simulate what you'll have on the LSAT. I then placed all 4 copies of the first game in a document protector and put a sticky note on the front denoting the following: PT#, LG#, and then a chart with 1st-4th attempts on the vertical axis and Date/Time/Score on the horizontal axis (more on this later as well). I then repeated this process for each subsequent game so that now I have a binder full of 4 copies of each LG, although due to the volume of paper you'll need at least 2 or 3 binders like I mentioned above.

All the information I collect on the sticky notes I will put into a very simple Excel spreadsheet I have designed to track my progress. If you've read this far and are still interested, feel free to message me your email and I will send you a blank copy of the spreadsheet I designed so you can use it and tweak it how you see fit. In a nutshell it has space to log the date/time/score for every attempt for every LG in the bundle.

The first attempt is simply that, just my first shot at a new LG. I time everything with a stopwatch so I know how I'm doing, but I don't set a timer because that doesn't really make sense to me since I'm working to standard and not to time. If you time yourself and stop then you won't know how long the game is actually taking you, so always use a stopwatch (I hope this is common sense at this point). So once I finish I record the date and the time it took me and I blind review and then check my score. I then record only the score I got while timing myself since this is LG and there is no way you should get LG questions wrong during BR since you can just brute force the answers if need be if you really don't understand something. If you're missing LG questions on BR then in my opinion there is something seriously wrong in your methodologies and you need to perhaps relearn the basics unless you just misread a question or something like that.

After recording the data on the sticky note and transferring it to my spreadsheet I watch JY's video explanation and go over the game and then I put that LG in the back of the document protector it came from behind the clean LGs and take out the second copy. I then make my second attempt, timing myself, doing my BR, recording all data, and then rewatching the video if necessary. I then make my third attempt the next day, and my fourth attempt I make a week later, always following the same methodologies as I did on the first attempt.

My thinking is that if I'm really serious about this, I should be able to conquer any given LG in four tries. Two in a row should see a huge time and accuracy improvement since it's so fresh in my mind, then the third and fourth attempts simply reinforce this improvement and the retention of the strategy. This also makes you more efficient since you know that each LG is simply a 7-8 day practice exercise. Trying to schedule out an additional 6 attempts to do all 10 copies just seemed ridiculous to me given that there are 140 LGs to do in the bundle. In my mind it's better to be able to develop mastery more quickly and then encounter a wider variety of games in order to make sure you're ready for everything. Of course, if there is an incredibly hard LG then obviously that may require additional attempts, but this should be a rare exception to the rule.

So to revisit the concerns I noted above, here are my solutions:

1) Obviously you're going to have to get over using some paper, so cutting that down by 60% should be a good tradeoff to help get you into law school in my opinion. And once you get your 170+ you can go recycle all that paper!

2) If you don't have time to do all the LGs, just scale down the above and do what you have time for. If you know it will take a week turnaround per LG and you can do 5 per day, then you know you can get at least 30-35 done in a two week period depending on if you take a day off or not. At this rate you could do more than 100 LGs before the June LSAT if need be (but you should probably be focusing on PTs). If you have to scale way down I'd recommend randomly picking PTs from 1-35 and doing all the games in that PT so you shouldn't end up doing all of the same kind of question and will get a better feel for the variability within a given test.

3) In my opinion you absolutely should never record the category of any game you attempt. If you do, it will negatively influence your work since you will know going in to use a chart or to sequence and group rather than just deducing what needs to be done. When you take the LSAT it doesn't say GROUPING GAME in bold type at the top of the page, so you should practice like its the real thing, which means no knowledge of categories.

4) I think I addressed this well in my strategy above, but it bears repeating: Make 4 attempts: 1st - Today, 2nd - Immediately afterwards, 3rd - Tomorrow, 4th - In a week (either a week from attempts 1&2 or a week from your 3rd attempt, that's your call schedule wise).

Anyways, I know this is a bit long but I hope it helps at least one person because as a longtime lurker I have gotten a lot of help from the community here and I wanted to try to do my part to give at least a little bit back. If anyone is still reading this and wants more details or wants photos of my binders or that Excel spreadsheet, feel free to hit me up anytime. Best of luck to all the June LSAT takers and to everyone else in your studies!

~Pacifico

P.S.- Though I am more than happy to help anyone here with any issues they may have, I will not send you the LG Bundle as that would violate both 7Sage and LSAC regulations. Please don't put me or anyone else in that position because I am trying to help people here and won't break the law to do so. Thanks for your cooperation!

P.P.S. - I don't check my inbox on here anymore, but if you have any questions you can DM me on Twitter @pacificosoldati and I'll do my best to help you however I can.

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Thursday, Jun 25 2015

974

7Sage and Trainer LG Techniques

I mostly bought the Trainer for some new perspectives on LR, and considered skipping the LG portions all together since I have been doing really well with 7Sage's style and was worried that learning another would mess me up. I ended up starting the LG sections in the Trainer and have actually found them to be a pretty good complement to the methodologies of 7Sage so far. For example, the use of shapes and vertical lists of the elements are two things that I found off putting at first but after working with them a bit I definitely see the value there.

So my question is, for any of the 7Sage/Trainer devotees, what did you like best about each methodology and what have you picked from each to forge your own approach. Do any of @nicole.hopkins , @emli1000 , @blah170blah or anyone else have some insights on this that they would like to share? Thanks in advance!

Not sure who would have to be the architect for this, and I'm sure it wouldn't be done before I take the LSAT in October, but I was thinking for future 7Sagers it would be nice to make the study schedule more interactive. As an example, I have had the Ultimate package for a while now and I recently finished the curriculum and have taken a couple of PTs, but I also just bought the most recent PTs when they were on sale before the LSAC PDF ban took effect. I also bought the PS bundle to complete the total 7Sage package. Because of this, and also due to the removal of the LG Bundle, my schedule has gone all over the place. Previously I was supposed to have started PTs next week, but now I'm supposed to have already finished 6 PTs.

I think it would be great if we could pick what we wanted to be on our schedule and then generate based on those chosen tasks whether it was specific lessons or whole subsections of the curriculum. For example, I don't need the PS Bundle to appear the week before the LSAT since I won't be working on it then, but I would like the LG Bundle to be factored back in. I think the best possible way to do this would be to somehow integrate the syllabus with the study schedule so that I could star any items that I wanted on my schedule and then set a start date and test date. This way I could star specific lessons to review throughout my PT schedule in order to make sure I was keeping all my skills up without having to go back and search out those lessons.

Anyways, I'm sure this is asking a lot of the creators of this site, but I love this site and have gotten so much out of it that I just wanted to make this suggestion to see if there was any popular support for such an improvement and hopefully we could help out future users based on our own user experiences.

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974
Thursday, Jul 19 2018

Bumping for any fall test takers still needing help with Logic Games.

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974
Tuesday, Apr 17 2018

I'd definitely throw Sapiens on this list now.

Hey everybody,

Since many people have been clamoring for this I thought I'd start a new thread for the older and non-traditional future lawyers among us. Feel free to ask any questions you may have or share any stories or ideas you think would be beneficial to the non-trad community here. I'll bump this thread as needed for awhile to keep things going if people are lurking more than posting.

All that being said, don't despair old people! This is not business school so you are not getting dinged for your age around here. I know we are getting late in the app season but if anyone has questions for applying as an older candidate then bring them on and myself and other old timers will do our best to assist you!

Also feel free to talk about any other old people stuff you want (e.g.- marriage, kids, finding a reliable babysitter, etc.) and most of all have fun!

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974
Sunday, Apr 15 2018

@ said:

"If you can take a train I'd say that's 100% doable "

Ha! This is AZ. Pay little taxes, get little benefit. No such thing as trains. Or really much in the way of mass transit at all. Nearly everyone drives. To have an honest-to-god, city-hopping train would be amazing. CA folks may complain of their taxes, but you guys don't know how good you have it there.

My kiddo should be 10 by the time I leave for law school, maybe 11 if things don't work out right on schedule. We're old school parents who encourage independence and responsibility, so she has learned to do a lot for herself and around the house. The emotional toll is something I can't control, though. We talk about it often, so she knows what's going on, why it's important, how it helps her and our family, and that she'll have good support and care even if I'm not here. So far, she's handling the idea very well.

There is also the possibility of my family coming down to spend time with me during weekends as well at the school's location, maybe upwards of twice a month. So maybe something could be arranged to make it easier. In the summers, potentially for a week at a time. Definitely food for thought.

If I understand you correctly, summers are pretty mandatory for necessary internships and other credit related work? I kinda figured that might be the case for 2L, but didn't count on that for 1L.

Anyway, thanks for the responses! You rock!

As far as summers go, you just want to maximize utility for your own life, but no matter what you want to be gaining more legal experience in some form or another, at least part time. Even people who struggle to find jobs before graduation have been getting legal experience during their summers, so there aren't really many people who don't do some legal work during 1L summer. Well paid legal internships are the best possible outcome for most people, but public interest work doesn't usually pay unless you have some type of stipend or fellowship to do the work. So anyone looking into public interest has their hands tied to just endure unpaid work for the most part. As I mentioned previously, it was better for me to take 4 credits for an externship and work part time rather than taking a stipend. Maybe you would want to seek out 8 week gigs to spend more time with your family, or find something close to you for legal work. You've got to hustle one way or the other on the employment front and then still make it fit with your life.

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Sunday, Jun 14 2015

974

Site Changes

I've been trying to answer a lot of people's questions about the changes going on with the site, and I trust that y'all have a plan in place for the new problem sets and all that. However, I don't get why all of the explanations have been removed from the analytics page. It was so easy to jump right into reviewing after I BR because I could just open a new tab right off of the analytics page with my scored PT breakdown showing individual links for explanations for each question. After poking around I finally discovered I could still access the explanations, but now I have to go to the syllabus, find the PT I just did, and then go to a page with no information on my performance and select whatever questions I'd like to review. I'm hoping this is just a byproduct of some ongoing transitions behind the scenes because it was much more user friendly in the previous setup. I know that y'all work hard to make this site what it is, so @"Dillon A. Wright" or @alancheuk could either of you shed some light on this for us? I know I'm not the only one with these questions. Thanks for all that you do for this community, we really appreciate it!

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974
Saturday, Apr 14 2018

UCI has one of the highest rates of student satisfaction in the country. Trust me you won't regret the decision.

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974
Saturday, Apr 14 2018

@ said:

UCI recently UCLA in biglaw/clerkship numbers at 41 percent. Do you think this is sustainable or its anomaly? I'm just slightly worried that the exceptionally small class played a role, whixh wont be the case when class of 2021 graduate.

The clerkship side of things is definitely sustainable given the relationships the school, faculty, and administrators have established.

On the big law side, of course it's sustainable if more people who want to do big law keep coming here. UCI's big law numbers have always been largely suppressed by people self-selecting for public interest, which has always been and continues to be the school's focus. The school has proven itself that it can produce plenty of big law attorneys who can perform at a high level, many of whom are being groomed for partnership over the next few years. We've sent transfers to Harvard, so frankly from my perspective the school has now more than shown that it provides opportunities for people who are willing to come and seize them. Will it be easier for you to get big law from the T-14? Almost invariably yes because the GPA requirements will be lower.

But again I really don't see the value in putting too much stock in numbers like this at any school because I think it is still all about individuals. UCI could randomly admit people with all sorts of career desires that all end up in public interest and the big law rate would drop to zero. Would that mean you couldn't get big law from UCI? No, of course not. You either show up ready to hustle and make things happen for yourself, or you hustled enough before to go somewhere you don't need to hustle so much.

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974
Saturday, Apr 14 2018

@ said:

@ said:

Hey y'all!

After meeting my second 7Sager in the wild at ASW this past weekend (forgot to get a screen name) I thought it was high time to pop back over here and see how things are going and if anyone has any UCI related questions they want to ask me or maybe even @ if he can spare the time during 1L. I'm currently a second year JD/MBA student at UCI; I finished my 1L last May and am in my first full year of business school and have another quarter in the fall before I head back to the law school next spring. I won't go into too much more detail than that to start but I'm happy to answer anything I can about UCI, JD/MBAs, law school with kids (two boys under four), pro bono, externships, OCI, law school as an older/non-traditional student, student government and organizations, law school as a veteran, or whatever else strikes your fancy. I'll try to check in on a regular basis to see what questions y'all have.

And for all the 7Sagers heading this way I can't wait to meet y'all!

If you want to read more ramblings about law school, business school, politics and more, you can also follow me on Twitter here (my DMs are open if anyone ever wants to reach out directly and I check that much more often): https://twitter.com/cametosayhello

P.S. - it should go without saying but because this is law school I'll just point out that everything here is solely my opinion and I'm not here on behalf of the school in any official capacity, nor do I speak for them.

Hey, UCI is one of the schools I'm most interested in. It seems like a new and exciting program and who doesn't want to be a part of something exciting, right? Could you speak on my perception of it? What kind of vibe does the campus have? How much so-cal influence makes it on campus? Are you from so-cal? What was your gpa, lsat and age coming in? Sorry if you've answered similar questions, I haven't read the entire thread yet and am gearing up to leave work soon.

With barely over 1,000 graduates it is an incredibly small and unique environment, though it is growing every year. My class was the largest in school history until last year's 1L class and this year's incoming class looks poised to beat that. If you need 200 years of storied history and prestige to carry you aloft into a lifetime of top notch careers you are barking up the wrong tree. But it sounds like you're more the innovative, entrepreneurial type who would enjoy building a school's prestige rather than trading off of it. Campus is pretty small relative to UCI overall, it's pretty chill until anxiety becomes palpable when writing assignments are due or exams are coming around, but that's true anywhere I'm sure.

I can get to the beach in about 15 minutes from the library. And by that I mean literally sitting on the beach. Definitely the best locale of any Top 25 law school in my opinion. Law school is a lot less stressful without snow pants I guess you could say. It's pretty SoCal vibe-wise as about half the student body is from here so it's generally laid back. You also have to consider it is a young law school started by a bunch of people who went to top law schools and hated many of their experiences in those institutions and they wanted to set up somewhat of an antithesis to those dynamics and I think they've largely succeeded. Now, it's still a law school and therefore subject to all the market dynamics for top law schools and the like, but I think there are a lot of people here who are very dedicated to ensuring this school is on the cutting edge for decades and centuries to come.

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974
Saturday, Apr 14 2018

@ said:

Oi! A fellow anteater! Im going to UCI this Fall. I took a year off and this boredom and time off is just taking a huge toll on me because sitting around just SUCKS. Cant wait to get back to school.

Are you satisfied with your choice? I know UCi is a great campus, did my undergrad there, but how is the law school? Good group of people? Good prospects?

I also want to know what to expect my first year, as it's the year that apparently counts "bigly"... besides getting good grades, what do I need to do my first year in order to make sure that im on the right path to getting a job after graduating?

You answered on all of my posts when I was studying for the LSAT...you've got a pitcher waiting for you at the Pub.

Thanks

Congrats! I look forward to meeting you this fall.

I am more than satisfied with my choice and have been since I first sat down in Con Law with Dean Chemerinsky and remain even more satisfied with the selection of Dean Richardson to lead a new era of the school. I really love it here and had a really great time during 1L and definitely miss the daily camaraderie of going through that and wish I could graduate with my class but ultimately I get to have two classes and expand my circle. There's a big emphasis on civility and collegiality at the school and I've been impressed with how much we've been able to make that atmosphere endure as we've become ranked and climbed so quickly. No matter what the identity of your institution, once it is ranked it will start to draw people who come only for the ranking and not for the identity part and so it's important for the student body to continue to pass down a sense of what the community is all about. UCI is not without its flaws, like every other institution I've ever been a part of, but personally I've never had a better relationship with an administration than I have here and it has made a world of difference to me.

If you have never done anything interesting with your life, go and do something interesting so you have something to talk to people about in interviews and while networking. Start networking before you start school if you want. If you live in the area already then try to find some legal work if you want to just start meeting people. Get business cards as soon as you show up to school and go to events and speakers that interest you. Connect with people in person, but remember if you don't stand out in some way beyond grades then all of this will be largely wasted as you just fade into the background. Be appropriately memorable. Get to the point where you can get someone so excited about your future that they give you their business card with you having to ask for it.

Also, and this is very important. Figure out what you don't want to do so you don't waste too much time doing it. Some of the best classes I've taken in life were the ones I hated the most because it allowed me to knock certain pursuits off my list. Get as much experience and exposure in the first place you want to practice as you can.

If you're older and have an interesting life, you've already done the work on becoming interesting, so just keep your head and work hard and maybe you'll get by with slightly worse grades than your K-JD peers, but in the end none of this matters after day one of your first job anyways. I've met plenty of people that lateraled to two firms that would never have been hired straight out of law school.

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974
Saturday, Apr 14 2018

@ said:

Hello @

I am currently considering the J.D./MBA program at the University of British Columbia in Canada, and I am uncertain on whether the extra cost of the MBA is worth it. I don't have any specific industry experience in a field, but my undergrad was in economics and statistics, which were also my favorite subjects. I also really enjoy business, for what that's worth. I have a meeting with the school coming up but I'm trying to figure out if it's worth the extra $50,000 to get my MBA while doing my J.D.. What kind of career opportunities are available to you that might not be available to just a J.D. student and just and MBA student? Thanks a tonne!

All depends on what you do on each side really. On the business side, some people take all quant courses and position themselves nicely for future consulting work, though any MBA could do that. Most graduates I've known have gone into big law but most have some type of desire to have broader careers in adjacent spaces. You can go hardcore into finance and have a bit more street cred in that arena. Though it's not often used for this because the driving mentality is JD only, I think it is ideal for future solo practitioners because it teaches you so much about how to run a business, especially if you take electives geared towards entrepreneurship and management.

Most MBAs are self-admittedly about networking first and foremost, especially now when so many best practices are widely available on the internet. You don't need to get an MBA to learn the content just like you don't need to pursue any degree to learn content anymore, so it's really about the experience of it that you put together for yourself. I'm only like the 20th or so JD/MBA in the history of the school because the program is so new and the law school's focus on public interest didn't put a big focus on JD/MBAs. So we are really still building the prestige and identity of the type of program that this will be and the success of those of us who have come so far will lend significantly to the perception of the program in the decades ahead, which is a much cooler prospect to me than trading off of an established brand.

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974
Saturday, Apr 14 2018

@ said:

Anyway... I wanted to know if the schedule can be worked to try and get maximum time to make it easier for family.

Also, what are summers like schedule-wise?

1L you have zero say at virtually every law school in terms of schedule. Others please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't know anyone who got to choose their 1L schedule. 2L/3L you have more leeway here at UCI but I couldn't speak for other schools that might place different restrictions on people.

Summers are whatever you make of them. You could work part time or full time, paid or unpaid. Generally 1L summers are unpaid and more 2L summers are paid. Unless you have a stipend or fellowship or something all the public interest jobs are unpaid. Credit is way more valuable to me though so I would always take credit over money because it frees up your upper level education. I did a part time externship and worked part time. If you have the right part time work in literally anything you can make more than the stipends pretty easily.

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974
Saturday, Apr 14 2018

@ said:

Hello .. for someone considering doing a JD/MBA what advice you give them or what question would u ask them to consider before they undertake such a program ?

Why do you want to do it?

What skills and knowledge do you hope to get out of it?

What kind of career are you interested in?

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974
Saturday, Apr 14 2018

The other thing I'll just generally say on the remote parenting stuff is that it really matters what age the kids are. If they are under six then those abnormal routines will have much different ramifications than with older children to whom you can more fully explain what is happening. And then once they're teenagers they're likely going to prefer you're out of the house, but then of course you'll be needing money to send them to school, so you won't necessarily want to still be in law school at that point.

On another point I've really loved having kids while going through law school and it's made it so much more entertaining. My kids are almost four and about two and a half and they love the law school and the business school and the schools have been super supportive and they love having kids at all the different events so it's definitely been awesome to see how family friendly UCI is. All that is to say that if anyone is avoiding it because of kids or trying to shield their family from law school it's really helpful to be a part of a community that embraces families and they do exist in law schools.

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974
Saturday, Apr 14 2018

@ said:

@ said:

@ beat me to it. I was curious about how 1L and 2L schedules work. I am married and have a child, and if when I go to law school, I will have to be away from them during the week (4+ hour drive away). How reasonable is the idea of coming home on the weekends going to be? What do summers look like for you?

Thanks for this!

Thank you for posting this question. I have a similar situation. I have a 7 and 4 year-old and the closest law school is an hour away - actually all of the them are about an hour away from me. Travelling two hours a day seems like a bad idea to me, specially for the first year. So, I've been thinking of staying on campus Mon - Thus/Fri and coming home on the weekends. I'm hoping since most law schools have clinicals and electives in the second and third years that this arrangement would only be for the first year of school. Your thoughts would be greatly appreciatd.

I have friends that live as far away as Encinitas and the San Fernando Valley and they commute over an hour everyday, the latter through LA traffic. Personally I think that's some nonsense but everyone does their own thing so ultimately you have to know if you're up for that kind of life. If trains are in the mix, it's too easy. Otherwise it's all on your tolerance for traffic. If you came home every night I'd say treat it like a full time job and just do 8-6 or whatever and don't bring it home so you can just relax on the drive with a podcast or some music or whatever and just leave law school at law school. If that sounds terrible then daily commuting is probably not a great idea.

As a 2L/3L you definitely have a lot more latitude and could set yourself up to only be on campus a couple days a week or maybe find legal work closer to your home, but that's the kind of question it is worth diving deep on during a visit or in communications with admissions personnel.

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974
Saturday, Apr 14 2018

@ said:

@ beat me to it. I was curious about how 1L and 2L schedules work. I am married and have a child, and if when I go to law school, I will have to be away from them during the week (4+ hour drive away). How reasonable is the idea of coming home on the weekends going to be? What do summers look like for you?

Thanks for this!

If you've never been away from your child before I'd highly recommend testing that out a bit. If you can take a train I'd say that's 100% doable if you can cope with being away that much (people do it all the time, but it's not for everyone, so don't listen to people who will come at you with some absolutist BS one way or the other). If you have to drive you are talking about taking ~160 hours away from yourself per semester which I can tell you is what's really going to hurt you. I did over 50 hours of pro bono as a second semester 1L and I know that my grades suffered for it but I'd never trade that for the actual experience I got and the benefit I delivered to my clients. I'd say you're talking like a .3-.5 handicap at least, and probably on the higher side given the added stress of just being on the road for two long drives every weekend.

Last summer I did a part time externship at a legal services organization that helps low income veterans. I also drove for Lyft and started a project to help feed the homeless in Orange County, so I kept pretty busy. My kids are in year round daycare so they have the same schedule regardless of what we're doing. Next summer I'll be at a law firm in Los Angeles.

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974
Saturday, Apr 14 2018

@ said:

Thank you for sharing your story. I am also a parent of two kids, and I am juggling working full-time, LSAT, and earning my HR Management Certificate. I have really thought about pursuing a JD/MBA route at some point down the road. How are you balancing this all? I am eager to hear from others with families :)

Compartmentalization. Don't let your stress compound, let the different types balance each other out. Keeping a human alive and growing and learning is a much different type of stress than reading a casebook or writing a memo. So use them to balance each other out. The less you can bring law school home with you, both physically (in the form of work, books, etc.) and mentally (in the form of stress, anxiety, etc.) the happier you will be and the more you will enjoy the experience. In the end, being a parent turns the volume down on law school and keeps you focused because you have so much more perspective not to mention something outside of yourself to work for. Find other parents and bond over a shared experience most of your classmates won't understand for another 5-10 years.

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974
Saturday, Apr 14 2018

@ said:

General scheduling question --

How many days do you have class and for how many hours?

How much time is spent on externships/clinics?

Are externships/clinics more or less like a student-job as in you work your hours during the day and don't have work to do at home? Or, are they like actual attorney jobs where a lot of times you do have to work overtime and might still have work to take home and work on weekends?

As a 1L we had class Monday-Friday. We take 16.5 credits so it's roughly 16 hours of class per week and then four 90 minute classes of legal research that makes up the .5 credits. The 1L school day was 8:15 - 5:00 second semester though we only went till 4:10/4:20 first semester. My year we had basically three and a half days of class so we'd have say Tuesday morning off, plus Wednesday and Friday afternoons off. The Tuesday mornings off is fairly standard for second semester 1Ls because UCI requires every 1L to go out and do a client interviewing project of some type so that everyone gets face time with a client early on. That's only one of the Tuesdays and then a lot of people do their pro bono in that time slot on the remaining Tuesdays. My upperclassmen friends mostly have three or four day weeks for class and then work outside on pro bono or other projects.

Everyone at UCI is required to do a clinic or equivalent alternative field placement. We have eight different core clinics to choose from as well as various elective clinics. Our core clinics are six credits so I think that's somewhere around 240-250 hours of work or so. For clinics people do the work whenever they can. People that prefer freedom on nights and weekends seem to do it during the day if they have time but people do it whenever they can in the end and you work in various size groups in our clinics so that dynamic can definitely affect the times people are getting the work done.

Externships are totally different because you're usually either working for a judge or public interest law office or organization of some type. In those cases you're generally just doing the 9-5 or whatever hours you work there and don't take it home, though I'm sure some people vary in that experience. I did a part time externship over the summer at the same place I had done pro bono so it was a seamless transition for me and I was working about 15 hours per week there on average.

Ultimately, because clinics are school run they invariably take on more of a school work schedule even though you are running your own case(s) and doing legal work. Of course, theoretically if you just ran into the wrong type of management in a public interest setting it could take on various types of dynamics but if things go south you can always tell the school and get out of there.

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974
Friday, Apr 13 2018

I'm in my 2nd year of a 4 year JD/MBA program and I love it. There's a lot of things I would love to improve about both sides, but ultimately it is all what you make of it. Full disclosure I go to school for free with my GI Bill, so the calculus is a bit different as I'll only graduate with less than $100k of COL debt, though if you go to big law straight out of a JD/MBA program I don't think it's that different because you can pay the debt down so quickly.

The flip side of the time value of money argument is that if you think of yourself as the investment rather than the monetary debt then it's better to do the joint degree instead of waiting 10-15 years of practicing law and then having to do an MBA on nights and weekends. I have made connections in business school that I know have the potential to pay dividends throughout my whole life and I can't really put a price on that because to me some of them are worth far more than the price of admission. If you go the corporate law route you are going to need to educate yourself somewhere and most attorneys I talk to in transactional practices had to teach themselves finance, accounting, or some other discipline on top of the new legal areas so it cut into personal time there pretty much no matter what.

I think the MBA is really valuable in that it just teaches you another way to think that is really different from how lawyers think so it just gives you a much broader perspective and I'm all for diversity of education so I love to seize on interdisciplinary opportunities. I think a lot of people don't value it because they might not have gotten much out of their own MBA, because again, like everything else in life it is all what you make of it.

The worry that people will not take you seriously as a lawyer or think you'll leave for the business world is a real but entirely overblown concern. As long as you have a narrative for why it adds value to you as an attorney then most people will be on board. It's when people can't answer questions about why they are doing an MBA that problems arise in interviews. I have been asked the MBA question in every interview I've had and it was never a weak point in the interviews.

Quite frankly if I could change law school I would make it two years of law and one year of business because there is just so much to learn on the MBA side as they have so much more geared towards leadership, organizational behavior, management, and other soft skills that would be really value added for lawyers and law firms.

Finally, I think a JD/MBA will become an increasingly valuable degree for individuals as the legal industry is revolutionized by automation and other legal tech because JD/MBAs will have the ability to be a bit more agile in navigating a truly 21st century legal system and hopefully pivot to areas of growth when the time is right.

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Saturday, Jun 13 2015

974

Order of PTs

After starting PTs a couple weeks ago with 36 and going in order from there, I started to wonder what other approaches people take to doing PTs. So for those of you that are in PT mode I was curious about strategy. Does everyone just do them in order and eventually see a decrease in their scores as PTs get harder and then their scores rise again when they adjust? Or are some of you mixing it up a bit and either doing them randomly or deliberately in a different order, but perhaps saving a few of the most recent for right before your real LSAT?

Who has been on a holiday binge with this show? I'd love to hear some thoughts from some future lawyer. How do you think things will play out from here? If you haven't seen it yet, stop what you're doing and hop on Netflix and you'll be hooked!

I am using the most recent version of Chrome (Version 43.0.2357.124) and about a week ago or so I started having issues with the Recent Discussion links on the dashboard page. I can see everything on the dashboard just fine but I can't access any of the discussion board topics from the dashboard. The little white glove still appears to indicate a hyperlink, but nothing happens when I click the topic titles. However, I can access the discussion forum from the top banner and then everything works for me from the main discussion forum page. Is anyone else having similar issues? It's not a huge deal, just thought I'd bring it up because I usually access the forum through comments on the dashboard and now it's not working. Thanks for any help in this matter.

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Wednesday, Nov 11 2015

974

For the veterans out there

Happy Veterans Day to all my brothers and sisters in arms! If any vets out there need help with anything from the LSAT to admissions to educational benefits, I offer a free full hour of one on one assistance either in person or over Skype! Thank you all for your service and have an awesome day!

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974
Wednesday, Apr 11 2018

Book briefing is basically using colored highlighters and some margin notes to brief the case in the casebook rather than writing out the whole brief. For people that do it well it's much faster and you always have the actual language right there to refer to.

I don't know any teachers that cold call only one student. Some teachers just cold call randomly for different questions and take volunteers for others. Some teachers cold call a single person to go through an entire case and then have someone else do another entire case. Some teachers don't believe in cold calling. Some teachers use panels where only certain people are responsible for answering questions in a given class. It's all up to the academic freedom of the professors so there's really nothing you can do about that.

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974
Wednesday, Apr 11 2018

@ said:

Do you recommend case briefing?

There are people who come down on both sides of this. On the one hand, if you take the time to brief every case you encounter you will undoubtedly improve. On the other hand, is that the best use of your time? Well one mode of thinking says, if it makes you better and you're shooting for a $180K starting salary then it's a pretty small investment to brief every case. Other people will say just book brief, but others don't like book briefing. Ultimately it will come down to your personal preference and tolerance for case briefing as well as what your professors are like. If you have all cold-calling sharks you better be doing something to learn the case enough to talk about it especially if there is participation involved. If you have a 100% exam class then don't worry about what goes on in class participation or cold-calling wise, just focus your eyes on the prize. Nobody will remember if you looked stupid once in Torts, but you can take an A to the bank.

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974
Wednesday, Apr 11 2018

@ said:

Do you think ktcools was worth it for uci? Do you think uci fed clerkships and biglaw numbers will increase?

I didn't do KTCOOLS but I believe @ did and can speak to that.

We are still increasing our class size (mine was 140, last year was 160, this year who knows) so clerkships and big law numbers will definitely rise in absolute terms. It will really depend on who we are attracting and what their interests are because the strong public interest focus definitely suppresses the big law numbers relative to other top schools in my opinion. The biggest difference now is that this no longer an unranked law school where people are taking a chance. It's climbed from 30 to 28 to 21 now and so there will invariably be an increasing number of students who come here just because it's the 21st ranked law school and not so much for the reasons that we are proud of like our emphasis on a civil and collaborative community as well as our public interest focus.

Eventually we will get our first SCOTUS clerk someday and I'm sure that will be a big milestone for the program. And we are so young we don't even have partners at big law firms yet, so I'm sure those numbers will increase once we do start to see that happen over the next 5 years or so.

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974
Wednesday, Apr 11 2018

@ said:

It's awesome when former 7Sagers come back here and tell us about law school. Thanks for doing this.

You're welcome! Happy to help!

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974
Wednesday, Apr 11 2018

@ said:

Several Questions:

What would you recommend for reading for our summer prior to law school?

How do you balance your workload and organize your notes?

What types of jobs are you seeing a lot of 1Ls gunning for in the summer? What did you do for your 1L summer?

In general, how much time do you spend studying/how much time should we expect to study for our classes?

If you want to do light law school prep I'd read Getting to Maybe (I did not but others say it's a good bare minimum)... I'm more of the mindset that you don't need to prep and can succeed without it but I've seen prepping work for people so it's really just knowing what you'll be happiest with...

I did 1L as a single dad with two kids while my wife was still stationed across the country. I had the kids in school all day and just treated it as a full time job. I pretty much only did law school from 8-6 Monday-Friday and didn't do law school work on nights or weekends with very rare exceptions for memo/motion writing in the most intense parts of each semester. Prior to getting to UCI I found this thread on TLS: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=162799 which is called Lazy's Guide but it's really all about being as efficient as possible. I highly recommend reading it to give you a sense of what you could do but it takes a lot of discipline. For me it was easy because my kids forced the discipline and helped compartmentalize my life so that the stress of parenting counterbalanced the stress of law school rather than them compounding and making things worse. I did over 50 hours of pro bono my second semester of 1L and my grades dipped a bit given that I had to give up 50 hours of studying but I wouldn't go back and change that.

I am a horrible note taker as I went most of my life without needing to take them so I am a terrible person to ask about notes. Ultimately I think it's best to figure out what the exam is like as early as possible and then structure your notes/outline/attack plan to fit with what you'll need on exam day.

I had some friends snag 1L summer associate gigs at big law firms but those are virtually all diversity fellowships or IP fellowships so this is a really small group and definitely not something you can rely on going in. If you have literally no experience or anything then you've got a lot more pressure to get higher grades if you're trying to go that route, but again it doesn't work out for most people. Additionally, UCI is very public interest focused so a lot of people get various judicial or public interest externships.

I worked at a non-profit legal services organizations that provides services to low-income veterans and their families. It was actually the same place I had done my pro bono and once other summer jobs didn't materialize I transitioned my pro bono into an externship for the summer. It actually ended up working out perfectly because dual degree students here tend to need to overload but by doing externship and other atypical credits then I won't need to overload when I come back to the law school, which is worth its weight in gold.

For the pro bono and externship work I did I specialize in discharge upgrades for veterans with less than honorable discharges and so far I've submitted about a half dozen discharge upgrade briefs to the various boards tasked with reviewing petitions. I did almost 100 hours there over the course of this year while at the business school to help keep my mind somewhat in the legal realm.

I think I outlined my study time pretty well above, but everyone is different. The problem most people have is they don't know when to stop or simply can't stop so they just run themselves into the ground and it just creates a whole host of problems with trying to do the work effectively. There is literally no need to pull all nighters in law school for the regular curriculum (I can't speak to Moot Court or other stuff like that). I wrote in another post that there are a lot of K-JDs and another thing many of them lack is effective time management skills. Law school requires excellent time management so if you have problems with that, it is a rough environment to try to learn time management skills in the moment. It's a steady stream of work for the most part, it's all about just staying on top of it and being able to step away as needed for some self care.

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Thursday, Jun 11 2015

974

Audiobooks to help your RC

I know most people have a pretty hard time with RC and there are a host of issues going on. One issue that I think trips up a lot of people is familiarity. If you were an art history major who hates science, then that passage on chemistry is probably going to suck for you. The opposite is also true, as many of the writings on the humanities or law may be difficult for STEM experts. With all of the work everyone is putting in simply to go through the curriculum, learn the test, drill questions and do PTs, there isn't much time left to follow the common advice to read Science, Nature, The New Yorker, The Economist, etc. So what's an aspiring law student to do? One word: audiobooks. I searched the forum and couldn't find any mention of using them and so I thought I'd offer it as a possible solution for developing familiarity, and it won't even cost you a dime. A few months ago I got my first library card since I was a kid and started checking out a variety of audiobooks to listen to during my commute to work (~60-90 minutes roundtrip). While at first I grabbed whatever was new, or seemed to have an interesting premise, I eventually realized that I should use it to familiarize myself with areas I hadn't studied in a long time. I can't begin to say how much it has helped me on RC, as well as on a small handful of random LR questions that were a bit dense with scientific terminology. Simply passively listening to books on chemistry, cosmology, physics, etc. has helped me read scientific passages more easily, to the point that I now get somewhat excited when science passages come up whereas I used to slog through them. I find it is also much easier to read these passages once you have heard many of the words out loud rather than reading them on your own elsewhere and not knowing what they sound like for sure.

So in the interest of building this thread as a catalog of possible choices of audiobooks to go find at your local library, here are a few I have both enjoyed and found helpful so far:

The Disappearing Spoon And Other True Tales of Madness, Love, and the History of the World from the Periodic Table of the Elements by Sam Kean (very entertaining book about chemistry through the lens of the periodic table, he's also written a couple other books I'm going to hunt down since I like his writing/reading style, they're called The Tale of The Dueling Neurosurgeons, and The Violinist's Thumb)

A Brief History of Time by Stephen Hawking (pretty heady physics and cosmology for casual listening but generally it's amazing)

The Grand Design by Stephen Hawking (a much more accessible and more recent work)

I haven't done this yet but I want to do it before the end of this month, if you go to this link you can download oral arguments from the Supreme Court and then put them on your phone or MP3 player or a CD and then listen which should help with some of those dense law passages we encounter: http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_audio.aspx

If anyone has any other audiobooks or other audio resources to suggest just post them here and I'll add them to this list so everyone can find a quick and consolidated list to help save time while passively learning new things. Good luck everyone and I hope this helps y'all in your prep!

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974
Tuesday, Apr 10 2018

@ said:

Thanks so much for the Logic Games Attack Strategy and for this AMA!

So what is legal writing like compared to writing for something like International Relations?

Do you think doing a journal is worthwhile if it isn't law review? What if it is law review?

Any read on whether clinics and externships prepare you better than the case method?

20 pages a night per class does sound sort of light compared to what I was expecting and even what I have had at times in undergrad. Does that sort of balloon out if you read supplements like E and Es and hornbooks as well as the casebooks? Additionally, were there any supplements you found especially helpful?

What would you recommend for prep as a 0L? I know that the main advice is to focus on learning how to take a law school exam, but it seems to me that I need to have exposure to some substantive law to do that. I was thinking of picking one 1L class(was leaning toward Torts) and studying the substantive material from it before taking a bunch of practice exams for it this summer from schools which have freely accessible test data bases like Berkeley with model answers. Would that in combination with using books like Getting to Maybe and LEEWS book be a good way to get a jump on learning to take a law school exam? If so what doctrinal course would you recommend doing it with? If not, why and what should I do instead? 7sage and your attack strategy have given me a certain faith that any test can be prepared for with enough time and I want to make sure I am as prepared as I can be for my law school exams since there won't be an option to retake.

Finally, I am planning on working on learning to touch type better over the summer. Do you think typing speed played a role in your classmates grades 1L year?

You're welcome! Excited to be back to meet another generation of 7Sagers!

Legal writing is a bit more redundant and dry on the objective writing side (e.g. - legal memos, emails); on the persuasive side (e.g. - motions) it's a little bit more open and you can write with a little more flair given the goal of the writing. Social science writing at the graduate level is grounded in research but writing style is open to an individual's tastes and style. For me it was just a bit constraining, which is for a good reason to establish conformity and common language, but I think we still have a ways to go to modernize legal writing a bit more.

I'm personally anti-law review and only wanted to do it to get the street cred to talk more authoritatively about what a lot of nonsense it is. To me it's just signaling you'll subject yourself to a grind, which I've got more than plenty of on my resume so I didn't need it. If it's your jam then all the more power to you. I'd rather find ways for law students to publish their own works rather than just editing notes for law professors and the like. I don't really have any insight into secondary journals but it would probably depend on what their goal and setup was, but most of what I see across schools doesn't appeal to me.

I'll take practical experience over casebook any day of the week and it is one reason I love UCI because they put a huge emphasis on externships and practical experience (we require every graduate to complete a semester long 6 credit clinic). I think there are good baselines for every lawyer to learn, but the casebook method is a 19th century innovation and I think we should devote more efforts to coming up with new ways of doing things. Of course, once automation and other legal tech fundamentally alter the structure and dynamics of legal practice we will have to redesign law schools to teach the lawyers that can function successfully in that world. The 21st century T14 could look a lot different in 10-20 years if the current T14 doesn't stay on the cutting edge.

I used virtually no supplements all of 1L. The 20 pages was casebook reading. But that's still at least 60 pages total a night or so across all classes, plus whatever is going on in legal writing. The more supplements you read, the more pages you have overall, although I did know some people who just read the top treatise in the subject area and performed all right.

See my above response for 0L prep questions. Do it if you want, but it's not mandatory. I prefer to learn from the people testing me, but everyone is different.

And yes you need to learn to type as fast as possible. It's not necessary in every class but some exams are racehorse exams where no one finishes and word count needs to be high to have a shot at having done as thorough an analysis as others.

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974
Tuesday, Apr 10 2018

@ said:

First off, thanks for your now-famous Pacifico Method. Foolproofing will, in all likelihood, change my life (because of a much high lsat score) and you were a big part of that.

Did you prepare for 1L? Any crumbs of wisdom on this topic?

You're very welcome, happy to help, and congrats on the score!

I bought Getting to Maybe and never had time to read it with moving and everything. I perused a Civ Pro short and happy guide prior to starting but never finished it and it wasn't that helpful in the end. I had a Civ Pro teacher who broke everything down Barney style for the class and so it was really like having someone teach the main takeaways of Getting to Maybe within the confines of a Civ Pro class. I'd have done worse overall if I hadn't had him so I'd say read Getting to Maybe but even then you might not totally understand some of what it says until you're a bit into law school, though you'll feel like you don't have time to read outside materials.

I've seen people prep really well and crush it, and I've seen others not see as big of a return on investment there. Ultimately it's a personal choice, and just know that it is neither necessary nor sufficient to success in law school. In the end if you have a teacher who doesn't hide the ball at all (rare depending on the institution) then prior prep is really not going to add much, but if it's a class where nobody knows what is going on then that's a place I think you can create more value, but you can also get it done without prep.

If it makes you feel better and less anxious, then do it. If you're cool with just learning in law school then forget the prep and enjoy your last bit of freedom for a few months.

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974
Tuesday, Apr 10 2018

@ said:

Hello, thank you for doing this. I read about a month ago that UCI's ranking (USNWR) actually increased by 7 spots. From the inside, what have you heard accounts for this rise? I've always wondered what accounted for such raises/drops.

David

As I mentioned in another thread, I think it's partly based on its rising reputation among other law school professionals that contribute to the rankings, and partly based on a favorable tweak to count school funded fellowships a bit more than they used to in the employment side of the rankings. I haven't done a deep dive comparison on the numbers but I know those are areas that we had room to improve in.

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Tuesday, Apr 10 2018

974

IAMA UCI Law student AMAA

Hey y'all!

After meeting my second 7Sager in the wild at ASW this past weekend (forgot to get a screen name) I thought it was high time to pop back over here and see how things are going and if anyone has any UCI related questions they want to ask me or maybe even @DumbHollywoodActor if he can spare the time during 1L. I'm currently a second year JD/MBA student at UCI; I finished my 1L last May and am in my first full year of business school and have another quarter in the fall before I head back to the law school next spring. I won't go into too much more detail than that to start but I'm happy to answer anything I can about UCI, JD/MBAs, law school with kids (two boys under four), pro bono, externships, OCI, law school as an older/non-traditional student, student government and organizations, law school as a veteran, or whatever else strikes your fancy. I'll try to check in on a regular basis to see what questions y'all have.

And for all the 7Sagers heading this way I can't wait to meet y'all!

If you want to read more ramblings about law school, business school, politics and more, you can also follow me on Twitter here (my DMs are open if anyone ever wants to reach out directly and I check that much more often): https://twitter.com/PacificoSoldati

P.S. - it should go without saying but because this is law school I'll just point out that everything here is solely my opinion and I'm not here on behalf of the school in any official capacity, nor do I speak for them.

Proctor: any questions before we start?

Rando: may I grab a sip of water from my bottle really quick?

Proctor: yes.

Rando: [sips water].

Proctor: anyone else?

Rando: can I grab a sip of water during the test?

Proctor: no.

Rando: during the 5 minute breaks, may I grab a sip of water or eat a handful of nuts?

Proctor: yes.

Me: this dude is going to be sorely disappointed when there are no 5 minute breaks.

End result: Rando drinks water during test at the end of each section after time is called and is not reprimanded for it.

[Facepalm]

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974
Thursday, Aug 05 2021

Some great tips here, though I'd concur with others on the splitting.

If you lock all this down and are still struggling with time, then you should video tape yourself taking an LG section (preferable from overhead).

There's no better way to see how you waste little bits of time that add up to a lot over the course of the section.

It's as powerful as watching recordings of yourself doing public speaking in order to improve.

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Thursday, Jul 02 2015

974

Laser Printer Recommendation

I remember @"J.Y. Ping" makijg a printer recommendation in a comment somewhere but I've been searching high and low and can't find it. I'm sick of this inkjet bullsqueeze and want to get a laser printer but I don't want to end up in a driver war between my printer and MacBook... Any suggestions?

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