User Avatar
katrakkade441
Joined
Apr 2025
Subscription
Free
User Avatar

Wednesday, May 31 2017

katrakkade441

Is Perfecting Logic Games Possible For Me?

Hi,

Would this be the best plan to perfect the logic games by September 15?

Finish the core material as fast as I can. I am 40 percent of the way through and started last Thursday. I'll obviously slow down a little now that I am through a lot of the logical reasoning stuff.

Foolproof games 1-35.

Resume PTing with blind review. I haven't used any of the newest 20 tests. I have the newest book of tests on its way in the mail and will purchase the next ten whenever they come out after the June test. I have used a lot of the other old tests, but may add one of them in directly before or after each of my new practice tests in order to build endurance.

Thanks for any feedback, especially by people who have improved on and ideally nearly perfected logic games. They are my one hangup on the test and thankfully according to 7sage are a weakness that seems fixable.

Context about me and the test:

I am retaking a 172 from the February test in September. For the February test, I studied for about 3 weeks predominantly by PTing and have been intermittantly since. Logical reasoning is very intuitive to me. I miss an average of one in the two sections on each test. Reading comprehension is similar, though I miss a few more (about 1-3 in the one section). Logic games I can get the right answers with sufficient time, but struggle to finish. I did not complete the last game during my test in February guessing blindly on the last 2 questions and close to blindly on the preceding ones from that game. I really haven't got better or worse by practice testing and reviewing (but not blind reviewing) since February(however I did discover 7sage through the logic games explanations). I average 173 with the vast majority of errors on logic games.

User Avatar
katrakkade441
Thursday, Jan 31 2019

@ said:

@oshun1 said:

I think the most important question is how are you surviving the polar vortex!!

Jesus you're right. lol. Things to consider before applying to Michigan

I'm a Michigan native so fine.

The university cancelled school here for two days and hadn't cancelled a day since 2015. I think they are just getting caught up in mass hysteria.

The days off are a nice break from readings, but is frustrating because we were supposed to have a Meet the Employers event where people from 60 firms came tonight. That is cancelled and will be hard to make up.

User Avatar
katrakkade441
Tuesday, Jan 29 2019

@ said:

At a top notch, world-premier law school like yours, isn't your GPA median? or maybe slightly under median? I thought anything above 3.0 at a T14 school was good enough for biglaw and what not. I know you're not pleased with your grades but they sound pretty darn good on the surface. I mean these are not high school algebra classes!

Slightly under median. The median for 1Ls is basically a B+ or about a 3.33. I'm pretty much at a 3.2 because of the one B.

What grades will position you well for Big Law really varies by school. As I understand it, firms don't really care about your GPA. They care about your school and how you are positioned relative to the rest of your class.

It might be good enough for Big Law. It's hard to say. It probably would have been in some recent years. However, it definitely would have been kind of dicey during the recession. We can't really know what the future holds.

However, I think it is most likely that my grades won't guarantee or shut me out of Big Law. That means things like work experience, luck, and interviewing ability will play important roles. It would be nicer to feel a little more secure.

And hardly anyone really wants to be a little below average when we are almost all used to being solidly above average.

User Avatar

Friday, Apr 27 2018

katrakkade441

Harvard Waitlist Guidelines

I don't know whether I would attend Harvad Law or not if admitted off the waitlist. Harvard sent me an email with the following guidelines asking me to remove myself if I cannot agree to accept a position if offered off the waitlist.

"By remaining active on the waitlist you agree to:

-Accept an offer of admission if it is extended to you; we will ask that you accept the offer of admission within 24 hours.

-Accept the offer before you have received any information about your financial aid package at HLS. Please keep in mind our financial aid packages are need-based and therefore are not affected by the admissions timeline—packages for waitlist admits are determined in exactly the same way as those admitted earlier in the cycle.

-Accept the offer before you have a chance to secure housing. Historically this has not been a problem since three housing options (HLS dorms, Harvard University Housing, and the private Cambridge housing market) typically remain very active throughout the summer.

-Withdraw your seat at any school to which you have committed if offered admission at HLS.

-While this process is very time-sensitive, please understand that we operate on this timeline in order to get our waitlist admits fully situated before classes begin in the fall. If you have concerns about the above guidelines, or if you have new information about your plans for this fall that prevents you from remaining on the waitlist, please visit your status checker and complete the waitlist withdrawal form. If you are comfortable with these guidelines and wish to remain active on the waitlist, then no action is required at this time."

I don't think they have any way to enforce this guideline. I'm generally predisposed to oppose the creation of unenforcable guidelines or rules. However, I don't want to be on the waitlist in bad faith.

I will be attending University of Michigan Law School with a $150,000 Dean's Scholarship unless I end up attending Harvard (or Yale which I have not heard back from). I think this is an option worthy of being undecided about whether to attend Harvard.

User Avatar

Tuesday, Jul 25 2017

katrakkade441

Posting Personal Statements

The potential free personal statement edit for the webinar got me wondering. What are the potential drawbacks of posting your personal statement online to get advice?

I am not all that worried about my personal statement being exposed as mine, though the possibility could merit some slight censorship of any details about my school or location.

For me, the main concern that I can think of would be that it could be plagarized or that elements could be copied. This might make it less unique. Is that just paranoid? If it is, why do most people try to get edits via swaps rather than posting them?

Are there other drawbacks I am not thinking of? What are they?

User Avatar

Friday, Aug 25 2017

katrakkade441

Bizarre Flip in Section Scores

For months now I have been scoring virtually perfectly on logical reasoning, missing 1 to 3 questions on reading and endeavoring to avoid all out disaster on logic games.

I have been progressing through the tests and took PT's 70 and 71 this morning. I recieved a 175 and 176 respectively. The overall score was fine. I'm retaking a 172 and a 175 or 176 is about the neighborhood of score that I am hoping for.

The strange part was that on both tests I was perfect on Games and Reading. All my mistakes came on LR. I just had my best ever logic games and reading comp combination on a test and then sat down and did it again. But both times I ended up right in my normal range overall because I had my worst logical reasoning test in months twice in a row.

Anyways, I caught most of the logical reasoning mistakes in blind review. But, at this point I'm suddenly no longer confident of a couple point increase over my 172. It feels like I could get anything from a score lower than a 170 up to a 180. After all, my LR's could return to their norm and the logic games could maintain this new level or my games could return to their norm and my LR sections could stay in their slump from today.

Maybe tests 70 and 71 were different? Maybe I was in the mood for games? I'll see what it's like tommorow.

I was really planning to cram in as many PT's as I can through this weekend and just prep by reviewing them while I'm in school which starts next week for me. So there isn't much time for much of a fix other than to review all of the LR problems with even more attention.

Has anyone else experienced such a flip in which sections are their strengths? How did you settle it if you did?

User Avatar
katrakkade441
Saturday, Feb 22 2020

@ said:

I read a comment on here of someone scoring 172&180 and having a 3.81 and still getting a few rejections (as well as some great acceptances!). I don't know their fully story/application at all of course, just read that one comment. But it definitely feels like there are no guarantees.

That would be me(I assume there isn't another person fitting that description), I have been kind of busy to come back to comment as much as I was for a while, but I just happened to come back and see this comment.

I ended up taking a $150,000 dollar scholarship to U of M(Michigan is my home state where I plan to stay). I also got in to Columbia(Not much aid), Duke(matched U of M), and WUSTL(independently offered $150,000 which was full tuition for them, but not for Duke or Michigan).

Stanford and I think Harvard rejected me. I was waitlisted everywhere else in the Top 14 including Yale. I gave a token effort to get off the waitlist at Yale and didn't try anywhere else.

The waitlists were probably yield protection, but you can get by those if you write letters of continued interest and probably can avoid them better than I did by spending more time writing convincing Why X essays.

And my GPA obviously wasn't above 75th everywhere. MYLSN seemed to be the best prediction resource when I applied. I'd also go to law school numbers and sort by LSAT and look at what percentage of the people with each score/GPA are getting what scholarships.

https://mylsn.info/r/pre-law/admissions/search/

But the overall moral of the story is that you are probably set for getting in with some money if you can get above median and definitely above 75th.

If you do get an above 75th LSAT, then you should to look school by school if you want to see how competitiive the full tuition scholarships, like the Darrow, the Rubenstein, (NYUs list of different ones) etc are. If you can get one of those options they may be a better value than a spot at Harvard, Yale, or Stanford which only give out need based aid and not very much at that.

@keets993 @eRetaker

I'm writing this because I promised to and because the internet has a sort of strong response bias where only those who do well to report back on their experience.

I ended up with a B in Civil Procedure, a B+ in Constitutional Law, and a B+ in Torts for a total of a 3.2.

As a consequence, it is a little bit hard for me to claim that I know what helped me and what didn't with regards to how I prepared before or throughout the semester.

My 0L prep: I bought E and Es for Tort law and Contracts since I didn't know what classes I would have. Once I found out I focused mainly on the Torts E and E. I also listened to the Sum and Substance audio lectures for torts. My goal was to be able to take practice tests early in the semester in at least one class. I read Getting to Maybe. I also learned to touch type over the summer before law school.

Preparation during the semester: I was fairly busy just reading and rereading the texts, as well as outlining. As a consequence, I did not begin taking practice tests any where near as early in the semester as I had hoped. However, I still ended up going through quite a few. My Torts professor made all of his past exams available. I took all of them, using their model answers and comparing answers to some of them with my peers. In Constitutional Law, I took the three practice exams which my professor made available as well as others from other professors. In Civil Procedure my professor did not give us an old exam so I tried other professor's exams and also just spent a lot of time going over my class notes and re-reading cases as well as looking at other people's outlines who had taken him and trying to incorporate any nuggets of their wisdom into my own outline and memory.

What I think probably worked?

First of all, it is pretty clear that not much worked very well.

Typing Practice: I would say that learning touch typing was very important to me not doing substantially worse. It is hard to make any claims for sure, but in Civil Procedure where we did not have a word limit most people seemed to have typed a lot. I felt like mine was on the short side, but probably more because I never felt like I had a great grasp on the material no matter how much I studied. I would not have wanted to compound that by also having had to struggle to literally type the exam. Most of my fellow students seem to type faster than me(I now type about 70 words per minute max and probably more like 50 when I am composing the sentences rather than just copying). However, at a certain point I am sure there are diminishing marginal returns on investment in typing. I think that it is worth learning to touch type before law school if you don't know how. I further think that whenever you type notes up for an outline or work on a legal practice assignment you should consciously maintain this skill.

Substantive 1L prep:

I had read the E and E and listened to the sum and substance lectures on Torts before 1L. I felt much more comfortable in that class. I also had a fairly good exposure to American history and the Constitution before 1L which I think led me to be fairly comfortable in Constitutional Law. In contrast, I felt lost and adrift for most of the semester in Civil Procedure. As a consequence of this, I struggled through Civil Procedure readings and instead of using the time which I had saved in Torts and Constitutional Law to practice exam taking early in the semester, I spent it on trying to understand Civil Procedure. Consequently, I don't really think that the 0L prep ended up helping me all that much. However, if someone were to actually dedicate themselves to it and then to practice exam taking once in law school, I think that it could help.

Non-substantive 1L Prep:

While the prevailing view is that reading Getting to Maybe is about the only thing that you should do prior to law school, I think that is pretty much backwards. I read Getting to Maybe and listened to the LEEWS audio tapes over the summer. It was basically impossible to practice anything in them without having something to practice on. This meant that I don't think that I necessarily gained all that much from them. I think that they are more useful once you actually have something to apply them to.

My Recommendations based on my 1L experience:

0L Prep: I think that if I were to decide how to prep for 1L again, I would read supplements for all of my 1L classes(or just the first semester classes if I knew what they were early enough). I wouldn't be trying to learn everything perfectly since you don't know if your prof and casebook are going to agree on every element of a tort with your supplement. However, I would try to get the gist. I would go through the E and E questions and such.

If I couldn't touch type, I would definitely still dedicate some time to working on that.

1L prep: I would do the readings and outlining and all the other normal 1L stuff. However, I would hopefully do it a little faster and more easily. I would try not to worry about cold calls or really focus on them. I also would as I think I did, still participate a fair bit in class and attend office hours regularly. Having a relationship with the professor is important even though grading is blind.

Mainly, I would try to practice exam taking very early, taking about 1 exam per class every week rather than trying to cram them in at the end as I ended up doing. (This semester, that is basically what I am going to try to do, except that I need to read the supplements while doing my work for each class, while applying for jobs(which is a little more frantic with my grades), and still won't be able to start any practice exams for at least a month.

Other Lessons Here:

First of all, my law school related advice obviously is not that of an expert and all the old guides and stuff from TLS are probably better.

Second, it really is true at least in my experience that LSAT has very little ability to predict your grades. I had LSAT high of 180 on my retake which is of course pretty much as above the median as you can get. From the beginning of class, I have nonetheless found my peers to be every bit as smart and as hardworking as me which is pretty much as I expected. They just for whatever reason either were not as good at the LSAT or alternatively didn't put as much of a systematic effort into improving on the LSAT as 7sage enabled me to. That worked to my benefit by ensuring that I got my scholarship and therefore have a tolerable level of debt if I either chose not to try to get Big Law or if by virtue of grades and other circumstances(for example a recession) I end up not exactly having a choice in the matter.

So don't go to a school thinking that you will be able to get good grades based on an above median LSAT or work ethic and that those grades will make the experience worthwhile. Go if because of a combination of your drive to be a lawyer and how good a financial deal you can get, you will be happy with your decision even if you end up with below median grades and maybe a below median(financially) career outcome.

I'm still happy with my decision to come here and will be as long as I end up with some legal job because with basically any job(as long as I find one) I can pay back my small debt pretty quick. If I like said job, I can stick with it and have opened a door that was not available to me before law school. If not, I won't be trapped in that job or the law forever or even for more than a couple years. Additionally, while I felt like I was struggling in Civ Pro, I have generally liked being in law school because the classes have been interesting and at least at Michigan the people have by and large been very friendly and nice. I have made friends who I hope to have for life and am overall very happy to be here.

That brings us to the last point:

Some of you may have heard of the notable exception to the general niceness of the people at Michigan Law School. https://abovethelaw.com/2018/12/law-school-student-mocks-the-disabled-because-why-not/

https://www.reddit.com/r/LawSchool/comments/a8h96r/dont_be_this_stupid/

This student has lost the respect of everyone in the law school who knew who he was(and law schools especially Michigan where a large share of the 1L class stays in the Lawyer's Club are pretty close knit communities). He probably would have trouble transferring since the Dean would certainly tell any other school that asked of the situation if asked why he was transferring down or parallel. Therefore, he is likely very much alone and deservedly so. Having got my own generally discouraging grades today, I can tell you that it is the friendships with classmates which make them tolerable. So if you happen to have vile and unmerited negative feelings about your classmates at whatever school you eventually attend, you should get some help, you should not drink to excess, you should not tell people about them other than a counselor, and you should definitely not send out an email to the whole school disparaging students who are part of your community.

The school is taking some actions in response, but has generally dealt with it quietly(perhaps because they are worried about publicity or perhaps because they are worried about the student's mental health and substance abuse problem). They are also taking positive steps. At 4 today we have a(previously scheduled speaker) for Martin Luther King Jr. day which is focused in part on disabilities and there is a mandatory event on Friday.

If anyone has any questions about Michigan Law, 1L, 0L prep, or my experience in law school so far, feel free to ask. Obviously I am pretty busy and am going to get more busy as a result of my need to improve my grades and expand my job search. I justified taking the time to post this on the basis that I was too stressed out by seeing my grades to get much done for a couple hours anyway. However, I will check back and respond to any questions sooner or later.

User Avatar

Thursday, Jun 21 2018

katrakkade441

Michigan Law Class Bigger Than Expected

Michigan Law emailed us to say they had a higher than typical yield on their admission offers and are offering students the chance to automatically defer any scholarships for a year rather than reviewing decisions on a case by case basis.

If anyone is still riding the Michigan waitlist, this is probably bad news. If they are trying to get accepted students to defer, they probably won't be accepting many more people if any off the waitlist.

User Avatar
katrakkade441
Wednesday, Feb 20 2019

Update:

So, I found an unpaid public interest job. I don't want to go into too much detail about it because one of the best parts about this job is I don't have to decide whether or not to take it for several more months.

This is great because it lets me keep looking for other jobs while having a back up option I still would enjoy.

I'm also applying to some part time LSAT tutoring jobs for the summer in the area of the public interest job. That option either before or during law school is another excellent reason (other than maximizing the quality of your legal education and getting scholarships to minimize the cost) to spend a lot of time studying the for LSAT here and to practice by helping teach others for free.

Speaking of unpaid/low paid options, Michigan's clinics need people over the summer too. They take Michigan students first and then usually have extra openings and open up to other schools so they are a pretty safe option if you are worried about finding something. I know a few people who applied to them in case they don't get something soon. Interviews are next week though and after that you might have to make a decision so it can be a matter of whether you want to gamble and wait for something (you personally consider) better or jump on a good thing while you can.

According to the career advisors not too many people end up on the wrong side of waiting too long to lower their standards though. They say that apart from a couple students who are busy and in dual degree programs, everyone at Michigan gets some legal job(often unpaid) for their 1L summer which is what you need to keep pace with everyone else.

User Avatar
katrakkade441
Wednesday, Feb 20 2019

@oshun1 said:

Super use useful info in your comment above re $$ and jobs!

Michigan WL’d me, i’m gonna visit at the end of February!

If you private message me when you are coming, I would be happy to meet up if I can.

User Avatar
katrakkade441
Thursday, Oct 17 2019

https://mylsn.info/zp3qcg/

You can fill in more things if you want to get a slightly better prediction. I just used the default settings and your GPA and LSAT score.

How much did you study for the LSAT? Did you get a perfect score on the logic games section?

Because of your excellent GPA, if you could get a few more points on the LSAT there are a lot of schools where it would make a huge difference to your liklihood of getting in and your liklihood of getting a big scholarship.

https://mylsn.info/nf1z44/

User Avatar

Saturday, Feb 17 2018

katrakkade441

University of Michigan Email

Hey, many people across the internet have been getting their acceptences or waitlists from U of M recently. I was sparked by this to double check my email.

I just found out a few hours ago that 3 days ago on Valentine's Day I was accepted into University of Michigan. The email came from law.jd.admissions@umich.edu, but for some reason didn't make it past my email's filters. I recommend double checking your email or status checker. I'll certainly be keeping an even closer eye on them from now on.

User Avatar
katrakkade441
Thursday, Oct 17 2019

@ said:

Can I ask what your GPA and LSAT was to get that big of a scholarship at Michigan?

I went straight through. So I had a 3.81 when they admitted me and when they extended the scholarship offer and a 3.84 when I graduated.

I took the LSAT twice getting a 172 initially and then a 180 after foolproofing logic games and blind reviewing almost all of the practice tests.

User Avatar
katrakkade441
Thursday, Oct 17 2019

@ said:

No question but wanted to pop in and say Go Blue! (and good luck!)

Go blue!

User Avatar
katrakkade441
Wednesday, Oct 16 2019

@ said:

Thanks so much for posting this @ ! I've been researching into different law schools' programs and I noticed that Michigan has an extensive list of clinical programs. I know you are just starting your second year so you may not have had exposure to the clinical programs but if you do have such experience I was hoping to hear about them.

I haven't taken a clinic yet, but I do plan on it even though I have the part time job now. If you bid on two clinics for all four semesters after 1 L, you are guaranteed one.

I know many people in clinics and it seems like they are a great way to get very closely supervised experience. Michigan's number of clinics mean you can probably get something in whatever area you want.

My criminal law professor directs the Michigan Innocence Clinic which just had an event a few days ago where someone they had exonerated came and spoke.

User Avatar
katrakkade441
Wednesday, Oct 16 2019

@ said:

3L big law hunting is hard but it's worth a try.

despite bidding the least grade selective firms that I could and focussing heavilly on Michigan firms where my ties should have been appealing

I'd like to point out to future bidders for U of M that limiting yourself to Michigan is not doing yourself any favors. U of M places heavily in NY.

A few questions on your OCI experience:

Did you do mock interviews?

Any thoughts on why you didn't get any callbacks?

How did your classmates do?

How has career services supported you post OCI?

if I wanted Big Law, I would have been better off aggressively applying to lots of firm jobs as a 1L.

No harm in aiming for a 1L SA position but they are extremely difficult to land outside diversity and IP (not to say they are easy to get from either of those groups).

Sorry this is long winded, but I'm a faster typer now and don't have time to edit it.

1L Big Law positions are much rarer.

However, almost everyone counts as diversity for law firms. You can apply to diversity positions if you are a first generation law student, any non-white race, female, gay, certain religions ect. So for me, I'm a first generation law student even though my mom has a PhD and my dad two Master's degrees. My dad is from India, which like most Asian countries is a disadvantage in undergraduate admissions and roughly neutral in law school admissions.

So, it feels awkward because we think of diversity as helping groups that are discriminated against, but firms use it in a much broader sense.

Most 1Ls I knew didn't apply for a lot of firm positions because we knew they were rare and there is no streamlined process like with OCI. However, a surprising number of those who did got one. Many of those who got them got them before grades came out from first semester. That takes almost all of the risk out of it, if you can do it. It's hard to apply to many because you are so busy during 1L, but if you came in with a couple versions of cover letters ready, went over your resume with your counselor earlier than most do and maybe had tried to make a list of firms with diversity positions ahead of time, I think a student at Michigan could probably have a fair shot at landing one. It will be even more plausible now that the start date for applying has changed. At the very least you get more interviewing practice earlier.

On applying mostly in the small market your school is in with ties to the market

There were roughly 30 people in my class aiming for Big Law jobs in Michigan. Of those, maybe 25 had really good ties to Michigan. Most of those have firm positions lined up, but it is hard to tell exactly how many and outside of my super section, I don't have any idea what their grades were.

I think my bidding strategy was fine. However, a couple more big grade unselective New York firms at the top of my list might have been good and I still sould have got most of my Michigan bids.

On OCI

1). I did three mock interviews. I did one with a New York firm that visited during 1L and did mock interviews. They didn't give much feedback though. The other two I did with OCP. They gave a lot of feedback about how to frame different answers and how to structure a response to the situational questions.

As far as why I didn't get call backs, I think there were two main reasons.

First, I don't think I interview very well. My voice tends to get quiet during conversations when I'm nervous.

Additionally, while I don't think I over-practiced for interviews I probably steered things back to me and my credentials and what I was prepared to talk about too much rather than just going with the flow of the conversation. A lot of people I know who got offers talked about rather random things in their interview which led to a job. The hobbies or interests section of your resume definitely better be something you are prepared to start an interesting conversation about. For a single line, it gets a lot of focus.

How did my class mates do? That's always hard to say. I had a really strong small core friend group that I was always going to know what happened with their employment. Of those 5, everyone got a Big Law job except me. One had grades higher than median. One had compable grades to me(a little below median). I don't know about the other two's grades exactly, but don't think their grades were stratospheric. 3 of those got their job through OCI and one shortly after.

I know one person who is still looking for a Big Law job. We were expressing our angst together about not having found a job until I did.

I know a bunch who found Big Law jobs, but don't know if I would have known if they hadn't.

Overall, I don't think the economy is hurting our placement much yet. However, several firms did tell me they were interviewing for fewer spots than the year before.

Post OCI, I have been in regular contact with OCP. They have given me access to some resources and the job I found was through Symplicity, but they haven't been great. If you come in asking for something specific like them doing a mock interview, going over your resume, going over your bid list, reading over a new cover letter, putting you in contact with a 3L or an alumni, they are great. But if you come in sort of uncertain, they don't do as much.

They have continued to have firms come to campus. And I have interviewed for some of those positions with as few as 5 total people from Michigan interviewing when there were more slots available. So my fellow students probably are not generally that desperate.

I also had the bad luck to have three different main counselors because both of my first two found other jobs. I think that was more of a fluke than anything.

As far as 3L Big Law positions, I probably would have some shot at them since I will have some sort of firm experience. However, I wanted a Big Law job because they generally offer their 2Ls real jobs at a higher rate, not because of the money. I have kept my debt really low and this partime job will help keep it lower. So while a Big Law salary would be nice, I'm not going to switch to a job that I probably won't like that much and will voluntarilly or otherwise leave after only a few years if I think I'll be happy at this smaller firm and they give me an offer at the end of next summer. Obviously, I'll have plenty of time to see if I like the people.

User Avatar
katrakkade441
Wednesday, Oct 16 2019

@ said:

Thank you for doing this. I remember reading your posts. Looking back-and hindsight is always 20/20- is there anything you would have done differently going into law school? For instance, there is a debate about what one should try to learn the summer before 1L, substantively, would you do anything differently? What did you do to prep? I believe I remember you saying you read: Getting To Maybe. Do you recommend a 0L looking at any commercial outlines?

I read Getting to Maybe. I also read most of an Examples and Explanations for Torts.

If I had to do it again, I might do more substantive prep and read E and E's or other supplements for all the 1 L subjects. I wouldn't memorkze them or study doctrine or anything, but would just read them so I had a idea of where all my classes were going. I think that could help with outlining and also make it easier to start taking practice exams sooner.

User Avatar
katrakkade441
Friday, Mar 15 2019

@ said:

Thank you, @ : I hear you! But I guess what I'm asking (and I've tried to post this question about other sections too), does it really matter which PTs we are studying? In other words, why is it better to foolproof Games 1-35, as opposed to Games 36-70? As long as we foolproof a shit ton of games? Anyone?

The main reason to foolproof 1-35 is to leave the newer game sections available for fresh PTs which better predict your actual score and guage your improvement. Since the other sections have changed a little too you would really prefer to take your PTs on the newer tests as much as you can.

When you take a PT you want to use sections entirely from the same test and want them to be fresh if possible so you can look at the score table and find out what your score would have been.

Once you have taken a PT though there is no reason not to foolproof its games.

You want to leave quite a few of these newer game sections for PTs in part because you don't know if you might end up retaking and needing more new PTs available and because they are a really valuable learning tool so you want to take quite a few. Full PTs also better mimic the stress of the test than just practicing one section at a time so you want to take plenty of them.

I'm sure their are old threads on this, but the old games are still similar to new ones. There are a couple more really idiosynchratic older games that don't really fall into a current category. However, games that don't perfectly fit have been popping up again more lately after a long period where it was just the standard game types.

User Avatar
katrakkade441
Tuesday, Oct 15 2019

@ said:

Thanks for this! And congrats on making it this far without a mountain of debt!!!

If you could go back and approach landing a public interest opportunity differently, what would you do? Do you feel like you used all of Michigan’s resources for students interested in pursuing public interest work?

I think it worked out well. I won't be making enough next summer to have to pay back any of the loan. Additionally, not many people get to go on the record in court defending clients their first summer.

I probably could have taken better advantage of resources if I'd known what I wanted to do. I really just wanted to get a taste of litigation though and definitely got that.

However, if I wanted Big Law, I would have been better off aggressively applying to lots of firm jobs as a 1L. Getting one of these early enough insulates you from your grades since they'll probably ask you back for another summer and ultimately hire you unless your grades are truly awful.

Really, I think anyone with a more specific goal in mind than mine which was basically find some way to get a legal job that will make me happy could do better for themselves by gunning for a good position as a 1L before grades matter as much and potentially before any are even in.

If someone wanted to be a public defender or do criminal defense privately my job was basically the best public interest job they could get.

I think figuring out more of what you actually want to do within law before law school could really let someone take advantage of the 1L summer job search.

User Avatar

Tuesday, Oct 15 2019

katrakkade441

Michigan 2L AMA

University of Michigan 2L AMA

About me:

To make a long story short...

7 Sage and specifically the Pacifico Attack Strategy helped me make a good LSAT score great which enabled me to get a $50,000 a year scholarship to the Top 14 school in my home state of Michigan as a KJD.

https://classic.7sage.com/discussion/#/discussion/2737/logic-games-attack-strategy/p1

1L year, I received some fairly ordinary grades which were slightly below median while enjoying learning from some excellent professors and with my extraordinary peers some of whom I consider among my closest friends.

I was not sure if I wanted to pursue a public interest path or seek a firm job. So I applied to some firm positions in a kind of half-hearted way and didn't even get an interview. The first unpaid public interest job that I applied to, a job at the local Public Defender's office, immediately gave me a spot with no request whatsoever for grades or an interview. In part, because you can represent clients on the record in court in Michigan with the Public Defender's Office, I took the job. I financed my summer with a $4000 loan available to all 1Ls that I would only have to repay if I made a certain amount of money combined in my two summers.

At the end of summer, I went through Early Interview Week and despite bidding the least grade selective firms that I could and focussing heavilly on Michigan firms where my ties should have been appealing and interviewing with 25 firms(the max for our EIW), I received 0 call backs.

Since then, I have continued to apply to firms and cold-emailed many with minimal success.

I had only received any further interviews through OCI which has continued to have smaller firms and employers visit our campus.

However, I recently applied to a clerkship position during the academic year with a small firm in the area on Symplicity where employers can post job openings. After sending a follow up email, they immediately offered me an interview later in the week. After the interview which I thought went well, they offered me a position(paid, relatively sparsely compared to Big Law) during the academic year and the upcoming summer. I immediately accepted.

If that eventually turns into a real job, I'll count law school as a success because I have kept my debt pretty low(both through the scholarship and by commuting from my family home now) and will be able to pay it off with even a moderate salary. Within a year or so, I'll have paid off my debt as long as I'm making some money. So, I won't be trapped by debt and will hopefully be a happy lawyer.

That basically brings us to the present.

Ask Me Anything: I'll answer if it doesn't reveal my identity too much more than I already have.

User Avatar

Thursday, Sep 14 2017

katrakkade441

Taking the September Test Sick

Hi,

I'm scheduled to retake the LSAT on Saturday. I initially scored a 172 in February after 3 weeks of study interrupted by having my wisdom teeth yanked. Early in the summer I made the decision to retake and fool proofed the logic games(my weakest section) to the best of my ability. I was relatively happy with this decision and felt I had a good chance of squeezing a few more points out of the test until yesterday.

I woke up with a sore throat, spent the day sneezing and coughing, ran a mild fever, and vomitted during the night. I have previously largely found that practice testing in sub-optimal conditions tired, hungry, with distractions, on pain medication after my wisdom teeth were pulled has not significantly affected my results and I feel a little better this morning so my question is two fold.

First, should I take the test even if I am still sick the morning of?

Second, does anyone have any tips for managing a cold or the flu while taking the LSAT?

User Avatar
katrakkade441
Sunday, Jul 12 2020

I did and it worked. I went from not being able to complete the section to usually getting it perfect, but struggling with time every once in a while after foolproofing 1-35.

I then foolproofed newer games from exams I had already taken and continued to decrease how often I couldn't finish the section.

1-35 took me about two months. After I somewhat improved, I started using the Pacifico method instead of printing 10 games.

I did a section of new games every week day. I'd complete them once trying to finish in 35 minutes, but taking longer if needed. Then I watched the explanation videos. Then I did them again. If that wasn't done within 35 minutes or if I particularly struggled with an individual game, I would watch the video(s) again and repeat.

Then I would retake the section from the last day of LG practice(I did this every week day, did PTs and blind review on Saturdays, and rested on Sundays).

And I would also retake those from the week before.

If in any case I couldn't complete the section in 35 minutes I watched the explanations and took the section again.

I didn't, but you could do games from 4 weeks before too if it takes long enough.

Don't cheat yourself. You will remember some of the correct answers, but you need to be able to prove every answer in the allowed time.

Anyways, this works out to doing a minimum of 4 sections of games a day(1 twice and 2 other sections from a week and month before). So it is basically like a PT of just logic games every day. That takes 45 days of logic games practice with the first and last weeks being lighter. If you do that 5 days a week, it takes 9 weeks.

I scheduled it out ahead of time in an excel document that I printed and checked off when I completed each game. I also printed 4 copies of each game and put them in two massive binders with a plastic sleeve for each game that way I only had to make copies if I was slow on a repeated section (times may have changed for this w/ the digital LSAT).

I wouldn't push it much faster than that to avoid burning out on games. That means August 31st would be cutting it pretty close and wouldn't leave you much time to do anything other than the foolproofing and some weekend PTs.

User Avatar

Sunday, Mar 11 2018

katrakkade441

Potential Michigan People Hangout

If University of Michigan is still alive in your cycle, post here if you get any interesting pieces of information which will help the rest of us make our final decision.

I've been noticing a bunch of Michigan love in the comments across 7sage and I'll admit I might be noticing it because I'm leaning Michigan right now with my offers as they are.

I'm also planning on attending the first ASW and will post any interesting things I find out then here.

User Avatar
katrakkade441
Sunday, Feb 10 2019

Everyone's job search is progressing. I know some people with summer clerkships, some with firm jobs lined up, and some of the more public interest dedicated students who already have that type of position lined up.

Most of us however, are moving on from applying to 1L firm sommer associate positions to unpaid public interest positions.

That makes it a good time to discuss summer financial aid.

I think Michigan's setup makes a lot of sense. There are competitive $6000 grants you can apply for if you commit to public interest. If not, everyone has access to a $4000 summer loan. The loan has to be paid back during your third year after your second summer, but is forgiven if you make little enough money over the two summers.

If you make less than $18,000 over the two summers you don't pay anything back. If you make $18,000 you pay back $2,000. There is then a sliding scale with you paying back all $4,000 if you make more than $20,000 over the two summers.

Since most Michigan students work big firm positions 2L summer, most of the loans are paid back. This enables them to keep running the program. They also have an even stronger incentive to help us get those positions.

However, if you decide to go into a public interest position the second summer (and probably for your career) then you don't have to pay it back even if you make a little money over the summer either in your public interest job or in some side-gig.

I'm nots ure what other schools do, but it is certainly worth looking into. Most 1L jobs are unpaid and since you need to get some legal experience during the summer that means there is a very significant chance you will be working without pay. That means you must either have your own savings, work part time at a paid job that is not law related, live on less than your full cost of attendance during the academic year(some schools inflate said number to help students do this) to save money for the summer, live with family, or rely on institutional support.

I'll probably be doing the last two if what I think are my most likely job opportunities pan out.

User Avatar
katrakkade441
Sunday, Feb 10 2019

@ said:

Realized I forgot to reply to this. Thanks so much for coming back @ and sharing your experience.

I love these stories because they remind you that there is life after lsat and that it is only a test, which is something that gets lost in the frenzy of it.

Good luck this semester, you're gonna kill it. Imo, law school exams are a matter of grasping a new skill set, just like the lsat is. But that could just be my ignorance 😅. Be sure to come back and keep us updated 😁

I think you probably are right about the exams being a skill that is improvable like the LSAT. The difference is that you have exactly the same amount of time to improve the skill as everyone else and are trying similarly hard.

People don't generally put as much time and effort as they should into the LSAT which makes it a unique opportunity. Take advantage while you can.

User Avatar
katrakkade441
Sunday, Feb 10 2019

@ said:

I'm debating whether I should run a marathon during my first semester of law school.

Is it feasible? Would it interfere with my grades? For those of you who have done it, how did you manage?

I'm a 1l and know someone in my class training for one in the summer. They don't seem like they are being bothered.

I haven't trained for anything on that scale before, but my sense is that with any exercise in law school it is important to make it part of your routine or it just sort of gets lost.

And whether it's the marathon or not some sort of routine exercise is probably healthy for you and will help keep your mind sharp.

User Avatar
katrakkade441
Wednesday, Dec 09 2020

@ said:

following up. were you able to get a biglaw summer associateship for your 2l summer?

I did not. I worked at the small local firm that I was already working at part time during the school year. I worked there during the summer, mostly remotely, but going in once or twice a week, I am working there part-time again during this school year. I am very happy there, like the poeple, and given my lack of substantial debt, would be happy to stay there. That said, they have not extended a formal offer yet, so I am applying to other jobs including through our OCI meet-the-employers week which is held through Zoom. However, few of the firms interview 3L's relative to 2L's. The counselors assure me that the number of jobs in smaller firms and public interest opportunities in Michigan that we can apply to through our job board on Symplicity will increase in the Spring relative to now.

I don't have a great sense of how many of my peers have jobs. It was my feeling that the majority who wanted summer positions through OCI got them. However, at least some were cancelled or shortened during the pandemic and so fewer than normal may result in actual job offers after graduation.

User Avatar
katrakkade441
Tuesday, Feb 05 2019

@ said:

There is not much that makes me feel old, but threads with significant discussion of learning to type is one of them. I guess everyone did not take typing in high school, on actual type writers. Long live the 80s!

Most young people have the opposite reaction and are shocked someone could go so long in the modern world typing poorly and not having taken an effective typing class in elementary, middle, or high school.

Some of us just slip through the educational cracks and then stare at our hands the rest of our lives. But it's a pretty easy skill to pick up so we are not resigned to our fate.

User Avatar
katrakkade441
Monday, Feb 04 2019

@ said:

@ Thank you so much for this valuable post! I also plan on learning to tough type efficiently for 0L prep. Do you mind sharing your practices/ any websites or tools that you utilized in order to grasp it well? Thank you again!

Sure. I bought a keyboard cover for my laptop and painted over the keys on it with black nail polish so I couldn't see the keys. It wears off eventually, but you can just repaint them on.

Then I used the free lessons at typingclub.com. After I hadthe keys generally down I used 10fastfingers and typeracer.

I also left the keyboard cover on whenever I typed anything although if something really important had come up early on, I always could have simply removed it.

This is the on aspect of my 0l prep that I think definitely was worthwhile. Even if it hadn't made a difference on exams it would still have been worth it. We are going to write a lot in the course of our lives.

User Avatar
katrakkade441
Monday, Nov 04 2019

@ said:

Hi I'm applying to Michigan right now. I wanted to learn more about the school. What is the law school culture like there? How do you like your professors and classmates? How do you like the Ann Arbor? I'm from California, and I've never been to Michigan. In your experience how have students from other states adapted to Ann Arbor?

Sorry for the delay. I'm not on 7 Sage as much as I once was.

I know a few people from California. I think for the most part they like things here. However, some may find Ann Arbor a little small especially if they don't have a car to drive into Detroit. You are busy enough in law school that finding things to do isn't too much of a problem though.

Obviously, the climate takes some people some getting used to. It's cold most of the year. We had our first substantial snowfall Friday and while it didn't really stick, it will within the next month and then things will probably be fairly snowy until April. If you are looking at U Chicago, Northwestern, or Cornell I imagine climate is roughly similar. I'm a native Michigander so its fun to tease my friends a little when they think it's cold. I and a friend from the UP walked out of the Lawyer's Club to get some food from Jimmy Johns during the cold day last year and teased them for thinking it was too cold to go out. My friend from the UP didn't where gloves which I thought was a bit bold.

Most students are from other states. I'd say its about 15-20 percent in-state, but you could probably check that.

I think the environment has been very nice. People are friendly with each other. Like what I have heard about most other schools you tend to make most of your first year friends in your section (since you have all your classes together). Beyond that, if you stay in the Lawyer's Club for 1L you'll probably settle down into eating with basically the same people twice a day except for days where you go to a lunch talk. That and the binding experience of 1L forges lasting friendships quickly. It has actually made it kind of hard to stop living in the Lawyer's Club. I'm commuting from home to save money, but both this summer and even now it feels a little off spending less time with my 1L core group that I was so close to for the first year. It doesn't help that one of them decided not to continue in law school after the summer(despite doing fairly well in the first year as far as I know) and therefore isn't around anymore.

For people who didn't bond as closely to people in their section or through the lawyer's club, student orgs and pro bono are great ways to meet friend.

The professors are brilliant and generally good teachers. A couple have been amazing lecturers. Honestly, if I wasn't paying for law school and was not going to be a lawyer, I would still want to be in most of my classes just for the interesting and thought provoking discussions. In fact, since I'm still not fully sure how long I'll want to be a lawyer and got a great scholarship in a way that is kind of what I am doing. All of them have always been very open and approachable during office hours too although office hours tended to be pretty full of students first semester.

I could go on and on, but long story short, I've liked it.

User Avatar
katrakkade441
Sunday, Feb 03 2019

"But the material costs of hung juries do not warrant losing the benefit to society of the unanimous verdict."

This might be the rare case where a tiny bit of outside knowledge or info from the rest of the passage is helpful.

Requiring a unanimous verdict causes more hung juries than requiring a majority or a supermajority of the jury because if even one juror disagrees with the rest, then the jury will be hung.

When a jury is hung in a criminal trial, there is a retrial unless the prosecution gives up or a plea deal is reached. Trials and retrials cost money which is bad for society(but good for lawyers :smiley: ).

The sentence is saying the benefits of requiring a unanimous verdict (probably mostly avoiding the prosecution of innocent people) are greater/more important than the material costs of paying for the retrials. Therefore, we should require unanimous verdicts.

User Avatar
katrakkade441
Sunday, Mar 03 2019

@ said:

@

Thanks! I will be waiting until October 2019 to apply, so I can have the summer to write out my personal statement. I'm hoping for HYS, but I would be beyond thrilled to get in to NYU or Berkeley with good scholarships.

Any advice on the number of schools I should apply to with my stats? I don't want to spend too much money on application fees, but I was thinking to blanket the top 9 minus Chicago (I don't want to go back there....), plus UCLA and UC Irvine, for 10 schools total -- which is still $~800 in application fees. :neutral:

With that score and GPA you should get merit based application fee waivers at pretty much every school below HYS which don't give them out. There is still an LSAC fee each time, but it is $30 or $35. The school fee is the bulk of it.

They generally send the fee waivers automatically, but sometimes it helps to ask for them. You can probably do that near the end of the summer, but research it a little. Googling law school application fee waivers and reading any old tls threads or reddit posts would probably be a good start.

I would apply to all the top 14 if I were you except maybe Cornell and Georgetown since both are a little less likely to give full tuition scholarships. Even if you don't want to go to Chicago you should still apply there for the negotiating leverage. Especially if you have ties, they are probably more likely to let you in and maybe give you a scholarship than comparable schools(since they will think they have a better shot of you actually attending). You could then ask pretty much any school other than HYS to match.

Your making a $150,000+ decision here so while you want to keep fees down you definitely don't want to give up any potential leverage.

There are optional essays that you should probably do over summer too. I know Michigan for example really cares about the optional essays. The NYU scholarships I mentioned also have optional essays. So did Stanford. Yale famously has the short(I think 250 word essay).

I would also recommend getting your recommenders lined up ahead of time and asking them before summer. One of mine took longer than expected which delayed my applications and sometimes being early which you clearly can helps.

User Avatar
katrakkade441
Thursday, May 02 2019

https://www.amazon.com/Casio-MRW200H-7EV-Sport-Resin-Watch/dp/B005JVP0FU/ref=mp_s_a_1_4?keywords=casio+bezel&qid=1556810935&s=gateway&sr=8-4

If you are buying a watch for the LSAT, you want something like this. Mine has a black background and that works fine too.

https://www.amazon.com/Casio-Mens-MRW200H-1EV-Watch-Black/dp/B005JVP0DC/ref=mp_s_a_1_fkmrnull_2?crid=35PWDAVKI914G&keywords=casio+dive+watch&qid=1556811087&s=gateway&sprefix=casio+div&sr=8-2-fkmrnull

The point is that you want one with a bezel around the outside. You turn the bezel and line up the arrow with the minute hand at the start of each section. Then you have till the minute hand gets to the 35 on the bezel. This is a little easier and less stressful than resetting a watch to 12:00. Ideally, the watch should have roman numerals or dots rather than distracting numbers in the center.

Further, most of the cheap watches that have this bezel feature are dive watches. People count on them to keep track of their oxygen supply. So they are both consistent and as a bonus waterproof.

If you already had a usable watch I'd probably go with it. But if you want the absolute best watch for the LSAT, a cheap dive watch will do it.

And when you are done, you'll have a cheap watch you can use to both keep track of the time and time yourself without math when you go to a beach, a pool, or on a run.

Of course, the digital LSAT may render any of those adantages moot if timing is as easy as @ says.

User Avatar
katrakkade441
Saturday, Mar 02 2019

@ said:

Thanks @! I retook in January and scored a 174, and I'm over the moon! I think I have a real shot at T14 schools, and a fair shot at T6 too! Maybe even a realistic shot at HYS?

Congratulations!

It sounds like you should have a shot at every school including HYS, though those are hard to predict.

Perhaps more importantly you ought to have a shot at some pretty nice scholarships at Top 14 schools. I wouldn't be surprised if your decision comes down to something like full ride or near full ride at Michigan, Virginia, Penn, Duke, or Northwestern vs. Acceptance with an excellent LRAP at Harvard, Stanford, or Yale.

You might have to wait until next cycle if you want a shot at the top CCN scholarships, but especially with your academic experience and public interest goals, NYUs named scholarships could definitely be an option.

Confirm action

Are you sure?