Hi there! Congratulations on Penn! I’m a 1L at Northwestern. I would recommend that the best things you can do for yourself are simply to get your finances in order (pay off any debt if you can, put money into savings, make a budget for school, etc), get ready to do a lot of dumb paperwork and things to prep for school like making sure you are current on vaccinations, take a vacation or just some time off at home to rest and relax, start researching housing options (on vs. off campus, neighborhoods...), but otherwise I personally don’t think you need to do any substantive learning. Truly, everything you need to learn will happen during school.

I did a 3 day summer prep program through NU, which was great, but I don’t think you need to worry about seeking out those 0L prep courses. Every professor teaches things in their own way, so for some of my classes I think it would have actually been counterproductive if I’d tried to learn about the subject before school. A lot of folks recommend the book “Getting to Maybe,” which teaches you about taking law school exams. However, I’ve heard it makes a lot more sense once you get into school. So maybe buy that and skim it, but re-read it during the semester.

Granted, I don’t have any of my grades back yet, but as a former music major that has been out of undergrad for 10+ years, I can say that you will learn everything you need to know during orientation and class itself. I was worried about coming in at a deficit, but everyone is really on the same level. I wasn’t able to swing it financially, but the only thing I wished I did this past summer was take a serious vacation. Once school starts, you won’t have much of an opportunity to do that for like 3-5 years, so have a lot of fun, enjoy the summer, and start school refreshed and well-rested!

Hi! Checking in briefly here from 1L at Northwestern, where I am currently avoiding studying for my contracts exam. 😂

I suppose take it with a grain of salt, because this is anecdata and I don't even have grades from first semester yet. But I still feel pretty confident in saying - no, I think measuring how long and hard you have to study for the LSAT has nothing to do with your law school performance. I know people here that are reverse splitters, people that scored in the high 170s, and then there's me, who studied my butt off for 9 months to squeak by with a median score for NU.

And you know what? Those have absolutely nothing to do with how well we are understanding or performing in law school.

That's not to say the LSAT doesn't have value. I'm maybe a minority, but I think it is a decent screening test. At least, as far as other options go (like the GRE), I think it is as relevant as it can be to law school. I mean, a math score is 100% useless. We aren't crunching numbers in law school. I think any test with math in it is just pretty irrelevant.

However, there is a whole lot of close reading, struggling to wrap your mind around incredibly dense passages, paying super close attention to detail, making inferences and connecting nebulous esoteric legal concepts to public policy issues, and basically learning to re-program your brain to work in a different way than it has before.

I think the LSAT has value not just in teaching you to think logically and analyze difficult reading, but in screening for the amount of work you are willing to put in to achieve something. Yes, some people have brains that just process the LSAT material easier and faster than others. But I think those people are extremely few and far between. The vast majority of people who take the LSAT have to put a LOT of work into it to get a high score. It takes patience and discipline, and really effing hard work, which are all qualities that will serve you well in law school. Studying for exams has made me think about studying for the LSAT... there's sort of a similar feeling. A lot of isolation, a lot of reviewing and reviewing and then reviewing some more. Being disciplined and sticking to a schedule. And despite exams being on average around 3 hours long, there is never enough time, so they are a constant race against the clock. You have to learn not only the material, but test taking techniques - how to maximize your efficiency by getting the low hanging fruit, but also working on the techniques that will set you apart to get the higher score.

Those are all similar skills you hone by working on the LSAT. And you know, someone who can sit down and take the LSAT without having to put much effort into it may actually be missing out on some valuable lessons learned.

I know people here who went to Ivy undergrads and I went to a tiny no-name school that no one has ever heard of lol. Splitters, reverse splitters, and naturally high LSAT scorers. And once we got here, the playing field has been relatively level. English majors sometimes struggle with legal writing, because better legal writing is kind of ugly and boring and plain lol. People who are very naturally intelligent can struggle to understand the Erie doctrine. It's just a different thing. I really, deeply believe that having to work harder to get your LSAT score is not a disadvantage - and in some cases, may even be an advantage because you display the hard work and discipline it takes to succeed in law school.

I hope that helps some. And now... I need to stop sticking my head in the sand and go figure out promissory estoppel 😂 Feel free to DM me if you have any questions about law school too, just no guarantee that I'll be able to respond until at least after exams are over haha.

Ugh, LSAC continually finds ways to make hurdles higher for everyone. This is so pointless and meritless and... ugh. All the things. Thank you so much for how you have advocated for all of us - I also wouldn't be where I am without 7sage (and am so lucky to even have the 7sage community live on in school!). I know that this is a massive disappointment, but the 7sage model will continue to level the playing field and help people with fewer resources thrive in the legal field. (3(/p)

Thanks for the assist, @jhaldy10325 :)

@melissasegarra2007779

You asked great questions, and some of them are the reason specifically that I'm at NU!

So, several years ago, NU was gifted with an insanely large donation from the Pritzker fam, and a lot of that money was specifically earmarked for PI use. So as far as PI goes, NU's funding is crazy compared to most schools. We have guaranteed summer funding for unpaid non-profit or gov work of $8000. Most schools will give more like $2k-4k, and often it's not guaranteed. NU also created a Public Interest Center which, as mentioned, has its own dedicated career advisor. There's also funding available to help attend PI career fairs, or travel for interviews for PI positions. The Bluhm Clinic is doing ridiculously cool work - I'm super anxious to get past 1L specifically so I can get my hands on clinic work. They really encourage students to do a clinic at some point, and they do overall highly encourage people to do pro bono and volunteer work. (The $8k summer funding is actually conditioned on doing 20 hours of volunteer/pro bono work during the school year.) There are also lots of speakers that give lunch talks re: PI work. Tomorrow I'm planning to attend a talk with someone from Legal Aid Chicago, on Friday there is someone speaking that does immigration work with Al Otro Ladro, last week there was a talk re: US policy in Latin America, the Caribbean and Africa... there's always some fascinating talk happening! (And the free lunches don't hurt lol.)

However, yes - an overwhelming majority of NU students are not pursuing PI careers - mostly biglaw or business (super strong JD-MBA program). But I can say, the PI community seems to be pretty tight, and you can find your people. It also seems as though NU is making a concerted effort to recruit more students that want to pursue PI - this year's 1L class seems to have a noticeably larger population of people with PI career goals than in previous years.

Re: scholarships - NU is known for being one of the most generous schools in the T14. I don't know if they specifically give full tuition scholarships, but they do routinely award $180k, which is nearly full. Their early decision program has a guaranteed scholarship of $120k, which is around 2/3 tuition. In keeping an eye on LSN over the past few years, it seems that NU heavily factors in LSAT scores in scholarship decisions. It seems rare for anyone with less than a 170 to be awarded $150k+ in scholarship money. One thing to consider though is that NU does not separately award merit scholarships and need-based grants, but instead factors need into their overall scholarship decision. So, the numbers can perhaps be a little misleading because no one's GPA and LSAT will tell you about their financial status.

The best thing you can do is focus on the LSAT - if you have a good undergrad GPA, a 170+ on the LSAT has a good chance at getting you a really strong scholarship offer at NU.

@melissasegarra2007779 Hey! You came to the right place on this. :) I'm interested in pursuing PI jobs and have a number of reasons why I chose NU (including the excellent finaid - they are one of the most generous in the T14). I haven't been at the school long, but am getting to know the PI community and asking a lot of questions. I have like 10 minutes to finish my crim reading and run to class though lol, so I'll come back and give a real answer later!

@insidesurgery489 😂 Yes, sort of haha. Basically, it's an automated system that will display a question, give you a minute or so to gather your thoughts, and then it video records your answer (with a timer running - you have a set amount of time for your response). So, it's less like talking to a robot and more like talking to yourself haha.

@jhaldy10325 Hah well personally, I did basically no relaxing or enjoying of good reads, nor did I do any actual school prep. 😂 I've been out in the work force for a long time, so I kept my full time job as long as possible, both for the income and to keep my health insurance. I worked up until about a week before I moved. So I spent the summer working full time and prepping for a long distance move - spending time with friends as much as I could, but mostly my last couple of months were spent finding a roommate, apartment hunting, researching moving logistics, selling furniture, etc. Also, there is a lot to do just for the nitty gritty of enrolling in school - transcripts, vaccinations, somehow there was always something to check off the list. So, my summer was extremely not relaxing, and I didn't have much time to squeeze in reading anything.

The only thing I did for prep was a 3 day program that NU puts on the week before orientation called Summer Law Preparatory Program (SLPP). NU emailed us about 3 different summer prep options, and I chose to apply for that one specifically since it was through NU - I figured it would be the most applicable. It was a really great program that gave us a nice overview of things we need to know - we got to meet and work with a few professors, and I got to meet some classmates before orientation. I've stayed friends with several people from SLPP that ended up in different sections. Super grateful for that, since I probably wouldn't have met them otherwise.

I have frequently heard the book "Getting to Maybe" recommended - UCLA even shouted it out at ASW. However, I have also heard that it makes a lot more sense once you start law school because it mostly deals with how to write exams. So I think if you're going to do any prep, I might recommend buying that book and reading or skimming it over the summer, and keep it on hand so you can review it once you start school and get closer to exams. Also, if you are not a particularly fast typist, practicing touch typing over the summer to up your speed and accuracy could be helpful since exams are basically a race against the clock.

I can't recommend for or against any other types of prep - but personally, I feel like very little could actually prepare you for the real thing. I have a couple of professors that are extremely idiosyncratic, so if I'd tried to prep on any subject matter, I'd need to forget it anyway. They really teach you everything you need to know at school - and at least at NU, tons of resources are readily available for anything you might not understand.

@drbrown2259 said:

@jhaldy10325 said:

@drbrown2259 , I can confirm housing costs further from campus. I'm in Uptown which is a bohemian feeling neighborhood and rooms are more in the $800 range. About a 40 minute commute by train, but I'm getting a parking spot in the garage tomorrow which will cut commute down to 10 minutes.

Those prices aren’t as scary as I assumed they would be. I’ve only been to Chicago twice, both times only for a short visit, and I was a little nervous about bringing a vehicle for parking purposes. Seems realistic to drive to school if you have a garage spot. Train would be fine as well. Hope I’m fortunate enough to be admitted so I can head back for a proper tour of the school and city!

Tbh, I moved here from Seattle and the cost of living is pretty reasonable to me. But there's a lot of sticker shock for folks that move here from much cheaper areas, which is reasonable. Like, $2500 for a 2 bedroom is expensive, but the apartment I'm in now would probably cost a lot closer to $3k in Seattle. Expensive is in the eye of the beholder, hah. (I wish I wasn't so numb to high rents!)

@jhaldy10325 Hey buddy! 👋🏻 Just found out we have a mini (ungraded) midterm in contracts on Friday. Here’s a tip for the 0Ls out there: don’t let yourself get behind on readings just because your prof doesn’t cold call. 😬 It’ll only result in your own pain and suffering haha. Thesis paragraph due tomorrow too and I’m a slow as crap writer, so let’s just say this weekend is suuuuuper fun! Having a blast haha.

@zdanewiczmark692 As a broad tip, every school wants to know that you'll be a good student there (that's what GPA, LSAT, resume, LORs and such are for), that the school you're applying to is your top choice (not that it actually has to be, but every school wants to hear how much you love them, hah), and what makes you unique. So think about how you can show that you'll excel there, how you can convey your honest case for why you want to go to that school, and what might be unique or set you apart from others. But do it honestly - don't be insincere or try to force anything. Schools really do want to make sure you'll be a good fit for them, so be genuine. If you try to make yourself out to be something or not, you risk ending up at a school that's not the best place for you.

I did generally negotiate scholarships, but NU has a sort of specific way of handling scholarships and things didn't align for me. They shot me down pretty quick on my attempt haha. The short of it is, NU will basically only negotiate with you if you have a better scholarship from a school that is ranked higher than them. My offers from Cornell and WashU were not helpful. My 1 (sort of) regret is not applying to more higher ranked T14s, at least for negotiation purposes. I only applied to the schools in T14 that I thought I had a good shot at, and would actually consider attending. Those were Berkeley, Michigan, and NU. I got WL at Mich and denied at Berkeley. So, I had nothing else to negotiate with it. Not that anything else was guaranteed, but I wish I had applied to a few more for scholarship reasons - like UVA and Duke. I just knew that I had little to no desire to attend those (just geographically, not my jam) and I didn't want to spend the extra time and effort on it.

Alright - I gotta get back to attempting to do some writing lol. As always, feel free to PM me (or reply here) and I can try to answer questions at another time! Take care, 7sagers!

And @jhaldy10325 Agh, I owe you a text! Lol. #nlawdifference 😂

@drbrown2259

The housing immediately around the school is pricey - expect to pay $1500+ for a studio, $2400+ for a 2 bedroom. I live a couple blocks from school with a roommate and our building does have a garage but it’s $250/month. Sooo I didn’t bring a car. If you’re willing to have a bit of a commute (like 30ish minutes or more by train), then there are more affordable apartments. Most don’t have dedicated parking, but there’s more street parking available.

@leahbeuk911 The video interviews are always awkward, for every school. NU’s is pretty straightforward. If you google, you can find questions that have been asked before. Definitely be ready to answer the typical “why law” and “why NU”. But ultimately, just remember that the whole purpose of the videos is just to get to know you as a person. It's not some sort of test you have to pass - they just want to get a sense of what you are like in person, and that you are thoughtful, somewhat prepared, and take it seriously. I can say that NU does seem to be pretty intentional about wanting to admit students that will thrive in the environment here, which is intellectually rigorous but also very friendly and supportive. I know the "holistic approach" is a bit of a cliche in admissions, but I really do think that NU is proud of the very collegial, collaborative atmosphere and wants to admit students that will appreciate that. So be prepared, but most importantly be yourself! They just want to get to know you. :)

If you crush the LSAT, which your PTs indicate you have a very good shot at, you can go to a great law school and come out of it with little to no debt. If you get a great LSAT score (like prob at least 175+), you'd even be extremely competitive for the Ruby at UChicago, which is (IMO) basically the best outcome there is. You graduate from an amazing school with basically no debt (the Ruby is full tuition+stipend). There are other options too for going to a T14 for little to no money - Northwestern is extremely generous in funding, there are full tuition scholarships at multiple schools for certain folks.

I basically say this to say, biglaw is not your only option post-grad. If you think you would hate it, keep your debt as low as possible and do something else instead. Public interest, small boutique firms, government jobs... there are a lot of paths out there that don't require you to go to biglaw. Yes, most firm jobs are going to be pretty demanding, especially as a 1st year associate. But if you don't rack up debt, you're not tied to biglaw.

As others mentioned above, med school is 4 years, plus residency, then fellowship... you're going to come out of it with way more debt, and MD jobs are not necessarily less demanding or stressful. So if it's a coin flip and you think you'd be happy doing either, I think law school would be a better way to go - less debt and a lot more flexibility in what your career will look like. But if you're thinking you don't actually want to be a lawyer... well, that's a different story.

I think you'd be wise to take a year or two to look into different types of MD and law jobs, find people who love what they are doing and ask them why they love it. That should be illuminating to see if you might enjoy the same thing.

Generally it’s best to disclose value not. However, I think it’s unlikely you will need to. As David said above, you will just have to read each C&F prompt very closely. If the question says, “Have you ever been charged with a crime...” it sounds like your truthful answer is now. (The way I read this, your friend was charged but you were not, correct?) I can’t really think of a prompt that would mean you need to disclose this, but you will need to read every prompt very closely, and perhaps even call the school for clarification if you are not sure. No one will hold this incident against you, but they will if you are not forthcoming about it. However, since it sounds like only your friend was charged and you were not, I think it’s unlikely you will need to disclose it.

It's important to also bear in mind that each individual LSAT has a different scoring scaled that is customized for that particular test. The sections vary in difficulty so the scoring scale is tweaked to make your overall score consistent. So it's not only a matter of keeping consistency in how many you miss, but seeing what your scaled LSAT score is. This is often referred to as "the curve" for LSATs. (It's not really a "curve", but that is the common nickname.) People will refer to a -12 curve, meaning that you can miss 12 questions overall and score a 170. The tests vary in range from somewhere around -9 to -15 for a 170. So you can't always compare your raw score from test to test.

That said, early on in my studying my scores were also inconsistent. I scored anywhere from a 159 to a 168 for a few months. As I continued studying, my scores became more consistent. So this could also be what you are experiencing.

Another issue is fatigue - if you are consistently scoring worse in a full PT setting than you do while doing individual sections, you may just be getting tired and not used to how long the test is. It's difficult to have the stamina for that. (A clue that this is the problem is if you score worse in later sections than earlier ones.) The stamina to do these super long tests comes with practice - just keep doing them consistently and you'll adapt over time. It's also helpful to do 5 or even 6 section PTs. Maybe you start with 4 and work your way up. (You can use fresh PTs to split up and use as extra sections.) It's like training for a marathon... you just have to train and keep working at it.

As far as older vs newer sections - the LSAT has changed over time. Old LGs are good material to use for learning the games and drilling though. They still use all the fundamental skills, and it won't waste newer materials. But, particularly as you get closer to your test date, you should make sure to practice with newer games too. IMO, the older games are harder. They have more miscellaneous game types and sometimes are not as clear as newer tests. I think the newer LG sections are overall a little easier. They almost always begin with game 1 being a one line sequencing game - the easiest and fastest type. They seem to be more formulaic to me. Although in the last year or two, I think they've been using more miscellaneous types again, forcing you to improvise in setting up your game board. The older games are great training material for learning how to be flexible and figure it out as you go.

I think what I would do (if you can afford it), is register now for the September test. Take the July and if you are unhappy with your score, cancel it and use the free registration as a back up (October or even November). Plan on taking it in September too, but you could always withdraw or change the test date if you think you won't be ready then either. Does that make sense? I think timeline would look like this:

Register now for July and September

Take July

Receive July score. If unhappy with it, cancel. Use free registration to sign up for October.

Take September

Receive September score. Happy? Yay! Unhappy? You have 1 more shot in October.

Most ED deadlines are around November 15 - December 1. So the October test would be pushing it. That's why I think you should consider just signing up for September now so you have that option in your back pocket. It looks like you'll get the September score about 3 weeks after you take it. October score release date is TBD but I'm guessing it will be a similar timeline - roughly around Thanksgiving. That would be tight for applying ED. You could always get your app in for ED with your September score and they will begin evaluating it. You probably won't receive an answer until after your October score is released, which the schools also receive automatically (usually a few days after you see it, so it's sent pretty quickly). So they would probably be willing to consider an October score for ED if they haven't made a decision yet, but you would need the September test in order to have your app complete by the deadline. Hope that makes sense!

Here are a few info pages on ED with their deadlines:

Michigan - November 15 deadline, October is last LSAT accepted

https://www.law.umich.edu/prospectivestudents/admissions/applyingtomichigan/Pages/EarlyDecisionOption.aspx

Berkeley - November 14 deadline, September is last LSAT accepted

https://www.law.umich.edu/prospectivestudents/admissions/applyingtomichigan/Pages/EarlyDecisionOption.aspx

Northwestern - December 1 deadline, September is last LSAT accepted

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissions/applying/earlydecision.html

Duke - ED I November 1 deadline, ED II January 3 deadline

https://law.duke.edu/admis/degreeprograms/jd/#howtoapply

NYU - November 15 deadline, November is last LSAT accepted

https://www.law.nyu.edu/jdadmissions/applicants/applications

It’s a personal decision of course. I didn’t have the option to quit or only work part time. I studied evenings and weekends but made sure to take enough breaks to keep my sanity. Studying full time would have cut down the number of months it took me, but wasn’t an option. There are a good number of people around here who study while working full time, so if that’s what’s best for you financially, we can give you our best tips for balancing things. I think it’s good practice for law school too, knowing how to balance a very busy schedule without going too crazy haha.

I liked listening to Thinking LSAT. I don't personally endorse all their advice (like the only thing you need to do to study is do PTs over and over, and I've heard them rag on 7sage's methods) but it still was nice to be lightly thinking about LSAT and admissions stuff while I'm driving. I did pick up some helpful tips from them too.

Also, "Radiolab Presents: More Perfect" is so great. Really well-told stories behind supreme court decisions.

Unrelated to anything law or LSAT related - "It's Been A Minute" is my absolute favorite podcast. A little bit current events, pop culture, interesting stories from around the country and world, and it's just always funny and interesting.

I think taking a week sounds just fine... but for me, I would have lost momentum and gotten rusty if I took 3 weeks off. I'd maybe take a week or so to relax, and then go back to a lighter studying schedule. It's ok to re-use tests, just maybe use ones that you haven't taken in quite a while so it seems fresher. It's unlikely you memorized most of the questions. The score may be slightly skewed, but it'd be more about keeping in shape if you're happy with where you are PTing currently.

It's tough - there's no way really to say what you're capable of. There are people who improve from the 140s into the 170s. It's more about how much time you invest into it. I think most people have a very high ceiling, but it can take some longer than others to improve. Definitely all 3 sections improved for me, including RC. There are certainly things you can do to improve your score there, and a lot of RC questions are similar to LR question types. So as you figure out how the LSAT works and what methods work best for you, you can improve in every section. But I think LG is the one that is easiest to quickly improve on. The others just take a little more time and repetition in order to see the same level of improvement.

For me, I started PTing with averages around -9 LG, -7 LR, and -7 RC. By the end of my studying, I was able to get LG consistently in the -2 or so range, but RC never got past around -4/-5. LR varied from about -2 to -4. I improved fastest on LG, but then RC and LR followed but on a slower pace. Those numbers will vary a lot though on your own personal strengths and weaknesses, how much time you have to study, what point you are starting from, etc.

I think the best thing to do for setting your goal is to decide what schools you want to target, and then figure out what you want your overall score to be in order to maximize both chances at admission and scholarship money. Then you just study study study and work to get where you need that final score to be.

Good luck!

Thank you 7sage!! <3 <3 <3

Unless you have a binding offer (like most early admission programs are), then I don't believe they can require you to withdraw from waitlists. WLs aren't offers of admission - you haven't actually received an answer yet. So if they were to argue about it, you could genuinely tell them that you did not have that decision yet, it's a new offer. I think you're fine. I'd just be careful about burning the bridge - like if you do receive a WL offer that you want to accept, I probably wouldn't approach the school you are currently committed to about it until you know 100% you are accepting the other offer.