Chicago law, without a trust or rich parents, is going to cost you over $300k + interest in debt. Chicago gives you the best job prospects. But even if you make $170k+ as an associate, you're basically going to be living like a pauper for a long time. I don't know if that's worth it.

Do you not have offers from other T14s? I'm assuming that if you got into Chicago you should have substantial scholarship from a T10. I would attend the T10 with scholarship money and forget your full rides to second tier and T25 schools. (FWIW, that is what I'm doing, as hard as it is to pass up some of the T6. Take the money and run.)

@ No problem!

Just remember: negotiate, negotiate, negotiate. Hopefully you have offers from peer schools to negotiate. Financial aid offices should be expecting negotiation emails anyway, and they will definitely understand your position as an international student, since you can't get federal loans. I'd say something like "X school is my top choice, but as an international student ineligible for federal loans, I'm really concerned about finances. If I can get my scholarship up to X I would attend/would be likely to attend." The worst they can do is say no. Also ask the schools about housing - some schools have a couple of houses (either school run or run through a nonprofit) that provide free housing to students that meet a certain set of criteria. You have to apply and sometimes the housing is not super optimal but hey, it's free.

You might also want to look into international financial aid. I was completely unaware of its existence but in another thread @ mentioned that it exists. I doubt that international financial aid is anywhere near as generous as financial aid for US students (which is not really very generous in the first place), but it is worth a shot.

> @ said:

> > @ said:

> > The Good Wife!!! Patiently awaiting The Good Fight....

>

> Definitely digging The Good Fight.

Me, too. Signed up for CBS All Access for it.

If you poke around TLS, there is a thread that shows how many admits from each T14 comes off the waitlist. For some schools being on the waitlist is better than others - if I recall correctly, getting off the waitlist at Harvard is statistically easier than getting off the waitlist at say, Duke.

Coming off the waitlist does not necessarily mean that you won't get money. Lots of T14 schools have money for waitlisted students, but I would absolutely not bank on it. And of course it won't be a full ride, but T14s tend to have good LRAP programs.

I think that riding out the waitlist is only "worth it" if you have specific PI goals. If you want to work at the very elite top of PI, say at the ACLU and you're on the Harvard waitlist, wait it out. Top PI jobs are crazy competitive and you really need to be at a T14.

Otherwise, I would probably take the PI fellowship, given that it's in the first half of the T1. But like someone said above, definitely e-mail those schools you're on the waitlist for and tell them your situation. They might change their mind and admit you, or decide to let you go. It'll hopefully make your decision easier. Congrats and best of luck @ !!

@ I believe GULC and possibly Cornell have a preferred waitlist. Oh and Duke has like priority reserve or something. Basically they divide their waitlists into two (or more) camps. They pull from the preferred waitlist first and then the regular waitlisters if everyone in the preferred group turns them down.

@ said:

Geeeeeezzzz. This really hurts my ego even more. UTA going t14 when I most likely won't get in succccckkkkkkkksssssssss.

If it helps, if you look at the raw scores, UT didn't increase their raw index score at all - they actually lost one point. They are only in #14 because Georgetown lost three points or so. So I don't think that would impact your admissions offer.

Speaking of index scores, what's going on with the T13 this year? It seems like almost everyone's index score dropped. The only real "gain" was by Northwestern. Any other T13 (or 14 if you still want GULC) that went up a rank did so purely because someone ranked ahead of them fell.

Unless you are dead set on public interest in Canada, come on down to the states.

I don't know much about UBC and legal academia in Canada, but tbh working in legal academia with your current US options is probably not super viable. If you want to be a US academic pretty sure you need to be at HYS or maybe C or C.

Edit: (sorry, on mobile and pressed send on accident) That being said, Berk/Mich/UVA give you GREAT public interest opportunities. And I would imagine that these schools would enable you to practice in both the US and Canada at ease. I don't know how realistic it is for someone out of a Canadian school to enter American public interest - not that it isn't possible, but I think there are fewer connections. Also, the fact that you have $$ for an American school pretty much seals the deal for me.

Congrats @ !!

@ said:

Moreover, this i think is continuing the general trend. There was a time when B-School would only take GMAT. Now almost every B-School takes GRE and B-School applicants have a choice to choose between GRE and GMAT.

I think the GRE and GMAT are more similar in content than the GRE and LSAT though.

One more bone to pick...Harvard says that it wants to accept the GRE to help students defray costs associated with admissions tests. It's true that prepping well for the LSAT is hard, time-consuming, and expensive. It's not accessible to many people.

But...Harvard tuition is still like...almost 200 grand? And they don't distribute merit aid. So eliminating the money necessary for LSAT preparation doesn't really do that much to make law school more accessible imo, unless you can get need-based aid that covers almost all expenses.

As flawed and frustrating as the LSAT process is....I'm really confused as to how on earth this is going to work?

I haven't taken the GRE, but I think that for most people it would take substantially less work to earn a 99th percentile GRE score than a 99th percentile LSAT score. This doesn't apply to Harvard, but how would law schools accepting the GRE/LSAT decide to distribute merit aid? The LSAT and GRE are not the same test, even if they might predict law school outcomes in similar ways.

I think like 10 years ago or something there were "too many" people applying to law school. Then the economy tanked and lawyers were screwed...Not trying to be elitist here but do we really need more people applying to law schools? Should we really be creating a system where there are enough people aspiring to be lawyers that third and fourth tier schools are necessary...? I think that accepting the GRE would amplify this problem. I'm with the poster above, not super optimistic here.

It looks like Rutgers had two separate law schools before 2015. They merged in 2015 and I am guessing that their combined resources is now yielding a better overall ranking.

@ said:

@ DO TELL PLEASE.

Sorry if my post sounded juicy, I didn't mean for it to sound that way! I didn't apply to any Boston schools. I just heard lots of complaints from friends. They had numbers that should put them in acceptance + big scholarship range at BU and BC but it didn't really happen. They might be trying to raise their medians and are being more aggressive than usual.

Edit: It could also be a yield thing.

@ said:

What's going on with BU?

Literally got an email from them today waitlisting me. I was pissed. Yet, I have a full ride to Iowa which used to tie you?

Location, location, location.

I've heard that some weird stuff is going on with Boston schools this cycle.

@ said:

I've heard that GT grads were having a harder time (in recent years) competing with graduates from other schools for SCOTUS clerkships and jobs. Job placement and viability comprises a fraction of each school's USNWR score.

This is true. I'm not sure why GULC isn't cutting their class size.

I think that the arrival of Texas at #14 is attributed more to a slight decline on GULC's part than a rise in Texas's numbers. Sorry Texas, I still think you're great though.

Hasn't GULC fallen out of the #14 spot before? I feel like GULC and UT have switched spots at least once but maybe I'm making it up?

Also I wouldn't worry about Berk too much. Rankings fluctuate year to year. It happens. It's still T14 for a reason.

Just popping in to wish you the best of luck @ . I think one of your posts was the first thing I saw when I joined 7Sage, so I know you've been at this a while.

Not the advice you're looking for, but maybe just take a couple of weeks and enjoy your new freedom? Binge watch a TV series or something, you deserve it.

Hey there!

Not sure what "middling" GPA means, but if it's anything below a 3.6 I'd aim to score 170+ on the LSAT to be competitive at a T14. If you're at a 3.7 and up, you can definitely get into a lower T14 without hitting 170. I think that plenty of people get into lower T14s with like a 3.7/8 and a 168-9 - but I wouldn't count on any scholarship money.

While law schools see your entire academic transcript, unfortunately your undergrad GPA is the only grade that really matters, unless you are a non-traditional applicant. And I would say that the majority of law school applicants have decent connections, community service, and many speak another language and have worked on the Hill, so I don't think I would bank on those helping you get into law school. However, that being said, Hill experience + having an MBA will definitely help you get jobs once you become a lawyer. You just need to get into law school first, so definitely focus on the LSAT.

I'd aim for a mid-170s, and just know that it will take time to get there. If you can break that 170+ ceiling, then you will have so many more opportunities.

@ You're right, there are definitely paths other than big law - it's just that often times, the schools that give you the best shot at big law are going to give you the best shot at everything else.

With regards to small/medium firms being full of St. Mary's graduates - you are definitely right that it is possible, and not uncommon, to find small firms that will take you from a T3 or T4 school (and, yeah, to your point about low pay). But again, career goals. You would have to be 100% committed to your small firm and your neighborhood to make that work. For most people applying to law school, this isn't realistic because life happens and most people are young.

Also, just using St. Mary's/San Antonio as an example: while it's true that many small firms are filled with St. Mary's grads, how many St. Mary's grads /didn't/ make it to those firms? What if all the people working at those small firms were the top 5% of their respective class? Where do the St. Mary's people that strike out in San Antonio go? It's hard for me to imagine that St. Mary's has much of a reputation outside the region, let alone the state. That is what I would worry about when choosing a T3/4.

@ Get on that F5 game (or not if you use a Mac)!

@ said:

Have you consistently been a good student? If so, you will probably be a good student at a tier 3 or 4 and place high enough to stand out against students applying from other higher end law schools.

If you have been a middle of the road student, it may be best to get a safety net by going to a tier 1 or tier 2 university. That way, you automatically placed in a favorable pool of applicants.

Going to push back a little on this.

Being a good student in high school + college does not necessarily mean that you will stand out at your Tier 3 or 4 school. Also, standing out to professors at a Tier 3 or Tier 4 probably isn't going to be enough to get you where you want to go.

At a Tier 3 or 4 school, you are given fewer chances to stand out to employers.

Not as many firms visit Tier 3 or 4 schools. The door is shut for you on most of the major law firms in America. Those that do make it - and there are those who succeed at Tier 3 and Tier 4 - are just plain lucky. They are the abnormality. So, you can be an amazing student, #1 in your class, at a Tier 4, but there's really no way that a V50 firm views you as a better hire than someone ranked at #50 at a T14, where they regularly recruit.

I would also not consider going to a Tier 2 a "safety net." Anything outside the T1 is pretty risky imo, unless you are dead set on working at a small firm in your law school's neighborhood for the rest of your life.

It's hard to define "normal" with law schools, especially with this cycle. It's been a very slow cycle. However, if you're waiting 6+ months for a response...that's probably not normal and you are probably dinged or WLd.

Personally, I heard back from T14 schools within a month. Average of 3 weeks. Other T1 schools took about a month - month and a half - I'm guessing that they have fewer resources in their admissions offices. I got very lucky though. Many people that applied when I applied are still waiting.

If you are accepted, schools will send a combo of an email, snail mail, update to the status checker, and sometimes a phone call! Rejections are sometimes emailed, but more common by status checker and snail mail.

Hi Nicole, there are two ways that US News refers to "unranked" schools. The first category is truly "unranked" - I think that these schools did not supply US News with enough information for them to make an assessment. It looks like Regent falls into "Rank not posted" - it looks like they supplied US News with all of the information they needed, but they fell beyond #144, which is the lowest numerical ranking they offer.

I think that you are asking the right questions. And to be frank, if you want to avoid career suicide, don't go to Regent. I understand that it works well for your life right now, but with so many other (ranked) law programs in Virginia, Regent is not a good choice for anyone. If you haven't yet, I'd read some articles about third-tier (and fourth-tier) law schools online. Not a good option if you want to be a lawyer, even if you get a full ride.

Your other schools seem like solid choices. William & Mary is a great school. I would just be cautious about your job prospects in DC, regardless of how the university sells it. I understand that quite a few W&M grads end up there, but DC is crazy competitive and W&M does not have the same power as a T14 in getting you to the market you want. You should definitely be targeting UVA, Duke, GT, and W&M. Just know that with Georgetown, simply being in DC /=/ great DC job prospects. Georgetown is a realllllly big school and its placement numbers are falling behind the rest of the T14, although it's still a top school, especially when compared to anything outside the first tier.

Skills and personality absolutely matter in the legal market, especially when it comes to securing summer jobs. To an extent, they matter in the law school admissions game, too. But your LSAT and GPA are far more important at this stage. Work on a great LSAT score so you can go to an amazing school that gives you opportunities to explore different areas of the law. Best of luck!

Hey @ CONGRATS! That is an amazing score.

I don't know if anyone knows the chances of your score going down. There isn't a lot of precedent here.

I really don't know if it's worth the risk though. A 172 is a perfectly good score for HYS, assuming that you also have a high GPA. If this was your first take and your PTs are higher, I would maybe consider just leaving your score and studying for a retake.

If you have over $100k from Northwestern, I'd take it.

Northwestern is an AWESOME school. Its big law numbers are great, especially in Chicago. Plus, with your connections, Northwestern with money is an easy sell imo. You don't even need to be at the top of the pack with connections (which is NEVER a guarantee, even at a second-tier school - even if I have no doubt that you are smart and hardworking) to land Chicago big law if you go to Northwestern.

Sure, it might not be as prestigious, which isn't great if you want to be a judge or in academia. But from what I understand, if you are going solely the firm route, Northwestern is a perfectly great school. It also gives you the option to move out of the Midwest, should that need ever arise. Dunno if you can really do that with the other schools you are looking at.

OK not to be that person but I'm going to say it again: do you not have other T14 offers with money?

I get why you don't want $300k in debt. That's really not fun, and it may not be worth it for many people. But the offers you have (or at least listed here) are really extreme. Choosing between UChi and second tier schools is really like apples and oranges and I'm not sure how your options are so...different.

If you've somehow decided that you are not going to take your other T14 offers with money...you should really reconsider. That would be a happy medium here.

If UChi is your only T14 acceptance and you're extremely debt averse/leaning toward a second tier...you should maybe reapply next year with a higher LSAT or at least apply to more schools. A UChi acceptance should almost always equal scholarship money at a lower T14.