Amy Wax: UPenn Law Controversy

acsimon

@"surfy surf" said:
I really take issue w all the people here who said “blacks” smh

Cool.

10000019

@"surfy surf" said:
I really take issue w all the people here who said “blacks” smh

FYI in Standard Written English 'blacks' isn't a pejorative.

10000019

@"Seeking Perfection" said:
Thankfully, it had been definitively answered by the Dean of Penn Law though. So there really is no question that many African Americans have placed in the top quarter of the class at Penn Law and many more in the top half.

Can you direct to me to where you got that information? The only quote I saw from the Dean was:
"Black students have graduated in the top of the class at Penn Law"

That response contradicted Wax—if we ignore the qualifiers she sprinkled in—but left me unsatisfied.

Seeking Perfection

@10000019

"In the email, Ruger explicitly stated that her claims are false.

'[B]lack students have graduated in the top of the class at Penn Law, and the Law Review does not have a diversity mandate. Rather, its editors are selected based on a competitive process,' the email read. 'And contrary to any suggestion otherwise, black students at Penn Law are extremely successful, both inside and outside the classroom, in the job market, and in their careers.'"

http://www.thedp.com/article/2018/03/penn-law-dean-ted-ruger-professor-amy-wax-removed-racial-conservative-graduate-upenn-philadelphia

10000019

@"Seeking Perfection" said:
@10000019

"In the email, Ruger explicitly stated that her claims are false.

'[B]lack students have graduated in the top of the class at Penn Law, and the Law Review does not have a diversity mandate. Rather, its editors are selected based on a competitive process,' the email read. 'And contrary to any suggestion otherwise, black students at Penn Law are extremely successful, both inside and outside the classroom, in the job market, and in their careers.'"

http://www.thedp.com/article/2018/03/penn-law-dean-ted-ruger-professor-amy-wax-removed-racial-conservative-graduate-upenn-philadelphia

The problems I take with that quote:
1. 'top of class' isn't clearly defined.
2. The school has been around since 1850. In one of her many qualifiers, Wax narrowed the timeline to 2007-2018. The Dean doesn't specifically talk about that timeline. For that reason, I don't think what the Dean said even contradicts Wax.
3. The Dean didn't give any numbers. For all we know, a comparatively small number of black students graduate in the top of the class each year.

Besides saying that she was wrong, I don't think the Dean provided any support.

Seeking Perfection

@10000019 said:

@"Seeking Perfection" said:
@10000019

"In the email, Ruger explicitly stated that her claims are false.

'[B]lack students have graduated in the top of the class at Penn Law, and the Law Review does not have a diversity mandate. Rather, its editors are selected based on a competitive process,' the email read. 'And contrary to any suggestion otherwise, black students at Penn Law are extremely successful, both inside and outside the classroom, in the job market, and in their careers.'"

http://www.thedp.com/article/2018/03/penn-law-dean-ted-ruger-professor-amy-wax-removed-racial-conservative-graduate-upenn-philadelphia

The problems I take with that quote:
1. 'top of class' isn't clearly defined.
2. The school has been around since 1850. In one of her many qualifiers, Wax narrowed the timeline to 2007-2018. The Dean doesn't specifically talk about that timeline. For that reason, I don't think what the Dean said even contradicts Wax.
3. The Dean didn't give any numbers. For all we know, a comparatively small number of black students graduate in the top of the class each year.

Besides saying that she was wrong, I don't think the Dean provided any support.

What support do you want? He can't just release students' grades without their permission. I guess he could be more specific about top of the class as far as a percentage. But he definitely can't start telling you students names and grades. Are you suggesting that there used to be African Americans in tbe top quarter of the class at Penn, but that there have not been any in the past 11 years? Why would there be a change?

Additionally, it seems to me that the burden of proof should probably be Professor Wax's. She is the one making the statistically absurd claim that for not one but 11 years no African Americans have finished in the top quarter if the class.

I'm confident that on average African Americans likely place lower in the class because they are admitted with lower LSAT scores and GPAs on average which are the best predictors we have of how people will do in law school. The same is true for legacies and people with work experience. However, I think the suggestion that no Aftican American student has placed in the top 25 percent for years strains credibility not just because Professor Wax has a clear racist political motive, but because LSAT and GPA only account for about 25 percent of the total variation in 1L grades at law schools.

10000019

@"Seeking Perfection" said:
What support do you want? He can't just release students' grades without their permission. I guess he could be more specific about top of the class as far as a percentage. But he definitely can't start telling you students names and grades. Are you suggesting that there used to be African Americans in tbe top quarter of the class at Penn, but that there have not been any in the past 11 years? Why would there be a change?

Additionally, it seems to me that the burden of proof should probably be Professor Wax's. She is the one making the statistically absurd claim that for not one but 11 years no African Americans have finished in the top quarter if the class.

I'm confident that on average African Americans likely place lower in the class because they are admitted with lower LSAT scores and GPAs on average which are the best predictors we have of how people will do in law school. The same is true for legacies and people with work experience. However, I think the suggestion that no Aftican American student has placed in the top 25 percent for years strains credibility not just because Professor Wax has a clear racist political motive, but because LSAT and GPA only account for about 25 percent of the total variation in 1L grades at law schools.

>

Does it violates the privacy of students when statistics about groups are published? I guess a problem could arise when the group is too small. I would have liked the Dean to directly state that the black students were performing at the same level as the rest of the class. If that isn't the case, then I would have liked the Dean to explain what the school is going to do change that.

"Are you suggesting that there used to be African Americans in tbe top quarter of the class at Penn, but that there have not been any in the past 11 years? Why would there be a change? "
The Dean's quote never said anything about the top quarter. I didn't bring up the timeline because I agree with Wax; I brought up the timeline because I think people are erroneously using the Dean's remarks to refute Wax.

"burden of proof should probably be Professor Wax's"
I don't think it's reasonable to expect her to bring the statistics to the table. She was already violating policy by broadly sharing a 'trend'. But I'm going on a tangent. I don't really care about Wax or what she claims. I think the truth is somewhere between Wax and the Dean. Jumping to either side has dangerous implications.

Seeking Perfection

@10000019 said:

@"Seeking Perfection" said:
What support do you want? He can't just release students' grades without their permission. I guess he could be more specific about top of the class as far as a percentage. But he definitely can't start telling you students names and grades. Are you suggesting that there used to be African Americans in tbe top quarter of the class at Penn, but that there have not been any in the past 11 years? Why would there be a change?

Additionally, it seems to me that the burden of proof should probably be Professor Wax's. She is the one making the statistically absurd claim that for not one but 11 years no African Americans have finished in the top quarter if the class.

I'm confident that on average African Americans likely place lower in the class because they are admitted with lower LSAT scores and GPAs on average which are the best predictors we have of how people will do in law school. The same is true for legacies and people with work experience. However, I think the suggestion that no Aftican American student has placed in the top 25 percent for years strains credibility not just because Professor Wax has a clear racist political motive, but because LSAT and GPA only account for about 25 percent of the total variation in 1L grades at law schools.

>

Does it violates the privacy of students when statistics about groups are published? I guess a problem could arise when the group is too small. I would have liked the Dean to directly state that the black students were performing at the same level as the rest of the class. If that isn't the case, then I would have liked the Dean to explain what the school is going to do change that.

"Are you suggesting that there used to be African Americans in tbe top quarter of the class at Penn, but that there have not been any in the past 11 years? Why would there be a change? "
The Dean's quote never said anything about the top quarter. I didn't bring up the timeline because I agree with Wax; I brought up the timeline because I think people are erroneously using the Dean's remarks to refute Wax.

"burden of proof should probably be Professor Wax's"
I don't think it's reasonable to expect her to bring the statistics to the table. She was already violating policy by broadly sharing a 'trend'. But I'm going on a tangent. I don't really care about Wax or what she claims. I think the truth is somewhere between Wax and the Dean. Jumping to either side has dangerous implications.

You said the timeline was an issue. Either the timeline is an issue or it's not.

The Dean hasn't said anything remotely controversial. He said Black students have done vwry well at Penn Law. Given that's what we should expect, that some Black students would have done very well at Penn and others would have done poorly as with any other group of people in law school including other groups with lower than average LSAT scores(like those with wotk experience and alumni advantage), he really doesn't need to provide any extraordinary evidence. Given the small number of Black students at Penn Law he definitely would risk identifying someone by giving precise statistics. For an example of this just look at how people tried to find out Obama's grades using the fact that he transferred and his race.

When you make the claim as Wax did that no black students have graduated in the top quarter of the class, you need evidence. Otherwise people rightly realize you are just making up a statistic to try to stop non-white students from being admitted to your school.

Finally the truth isn't between the Dean's somewhat vague, but definitely true statements and Wax's blatant lie.

I would have liked the Dean to fire Wax for making up negative statistics to slander African American students at Penn.

10000019

@"Seeking Perfection"
If you're using the Dean's remarks to refute Wax's claims (which you did), then the timeline is an issue.

Seeking Perfection

@10000019 said:
@"Seeking Perfection"
If you're using the Dean's remarks to refute Wax's claims (which you did), then the timeline is an issue.

Then you should answer this question which I asked earlier.

Are you suggesting that there used to be African Americans in the top quarter of the class at Penn, but that there have not been any in the past 11 years? Why would there be a change?