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Related Discussions
Columbia vs. Michigan
sophie74
Free Trial Member
Alright, so let me start by saying I know how great of a problem this is to have. I am choosing between two of the best programs in the country and I'm thrilled. That being said... It's still not an easy decision.
My goals include PI (something juvenile justice, family law, or criminal law) and a clerkship. I am trying to compare Michigan and Columbia clerking numbers, and from what I can tell, Michigan places better. But I'm confused-- are those numbers based on self-selection? I find it hard to believe that Columbia would not have good clerking stats.
Of course, money is a factor. I did get a healthy scholarship from Michigan (around 60% tuition), and am still waiting to hear from Columbia on that front. That is a huge plus for Michigan, but I am not sure how much to let that sway me--Columbia has great LRAP and I would have the option to go to a firm for a few years to pay down debt.
Another factor is my SO being located in NY. Though not a deciding factor, it would be a perk for Columbia, for sure. Any thoughts from strangers?
Comments
From what I’ve read around the interwebs the reason Columbia’s clerkship rate is so low is because they push more toward BigLaw type jobs after graduation. Less people clerk and more go after those jobs.
As for PI, U.Mich seems to have the edge there for programs and stuff. They have a really good reputation for PI work.
I know this doesn’t do much to clear things up for you! Just adding some more info to your thought process!
Yeah pretty much everyone I've talked to with a public interest background has said NYU > Columbia for that field but just because a lot of students seem to go into big law from their doesn't mean they don't have strong programs. Don't know much about Michigan though, sorry!
60 percent at Michigan with the cost of living differential is a vast difference. But if you expect to use the LRAP anyway, the difference may be mitigated a little.
The clerkship thing may have started out as self selection and may partially still be self-selection, but eventually that becomes real. Michigan will have more contacts with a wider range of less competitive judges.
Additionally, Columbia is trying to place clerks in the second circuit against Yale, NYU, and Cornell. Michigan is placing in the 6th circuit against Vanderbilt. They both place all over the country, but it is easiest to place where you are. http://www.uscourts.gov/about-federal-courts/federal-courts-public/court-website-links
If you want to go to a firm to pay down the debt, I would definitely go with Michigan. There will be less debt so you can do it quicker and build up a savings to help you make the transition to public interest. If you are purely using the LRAP, Columbia may have a better one. If you were going into Big Law for a career, the extra cachet of the Columbia name might pay off late in your career. But if you just want Big Law for a few years at the market rate before switching to public interest, Michigan with a discount should do.
At Michigan, you will also have more clinical opportunities to prove your dedication to public interest for when you transition back and a better alumni network in public interest.
Then again they are both great options and I am biased. Unless something changes I'll be taking Michigan with a hefty, but not quite full scholarship over Columbia.
Can your SO visit you if you go to Michigan?
michigan because COA is much lower there and michigan tends to be more generous with their scholarship than Columbia. If you have no BigLaw aspirations, you shouldn't take out more loans to attend Columbia, which would probably help you just as much as Michigan to achieve your PI goals. Even if you change your mind, Michigan still places well in BigLaw, so Biglaw will still remain an option for you.
Tough to say since you don't know the financial situation at Columbia, but I think Michigan sounds like a better fit for your goals. They have a great program and reputation for PI. The cost of living is also so much cheaper you will end up with significantly less in loans.
So this is anecdotal, but I've heard from Columbia alumni that people are generally not that happy at Columbia. The faculty are difficult to engage with - both because for some reason they alienate themselves and also because the school is really big. If you want to get clerkships, this is really dangerous because you will definitely need a letter of rec from a prof, and if the profs aren't receptive to students then this will be very hard. The environment is also very cutthroat as a result of the class being big. People don't interact with each other as much since the classes are huge which alienates people and makes them more distant, and thus more willing to work against, their fellow students.
I haven't heard much about Michigan from Michigan alumni.
Take all this with a grain of salt.
I go to Michigan as a grad student now. The resources are great, a lot of space to study, faculty is accomadating. The only thing I truly hate is the weather. It's tough, obviously Columbia is gonna be cold to but, when they say the Winter's are gonna be tough, they forget to mention that so is Fall and Spring, considering it's going to snow here tomorrow.
Don't take my input too seriously, as it is based entirely on hearsay.
I have yet to hear a single positive testimony about Columbia. No one I know decided to go to Columbia (even after visiting). Sources point to the same problems: competitive, "dry" (not to be understood in alcoholic sense, as some testimonies indicate the opposite), and impersonal atmosphere.
Michigan really touts their PI reputation, and the data backs it up. They have really great record for placement and options. I agree that Columbia students tend to choose biglaw and if you wanted PI I still think Columbia would give you ample opportunities. However the edge there has to be UofM.
As @"Seeking Perfection" said, cost of living is a nontrivial factor. NYC is one ofnthe most expensive housing markets in the country, while Ann arbor is probably the cheapest city with a t14 school. I'm leaning michigan and finding solid options as cheap as 800-900 a month for a 1 bedroom apt in AA. In New York that might get you a taco
Thank you to EVERYONE @"Leah M B" @tylerdschreur10 @"Seeking Perfection" @Redentore3337 @FixedDice @"Paul Caint" @westcoastbestcoast @LSATcantwin @Sammie215 who has written for their honest opinions!! (And @lsatplaylist the answer is yes, but as a grad student as well, time will be limited).
I, too, have heard the negative reputation about Columbia. I have to say, it's pretty confusing and hard to parse out though, because most students at Columbia that I have spoken to say something along the lines of "I don't know why we have that reputation, everyone shares outlines, people are friendly, etc., professors are super accessible." I think, without a doubt, it's less of a community that Michigan, but that's also partly to do with the location being in NYC and not a small college town.
Part of me really wanted/still wants to be in NYC- but I am not convinced it is worth $120k more in debt. There is so much talk (here and everywhere) about prestige vs. money, and I wonder if that is real with Columbia v Michigan as well (i.e is there a prestige difference).
I do hear NYU described as friendlier than Columbia so I'm not sure it's just the being in a city part. However, that is definitely part of it. I don't think the friendliness or community is the most important reason to go to Michigan though. I think that the reduced cost is more important.
I'm sure there is a prestige difference if you want to go into the very best New York firms. But if you want to get into a Big Law firm and then do public interest, I think that difference is unimportant.
You know, I heard something like that too. I thought about some explanations, none of which may be true:
@sophie74
Hey bumping this to see if you got any more clarity-- I'm basically going through the same process with Columbia and Berkeley. I liked Columbia a lot more than I thought I would, certainly more than NYU which surprised me (although I think a lot of that has to do with my not wanting to be in the center of a major city). I also am interested in public interest, have a scholarship to Berkeley and minimal aid from Columbia... and a boyfriend on the east coast.... So with all these parallels I'm interested to see what you decided!
Hey @Sammie215! Ahh, that sounds like a really tough decision. I ended up deciding on Michigan. A lot of people have asked me since what tipped the scales, and I honestly don't know. Mostly my gut feeling probably, that Michigan was a better fit for me professionally as well as personally. It didn't come down solely to the $, but that certainly is a bonus. I don't know anything about Berkeley-- I didn't apply-- but if you want to discuss your decision please feel free to PM me!