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1 Like
UVA @ Sticker - Worth it?
sagp015
Free Trial Member
My goal is definitely BL but incurring so much debt to achieve it seems risky. Just wanted to hear your thoughts.
I've been accepted to WUSTL w/ $105k and WL at USC and NU.
Comments
I don’t know much about WUSTL, but on Virginia’s website they state that the class of 2017 placed 175 graduates into firms with 501+ attorneys. Median starting salary for the class was 180k. Class of 2017 also placed 28 people in federal clerkships and UVA is actually 4th I’m Supreme Court clerkships from 2005-2018. Taking on all that debt is daunting, but I think I would have a hard time saying no to UVA in this situation. Barring a significant recession, you will probably have no problem snagging a BL job out of there if you are around the median. However, I’m sure successful students at WUSTL can get BL too.
Above the Law just placed them at #2 based on their measurements which are heavily based on employment opportunities and cost. https://abovethelaw.com/schools/university-of-virginia-law/
This is definitely a personal choice you'll have to make because that really is a mountain of debt and unless Virgina has a stellar debt forgiveness program it make be very risky. (even with debt forgiveness it's risky). I should note, based on Above the Law, only 62% of UVA grads took on Jobs at Large Firms. That's really low for a high ranking school. I think typically the number is closer to 80%.
Follow up: It looks like UVA has a pretty decent loan forgiveness program.
Perhaps that explains why so many of their graduates do Federal Clerkships, public interest and Government work. https://www.law.virginia.edu/public-service/loan-forgiveness
You can get a job in Big Law from UVA without much difficulty. However, take into consideration the attrition rate in Big Law. For every 25 Big Law associates that are hired, 17 leave. With that in mind, I think it's reasonable to suspect that there's a strong chance you will leave Big Law, and an even stronger chance that if you stay in Big Law you will hate it. Even if you love Big Law, the expected billable hours are often 30%-40% higher than other legal jobs so you're working for the extra money. Needless to say, there are a lot of life sacrifices that come with a career Big law.
If you know for sure that you will be satisfied in Big law and that you will stay there for a good part of your career, then the $250k loan isn't a big deal. However, there's no way to get that guarantee.
So you have to ask yourself whether you're willing to take out $250k of debt knowing that the majority of Big Law associates hate their job or leave Big Law in the first few years.
I also, however, I don't want to be misleading here. You still have great employment opportunities if you choose to leave Big Law after a few years, but the debt will be harder to cover once you drop down from making 190k per year.
It's actually quite decent. If I'm not mistaken, only Columbia has something like the rate you mention (78%). If that 80% figure were the golden standard, schools like Yale (61%), Harvard (57%), Stanford (50%), and Chicago (61%) -- or the whole legal education system, for that matter -- should have been labeled educational scams a long time ago.
I believe Penn is pretty high too, but yeah 62% is very high. You have to also take into consideration the fact that not everyone is gunning for Biglaw.
My advice is to head over to TLS for this topic. 0L's really don't know anything about jobs.
Be sure to try and negotiate with UVA!
I stand corrected! Not where I got my numbers mixed up but I'm actually happy to hear they aren't typically that high. From what I've heard it seemed like so many people end up going to Big Law just to pay off their debts. I've always known I wouldn't take that route so it's good to see how many people are able take a different path.
Congratulations on your acceptances! Researching employment stats is a good start. It might also be helpful to reach out to the Admissions Offices of each school you are seriously considering and ask to speak with current students and alumni working in BL (ask lots of questions and see if it sounds like the right working environment for you). It is the month before the first deposit deadline so schools will be conducting outreach campaigns to admitted students. You could also ask to speak to someone (Office of Career Services maybe) who would be able to tell you more about the cities graduates tend to flock to and the specific firms in which the school has a strong presence. Alumni who are recruiting partners at big firms can make a difference when you are interviewing for your summer associate position. Do you care what city you end up working in? NYC, DC, Chicago? If so, the location of your preferred legal market might effect your law school decision. Good luck!
I'm personally super debt averse, so I'd lean toward WashU. However, UVA is obviously a fantastic school that has better job prospects than WashU in what you are wanting to do. I just hesitate to think it's a good idea to pay sticker at any school, other than possibly HYS and for specific reasons. What will your total COA? Do you have family helping to pay living expenses, or are we talking taking out loans for full tuition + all COL?
And as mentioned above, even with landing biglaw, many people don't stay there for long or are super miserable in it. Having less debt keeps you from being tied down to a job you may end up not wanting to do. Do you have any other potential offers coming? Anything you could use to negotiate with UVA? I think if I were you, I'd make a serious battle plan on how I was going to try to get UVA to come up with at least a little cash.
Checking in as I too am weighing UVA @ sticker (250k debt burden upon graduation) vs. WashU with a nice scholly (90k debt burden at graduation) and Wisconsin with 30k debt. Also sitting on 4 T14 WL's FWIW.
I would like to clerk and potentially move into teaching mid-career if I have the right grades so that certainly makes the decision harder. The difference between us is that I do NOT want to do BL, so I need to delve further into the LRAP to see if that makes those $3k/mo. loan payments actually feasible at a severely discounted rate if I do government work (which is what I want to do anyways).
Anyone else stuck in the sticker boat or have any thoughts about it?
If you are looking to clerk and teach then I think a strong argument can be made for Virginia. Check my post above Virginia does great with clerkships and it is much easier to break into academia coming from a more prestigious school.
I'd talk to attorneys if I were you to get an idea of why people hate BigLaw and whether that much debt is justified for that kind of school.
I personally think people hate BigLaw, not necessarily for the hours or hostile work environment, but because of how boring it is at times. Checking page numbers and formatting the table of contents until midnight probably stiffens any excitement you first get with your initial paychecks, especially for the kind of person attracted to law school (intellectually curious, philosophy-loving, creative thinking, literature analytic,etc. types)
In terms of that amount of debt being justified, I've been told that you can service it with a BigLaw paycheck just fine (granted you land a job which is where the risk is involved), but as others have alluded to, make sure you actually want to practice BigLaw for the foreseeable future. Make sure you go in with accurate expectations and choose a firm that fits you socially. Those things matter.
You may want to stick with UVA or any T13 school you get admitted off the waitlist if you want go into teaching, especially legal academia.
I'm in the same boat @splitter_saga ! UVA is my top choice but the thought of paying sticker is really stressing me out. I'm interested in clerking/government but I'm not completely opposed to BL either. Are you going to the Admitted Student Open House?
If law professor is the only occupation you want, I think you'd want to narrow down the list further than that.
Yup! So excited to see the campus and C'ville
Yeah it does make sense I know haha just in sticker shock.. I guess it comes down to how likely it is that I think I can stay on their LRAP/how generous it is.
The odds get quite slim, but they are not nil either. I have seen a number of CVs with T13 (i.e. non-T5) degrees.
Pepperdine has a grad that clerked for SCOTUS. Does that mean you should seriously consider the school if that's the job you want?
That was an extreme example. But even though UVA has a decent number of grads that are now tenured professors, the super majority come from HYS.
Which is exactly why I specifically recommended the OP to opt for UVA or any T13s he gets into if (s)he has his or her eyes set on legal academia. There are two non-T13 CVs I saw, and those professors were hired a long, long time ago.
A T6 legal academia placement personnel commented that law schools are becoming increasingly receptive to non-HYS applicants (though I would love to see what "increasingly" really means).
Besides, UVA sounds like a far better option than the rest (WUSTL, USC, NU).
The best option would be to retake the LSAT and shoot for T6 (provided that the OP has a good GPA), of course. But if the OP is not willing to or cannot, and wants to make the best out of what (s)he has right now, then UVA or another T13 would be the way to go. For all we know, the OP might kick asses in law school and transfer into a T6.
UVA is a better school. But you'll pay to play. Gotta decide if what UVA provides is worth it for you. If you're going to leave biglaw after 3 years, it might not be worth it. That is just paying a lot to make a lot to pay a lot of loans etc.
My sentiments exactly.