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5 Likes
LSAT:140 GPA:3.5
thebrycewatkins
Alum Member
Okay guys. I'm being super vulnerable here. After going through the 7Sage Curriculum and taking a Kaplan live course, the highest score out of three LSATs was a 140. I freaked out on the logic games when using the tablet, but other than that I'm not sure what happened ----- So I graduated from the University of Arkansas with a 3.5 GPA in financial management and Investments. I have five years of professional experience in the finance arena along with Series 7 & 63 Certifications. Be honest with me. Do I have any chance of getting into ANY law school for Fall 2020 or do I just give up period?
Much love 7Sagers,
Bryce
Comments
How long have you been studying for?
Here’s what I’m going to tell you. Don’t give up. When I started I was at a 130. Three months went by and my score didn’t move. Not even a single point. Month 4 my score jumped 10 points. Month 5 my score jumped 10 points. I’m now only missing questions in rc and a few lrs. If one study method doesn’t work get another. If that one doesn’t work pick something else. You’re capable.
First, do not let a score on the LSAT stop you from being a potentially great Attorney. I don't have any facts or examples of your case, but I do believe some law school will accept you. Just keep your expectations realistic. There are definitely tier 3 and tier 4 schools that should admit you if you applied before their respective deadlines. It is just a matter of if they offer the quality of teaching in the area of law you want to practice. Most of the top schools (e.g. tier 1 and tier 2) at this point in the admission cycle are seeing thousands of applications with your GPA and LSAT scores that they are accustomed to admitting. This means that you will be compared to them at this filing point. My advice would be to wait till the very beginning of the admission cycle for 2021 (e.g. some schools take Applications as early as the middle of Sept.), if you were applying with your current scores to a tier 1 or tier 2 school. Why? If your application is one of the very first applications an admission counselor sees and the competition has not heated up with higher scores yet, you might get lucky and get admitted. The worst the tier 1 and tier 2 institutions can say is no. This will give you time to research the schools you could likely get into with your current scores in order to apply to those as well, whether the school in a certain tier will prepare you for the law you want to practice, decide if law school is for you and maybe think about the GRE since schools are considering this as an LSAT alternative. Again, I want to reiterate that I believe, but it may not be true, that a tier 3 or 4 school should admit you. I wouldn't encourage you to apply for any of the top 30 just yet, but if your other credentials are very good and top schools see you just had a hard time, you never know with a 100% certainty if you apply super early in the next admission cycle whether you will be turned down or admitted. Don't give up if law is really what you want to do.
@mlhinkle Can you provide insight on your study schedule?
Give us some more insight into your studying habits.... Did you do timed sections and PT's prior to the real test? If not and you just learned theory that could be why. If you aren't doing PT's and timed sections all that theory you've been learning is pretty worthless. You need to learn that stuff and then learn the LSAT and mix them. Learning only theory and principle would be like me having you take an online class about how to build a skyscraper and then giving you all the materials and asking you to build one when you never actually have. The LSAT is less about knowledge and more about skill. Through practice you find patterns in trick answers in LG, practice reading and understanding RC passages, and fool proofing logic games.
From an individual who just scored a 148 - Don't give up. I also have a Finance Degree and professional work experience and feel your pain.
You know what areas you're weak in, Logic Games is the easiest to improve (Just do games, and watch the videos on 7Sage of how JY sets them up, the hardest part is setting up the game and making the different worlds from the problem)
I'd recommend against doing timed PT's, until you're comfortable with the question types and the examination itself.
Nothing in life worthwhile is ever easy, never forget that, keep pushing forward.
What do you mean by "give up"? Give up on applying for Fall 2020 whatsoever? Or give up on trying again next year? For the former, I would say this: don't give up, you're already there. Like, you studied and worked, and now you just have to apply. You never know what's going to happen. The truth is all you can do is send the best possible application. That's your end of the deal. Being accepted is not on you, it's on the schools. Your job is supplying them with the best you can give right now. Do that.
If it doesn't work, that brings us to the latter, for which I would say this: it depend on how much law school is worth to you. Maybe there's something else you're more passionate about, I don't know. But I wouldn't approve of giving up if the reason is that you were rejected, and for now, the LSAT has not gone well for you. I would advise you to try and get better at the LSAT.
And also, everyone is vulnerable and struggles. It's just that most people like to hide it.
I'm gonna be brutally honest with you, that is a terrible score. You need to study more and get that thing at least 10 points higher and even then you would still be below average. Study for a few months. Get your score up and apply to a school with a later application deadline. It's possible but you can't show up with rookie numbers, that is just unacceptable.
Change your mindset. You shouldn't be willing to go to ANY law school. There are plenty of schools willing to admit you with a 140, but those schools probably aren't worth going to.
Bryce, if you can get a 3.5 gpa in undergrad, I'm pretty confident that you can score a 160-165 with about 4 months of full time studying. You have a good gpa, don't waste that, and definitely don't give up on law school because of a low LSAT. It's a 100% learnable exam.
Short answer. "Any" law school? Yes, there's always a chance. It just depends on how much money you want to spend on applications.
Advice that most everyone will be telling you? You need to raise that LSAT score... Like, 140 is way below the floor for "reputable" schools. If you consider yourself a man of average logical capabilities, you should definitely be able to reach at least 150. Your GPA would suggest that it's well within the realm of possibility.
140 with a 3.5 gpa!? How is that even possible?? You have to actually study for this test. With a 3.5 gpa you are clearly a smart guy don't waste that by studying half ass!
"After going through the 7Sage Curriculum and taking a Kaplan live course, the highest score out of three LSATs was a 140."
Are you doing full-length PTs as part of your studying? Passively watching videos isn't enough to develop the test-taking skills like timing, recognizing patterns in question types, developing intuition, etc.
Maybe start over and make 7Sage your primary approach.
Not here to beat you up on your score like others because I’m sure you know the reality of it. Obviously I’d say to keep studying and retake but that doesn’t seem to be what you’re looking for.
I think it depends on where you want to live/apply. For instance, in Minnesota (where I’m from) there’s only 3 law schools the university of Minnesota (top 25), university of st Thomas (100s), and Mitchell Hamline (100s). I think you could get into both st Thomas or Mitchell Hamline honestly. Maybe no scholarships but still get in. And if you stayed in Minnesota and did fairly well in school you’d easily find a job. Everyone here knows a lawyer that went to Mitchell Hamline. Again, not sure how well the jobs are but if you tell someone you’re going to law school it’s a guarantee they’ll mention Mitchell Hamline (this is a merged school so that also could play a factor).
You probably can get into a law school somewhere but it won’t be a law school you want to go to and you will be paying about $150,000 for just tuition.
Likely you won’t be in any position to pass the bar or get the job your are hoping for. Your GPA and professional experience both indicate you can score much higher. I am not sure what your study habits or like or how long you have been studying but waiting until next year and really taking the time to study will put you in a much better position for next year. I originally took the November 2018 LSAT. I hadn’t studied the right way or nearly long enough. I got an experimental section as the first one that was difficult. I had a panic attack when I realized that there was 10 questions left when the five minute warning was called and I didn’t finish the section. The test never really got much better though I rushed through the questions and managed to finish all the questions in the other sections. When the test was over I couldn’t remember a single question and was so sick from the anxiety. I convinced myself I did better than I actually did and when I got a 150 felt look a total failure. I got back to studying focusing more on understanding but the constant anxiety made it hard to focus. I took the test again in July and I tried every anti anxiety technique I could think of. I took that test only to work on anxiety not because I felt ready. I cancelled my score and just took January’s test on Monday. I can’t tell you what I will score ( I have been averaging about 168-170 practice) but I can tell you that I managed to control the anxiety much better. I know I will still get questions wrong and might not get the score I want. Just like you I really wanted to apply for 2020 but have resolved myself that if I have to wait another year to score well I will do so. It will be worth it in the long run! I would highly recommend going back to CC and really talking the time to understand the test. You can be in a much better position next admissions cycle!
Absolutely don't give up.
you DEFINITELY have a chance, it just depends on the school. My gut says look below the top 100. If you just need the paper and don't care about the school you will be able to find one. Schools off the top of my head that would be ok-ish with that score are Regents in Virginia Beach, MSU in Michigan (don't quote me on that one), possibly Catholic in DC, University of DC. I am going off of your GPA and work experience. Oklahoma City University (my state) - I think that is an OK score for them too. Granted, I did not confirm these schools when writing this. I just have spent a lot of time looking at everything and every where. (Regents because of location by the beach!!)
I also have your same certifications (and the 24). I think Catholic has a securities law program that would fit you if you are wanting to stay in the investments/financial world. Check them out - it may be right up your alley. But all schools in DC are private, and therefore not cheap.
Also, some schools will take scores up until June!
Hey there! I had a really low starting score too: a 144. I'm now in the high 150's and hoping to get in the 160s for the first time on my next practice exam. I work full time in the military which has made it difficult for me to maintain a constant study schedule, and so although I started 2 years ago with a (subpar) Princeton Review course, I studied on and off until I fully committed (when my job finally allowed) about six months ago. I also started listening to the Thinking LSAT podcast every week, and have gained a lot of interesting insight.
They recently had a podcast that spoke directly to your issue and this is basically what they said: this time of year is the worst time to apply because your chances go down the later in the application season that you apply. The longer you wait and the lower your LSAT score, the more likely you are to get rejected, or get accepted with no scholarships/grants. Won't you look like a WAY better applicant a year from now, with one more year of work experience under your belt, a better score, and a more well-thought out application?
Why not wait, study more, crush the LSAT, and apply next cycle? With your LSAT score, you'll pay full price and will likely only be admitted by predatory schools who just want your money. Your experience in finance should tell you that $150k+ in debt to a regional non-ranked school is likely not going to give you much of a return on your investment. This decision changes the rest of your life, so shouldn't you give it more consideration than a knee-jerk application to sub-par schools? You're better than that!
Also, I'd recommend Ellen Cassidy's The Loophole in Logical Reasoning: it took me from an average of -14 to -6 in two weeks on the LR. It is a life-changing book, and a great supplement to the 7Sage Curriculum. Also, consider how you were studying when you got that score: were you focusing in a quiet library early on a Saturday morning, or was it in a crowded cafe late in the evening after a long day of work? When experiencing a mental block, I've found that my study environment coupled with setting clear intentions for that study session make all the difference. Along these lines, both 7Sage and the Thinking LSAT guys agree that adding meditation to your study schedule can help improve your focus, especially when you are feeling beat down by the LSAT.
Before you make a decision, just remember that there are stories all over 7Sage of people who went from 140s to 160s and 70s after a prolonged study period (@lsatcantwin) . If they can do it, you can too!
Do you know somebody who knows someone??
The best advice you'll find on this thread is to apply for Fall 2021 and use the interim period to do hardcore LSAT prep, and working to save money once you hit your target score.
This could mean tens of thousands of dollars in additional scholarships, and getting into a T-50 or T-14 school. You will not regret it.
Real talk: not this cycle. Any school that would take you with that score is not worth going to, and is likely predatory. I don't mean to hurt your feelings, but it's true.
That being said, you are capable of so much more. A 3.5 in finances? Absolutely!! You can do this.
For some of us, the test is so different than how we think, we have to completely unlearn and relearn how to think. It's hard, but it's worth it. For some folks, this process takes a year or two of pretty constant study and thinking. It took me 1.5 years to get it done between school and work and family, but I will be a law student this fall in a great school. Give it another cycle. A higher score can get you in a good school, and with money to boot! Delaying a cycle, for me, allowed me to come up ~10 points, and I have full-ride offers now. Was that year delay worth 80k+? You betchya it was. Don't give up.
Bryce,
You and I are in a similar situation. I scored 145 but my GPA is lower than yours. I am also in the finance world (commercial lending) and it can be extremely time consuming. I was aiming just like you at trying to get in fall of 2020. Give yourself more time and get that score up as much as possible. Not only is it beneficial to wait in terms of school choice but also scholarships. I know it sucks having to wait...trust me... im 32, married and with a child, I should have started this journey years ago but I don't have a time machine so planning this journey logically is the only choice.
I wish you the best.
Cheers!