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Related Discussions
Crazy to retake a 173?
LSATstudent_15
Member
Hi all!
First, I'm extremely relieved/grateful for the score I received on the April Flex (173), especially because it was my second take. When I took it in January, I had a panic attack on the games section and ended up with a 167, so after that experience all I really wanted was a 173!
That said, my PT average going into the April flex was a 177. I scored a 173 on one of the PTs I took between April and January, and it was my lowest score, but generally I scored from 175-180. So a part of me is thinking I have a decent chance of getting a higher score and why not try? There's a chance too that the medians of HYS will move up for the next cycle, and I don't want to count myself out. My undergrad GPA is a 3.92 from a good school. Since law school is such a huge commitment though, why not get the highest score I can to set me up for the best admissions cycle possible?
One other consideration - I've taken every single PT available, and done every single game ever released. So I'm worried if I study for the June LSAT, I won't have enough materials and may be out of practice since I won't have fresh tests. Is that a real concern? I also truly could not have studied harder for the April LSAT and a part of me just wants to be happy about this score and move on.
Thank you so much for all your thoughts!
Comments
The potential benefits for the amount of work/risk is obviously diminished, but I don't think it'd be crazy... especially after this cycle. Your GPA puts you in a great position, but there were many high-17x applicants that just got killed out there this year. CLS's admissions dean straight up said that if you retake a 172 she would question your decision making abilities... but they also were obviously shooting for a median increase this year, and we have to assume medians will in fact increase here in a few months.
Also there's something to be said for your ability to make peace with your score or not. I think the ability of not having to wonder "what if" is worth a lot. We have a few people here who retook a 17x and were successful... but for every one that succeeds, there are many more that don't. I had to wrestle with this, but even after increasing my PT scores to the 178-180 range, I opted not to retake. Very individual, difficult choice, and I don't think you'd be wrong either way.
I would give my first-born (disclaimer: I'm child-free) to get a 170+ on the test! I can appreciate your really feeling the "what-if's" right now but this is an incredible accomplishment. Personally I'd start applying with it, but I'm not you.. Either way, congratulations.
I find myself in a very similar boat. I got a 172 twice last year, studied like crazy, had a PT average of 178 this time around, and just got a 174. I have a call with an admissions consultant tomorrow, but I’m feeling 80% like retaking. My 172 got me a ton of rejections this cycle, and my GPA isn’t as strong (3.75), so I was really hoping for a 176+. Curious to see how you decide.
Retake
I'm in a very similar situation. I have a 174, but was pting an average of 176.4 with several 179s. Ultimately, I don't think I'm going to retake the test. Instead, I'm going to focus on writing the best personal statements I can.
As far as retaking goes, I've heard three T-14 deans say that they would question someone's judgment for retaking a 173+ score. Even Mike Spivey (law admissions consultant) said something similar.
In the end, it's up to you. But realistically, unless you're aiming for Harvard/Yale, you're going to be at or above the median for EVERY law school next year. I don't think a higher LSAT score is going to help you get in anywhere.
First of all, congrats on the 173! Regardless of if you decide to retake that is great score. That being said, you are not crazy at all to consider retaking. Most schools will be going up 1-2 points in their LSAT medians next cycle. I know for a fact that Notre Dame for example will be at a 168, crazy because just last cycle they were at a 166. With your GPA you have a real shot a HYS but your shot would be great improved with a 175+. You can take a look at law school admissions to see what I am talking about but this cycle has been insane! Lots of people with more than 10 waitlists, people with 4.0 reapplying next cycle, people with 180's not offered any money at all for schools in the T-6. If you think you may have left some points on the table, I would retake. Just make sure you are still applying early.
I echo the other comments and agree that you should retake! You sound like you really believe that you can achieve a higher score, so do it. As for running out of materials to prep, maybe you can retake preptests that you have done very early on in your prepping stage? This way your brain might have had time to refresh and kind of forget the answers. You can also spend some time reviewing any notes you have made and pinpoint the types of questions you tend to get wrong and work on those. Also, since you are already prepping in the high 170s, a break from the exam before your next test date may just do the trick honestly.
I was similar. Averaging 176 on PTs and got a 173 on my first take. I retook, felt really good about the second take, and got a 174. My goal was 177. It was a good decision for me, and I think I'll retake again, but I've been so burnt out by this cycle I don't want to think about doing it again right now. For what it's worth, extreme splitter that's been rejected at 9 schools, waitlisted at 3, (one in the teens, one in the 20's, one in the low 30's) and still waiting to hear from freaking Minnesota.
Hello! Just wondering, what schools are you aiming for? I have a similar GPA and I've been thinking about at what point in the 170s I'd stop retaking. Why are you thinking about retaking a 174? I suppose it would be safer to do so, but you're already above the median of YLS and HLS at least from last year's median. Would love to hear what you think and what the consultant has to say!
@"Learned Astronomer" so I’m somewhat eating crow - the consultant was pretty against my retaking. I was hoping / praying for T3, but my GPA is sub-median, and the consultant thinks their median for this cycle might be 175. Insane. Tbh, I mostly want to retake because I did better on my PTs, I enjoy the LSAT, and I think I can do better. The goal I set was 175, so it’s sorta bittersweet to miss that, but what I heard yesterday was that retaking wouldn’t look good.
Thanks for your response! Was this a Spivey or a 7Sage consultant? The consultant thinks that all three of H, Y, and S will have a 175 median? Do you mind sharing more about what he or she said against retaking?
I'm actually in a similar position as you. When you say "I did better on my PTs, I enjoy the LSAT, and I think I can do better" that resonates with me very much! Have you decided to stick with the 174 and NOT retake, then? I don't know if you've seen the podcast by the HLS and YLS admissions team, but they did also say that retaking such a high score might look bad. But I'm not sure at what point that applies now that it sounds like medians are going up.
It was a Spivey consultant for a free consultation, and not quite - they only mentioned that there’s “a chance” HLS will have a 175 median this year. (Sorry for confusing prose on my part there in the previous post.) They seemed to think Duke, for instance, would go from 169 to 171.
I’ve missed the June signup deadline, and I don’t think I’ll sign up for August, but I can’t say I’m totally committed against it yet, tbh. I’d love to take it again - I enjoy it, and studying kept me sane during a pandemic - but alas.
Also - this is just me, just reporting one person’s opinion, and YMMV.
I’m also at a point where I think the entire culture around this test is unhealthy, and 7Sage seems like the last bastion of empathy or decency - but that’s a rant I’ll save for later, haha.
Concur. Reddit has some good peeps but it's like the wild west out there. Edit: actually the powerscore forums are very well moderated as well.
I was so determined to retake but I ended up not doing so on the advice of like 4 different consultants, 4 professors, 2 career services deans, the deans of the 2 schools I'm hoping for WL movement at, and a bunch of alumni. I obviously needed some convincing.
I do think that regardless about what adcoms say, numbers still matter the most. Yes they very well may take pause at a 170+ retake, but IMO it will be more like, "thats a weird retake, but they help us hit our targets now so cool." Maybe it's a bit of trauma after what just went down this cycle, but if I were applying next cycle, I don't think I'd be happy with anything lower than a 175, and definitely wouldn't be confident with even a 180.
@canihazJD @"Hal Incandenza" would you guys mind elaborating on what you mean about 7Sage being the last bastion of empathy or decency? What happened on the other forums?
I've definitely noticed that people on here, from what I've seen, tend to be willing to go the extra mile for this test, which is an attitude I greatly admire.
@canihazJD are you also a splitter, when you say you wouldn't be happy with anything lower than a 175? As a 3.7Xer I definitely want to be above H's and Y's medians. And right now at 173, I think it's doable. At 174, it might still be achievable. But I think if the median goes up to a 175, it'll be hard to test at such higher a level consistently on my PTs, where I might think "I can likely hit a 176 or higher on test day."
Obviously, there's luck at every point on this test. But I think the difference between a 175 or a 177 or a 180 probably just comes down to pure luck. What do you think?
This is also why, no matter what the highest median becomes, it wouldn't necessarily make sense to retake. At some level the risk of getting a lower score just becomes too great, doesn't it? I feel like retaking a 174 would be quite risky. But I'd love to hear your thoughts.
@"Learned Astronomer" Indeed! I could be wrong, but the way I think my test broke down, I missed 4 to get the 174, and if I got even one more answer correct, it would have been a 176. Some luck there for sure, I suppose, but I try to keep the mindset of “it’s on me!” Honestly, I think the killer for me was the stress. I knew I was taking the real test, so I seized up a bit. My best PTs have been done mostly on the couch lol - no stress. There’s also the variability of where the test came from - if I retake in august, I’ll study the 50s PTs more.
Maybe before this cycle, but I think it's worth it after seeing the results this year, especially since your average PT was so high going into it. Maybe you can practice in a less uncomfortable environment to try to simulate test day nerves? Especially if you didn't feel like the exam was any more difficult than your recent PTs.
That’s an excellent idea. Maybe even setting goals / rewards / punishments for myself as “stakes” so the PTs also feel like they have some consequences … hmm, I like that a lot
There is a lot of misinformation and worse, intentionally incorrect information, that is passed around unchecked on reddit.
I was a splitter at Chicago IIRC... maybe 1 more based on GPA, but above median everywhere else outside of HYS. Don't quote me on that. I was saying that more based on the acceptance outcomes we can see for this cycle where even a high 170s score wasn't confidence inspiring in the T14. I feel like low 170s performed like a high 160s did last year.
You're not wrong, but I also think we can make our own luck to a certain degree.
I wouldn't retake a 174. This cycle if you weren't getting in with a 174, I doubt you were getting in with a 180. Outliers don't affect medians. A super high score does differentiate your app, but the value is diminished if they've locked their target median. Now if medians go up, thats a different story. Personally I'd put the retake threshold at whatever is above median at your target school, but this is just considering the retake itself and no other factors which obviously doesn't happen... for instance if I was above GPA median, and at LSAT median I wouldn't retake just to be above both. Then there's time, other acceptances, mental health, family... lots of factors and super subjective call.
I'm gonna be the one to say yes, you would be crazy.
173 is a fair bet for HYS's medians for next cycle. That 100% extra people who scored a 175+ in the early flex exams are not going to be waiting for next cycle to apply. They have everything they need now, why would they wait?
Scores in general and the number of applicants will also go down. The economy is doing well, thus raising the opportunity cost of spending time studying for the LSAT or going to law school at all. If you apply in October, you'll be a very appetizing candidate right from the beginning. A guaranteed 173/3.92 coupled with strong softs would look very good to HYS.
People scoring in the mid 170s typically don't increase their score upon further retake attempts ( https://www.reddit.com/r/LSAT/comments/n2kn90/amazing_resource_from_lsac_for_retaking_the_lsat/ ). I wouldn't be so confident that you'll do even better even with your PT average.
Counterpoints: There are over 42k people signed up for the June LSAT alone... they could lose 33% and it would still be the biggest administration in over a decade.
The new format did nothing to address the majority of the likely factors contributing to the prevalence of high scores.
Its hard to say schools won't increase medians given their ability to basically cherry pick applicants this cycle... even (maybe even especially) those that already had 173 medians.
Not saying you're wrong... just moving the conversation along.
Thanks! Why the 50s?
Oh that was just the era I happened to neglect the most, haha. Lots of good debate and discussion going on here - I like it!
@VerdantZephyr As someone who will be going into this next cycle as an extreme splitter as well, I'm really curious to hear how the rest of this cycle panned out for you. Also, how early did you apply this past cycle?
@HLoom1222 This is super old now, but I haven't been on the forums as of late because I was ready to take a break from law school nonsense and, after moving internationally, went straight into a 70 hour a week job. I didn't get in anywhere last cycle, but I didn't really fight for it either because I am just not going without substantial scholarship support.
For the record I retook and improved from a 173 to a 174. Still well under my 177 goal and 176 average, but it is well above median anywhere I have a chance of getting into. I was rejected at 10 schools and waitlisted at a top 20, a mid 20's, and a low 30's. The mid-20 school and to a lesser extent the low 30 school expressed a lot of interest in me and I survived several rounds of waitlist cutdowns but never reached out to them because there was definitely not going to be that scholarship offer. I'm reapplying this year and don't really have anything to share besides a low 20's school expressing a lot of interest in me including a handwritten note from the director.