R & R or Attend law School Fall 2021

Comments

• canihazJD Alum Member Sage ⭐

  April 2021 8318 karma

  What's your current score?
• karko2525 Member

  May 2021 620 karma

  @canihazJD currently my highest is a 166 on file (took it twice total). I was scoring 168/169 occasionally 170 before the exam but I am a highly anxious person so I’m guessing nerves got to me on test day. Not a huge discrepancy from practice scores obviously but I feel like I can get a 170, but it is a gamble in this situation.

  On a side note, do you know anything about big law chances for UCI? I’ve been scouring reddit for some answers but nothing is really clear... may have to shoot an email to UCI admissions... I’d like to end up in the bay even if that means I have to work a couple years in SoCal ( if I do attend UCI). I think my fear is whether the next cycle will be just as much of a crap shoot/ horror fest... I just feel like I underperformed because I got waitlisted/ rejected from schools that were supposedly my safeties according to 7Sage (85-90% chance based on stats) but I’m sure this was true for most candidates this past cycle..
• 1 Like

  robet.j.lee97 Member

  May 2021 28 karma

  Why did you get interested in Big Law so suddenly?
• karko2525 Member

  May 2021 620 karma

  @"robet.j.lee97" I have always had an interest in it, but I am not dead set on BL. But I know now that I would like to keep the door open so I can explore every legal avenue that I am interested in. In addition, BL is a safe bet for most who want to earn a stable living for a bit and then pivot to a less lucrative legal career so I don’t want to shut the door on that just yet.
• 2 Likes

  robet.j.lee97 Member

  May 2021 28 karma

  UCI's Big Law number is about 25.9% of 69.9% full time bar passage required 2020 graduate. Whether that's high or too low is how you see it.

  Personally I don't think R&R is not a great idea as it's hard to predict what will happen next year. I think you are assuming next cycle will be equal or easier than this year, but I'm sure that's what last year's R&R people thought too.
• karko2525 Member

  May 2021 620 karma

  @"robet.j.lee97" I don’t think the big law numbers for UCI are terrible so I know it is a possibility, but I think it’ll be harder for me if I don’t perform at a certain level. I think that’s my main concern haha of course I will put my all into law school, but you just never know with law school grades. There’s such a steep learning curve, but I do see myself benefiting from the smaller class sizes at UCI. Maybe in retrospect, it is a better fit for me than a bigger T14.

  That’s a fair reasoning for the 2021 cycle and I agree. I am actually not assuming that it will be any easier honestly.. I am just wondering if it’ll be more difficult which I guess it might be due to the inflated medians and likelihood of yet another larger applicant pool.. but I figured I would consider R&R because I think I can break into the 170’s. However, I wonder if that is enough Lol Of course I will also add a year of work experience, but this past cycle was absolutely unpredictable and it showed me that admissions is basically anyone’s game. I appreciate your insight though. It really helps talking to someone about this rather than overthinking it all in my thoughts. Do you know anything about transferring in law school? Only considering transferring in case I want to try for my top choice again
• 1 Like

  canihazJD Alum Member Sage ⭐

  May 2021 8318 karma

  https://www.lstreports.com/schools/irvine/jobs

  Your current score is within expected range of your PT scoring, and honestly for this cycle, Irvine is not underperforming.

  I'm not saying you shouldn't R&R but I wouldn't bank on a score increase unless you commit to bumping your PT average considerably. IMO if you need a 170+, you should be comfortably scoring in the mid 170s on PTs, especially if you already know you tend to incur a test day penalty. Note: not "I can get a 170+", but I am consistently scoring high enough that on a bad day, I'll likely still break 170. That may mean taking much longer than you expect... even applying late or skipping an entire cycle.

  Now you definitely could do it with just a no-prep retake... it's possible, but at least for me, if I'm giving up Irvine this year, I'm sure as hell going to make sure my next application is far better than my current one.

  If you've got the cash, you could always deposit and take the August test, then just withdraw if you end up scoring higher... maybe also asking for a scholarship bump at the last minute because what the hell?

  Everything is pointing to another difficult cycle, potentially with less scholarship money to go around.

  Re: transferring, do not attend a school you wouldn't be happy graduating from. Transfers are possible of course but don't ever count on it. You have no idea what your 1L grades will look like at this point.

  Out of curiosity, what is your #1 choice?
• 1 Like

  karko2525 Member

  May 2021 edited May 2021 620 karma

  @canihazJD thanks for the in depth outlook on R&R. I definitely did not underperform for Irvine, but I guess I'm salty about the other schools that would have been my safeties if that makes sense. For instance, BU and WashU were both schools that were essentially safeties for me according to the 7sage predictor. But again, I know others like me who had the same predictor results were also barred out of those two schools. I am still on the wait list for BU but I'm not super drawn to doing much about that.

  As for the LSAT, I definitely agree with what you've said. I was just going to try taking some PTs again to see how I fare and if it doesn't work, Irvine it is. I was mainly contemplating because I thought I would get a 168/169 on my second take so I was not satisfied with my score but applied anyways since i took the October? Test so I was just rushing to apply. I still haven't fully decided what to do, but I think I'm leaning towards Irvine if my PTs aren't promising. As I've mentioned, I don't have an issue with Irvine. In fact, I love their program and I think they do really well in training students to be well rounded and efficient legal practitioners, but I am really just hung up on the rank because of my desire to leave the door open for BL. UCI is also a newer school so I'm worried about reputation and alumni connections but it seems like they're gaining traction in the legal field and their reputation is building itself. Do you think I still have a decent chance at BL if I attend UCI? That's my main concern honestly along with overall employment but that's just a personal fear that doesn't really have anything to do with the school itself lol

  But overall, I would be content/ satisfied graduating from UCI if transferring doesn't work out. I think it's a great school. I'm just hung up on the idea of needing to attend a T14 for BL or better employment outcomes. On an aside, my top choice was Berkeley and NU (Stanford too but that was just a dream that I was having fun with lol). UCB is convenient for me and was my top choice for that reason but I know in my gut, it probably wouldn't have been the best fit for my personal/ emotional needs. Then for NU, still waiting to see if I can get off the wait list but there's not much I can do lol but I guess everything happens for a reason and I think that's what happened here now that I think about it. Everything will fall into place. I just don't know how yet. Sorry for the rambling but thank you for your insight! Really appreciate it.
• 1 Like

  FindingSage Alum Member ⭐

  May 2021 2042 karma

  I also applied with the same LSAT score. I didn’t even get waitlisted at UCI. I am assuming your GPA is much better than mine but unless it is basically a 4.0 there is no way that WashU was a safety. There median is 169 and I would say that they are aiming for 170. Acceptances/ rejections/waitlists and were all over the place this cycle. Personally I am holding onto a couple of waitlists and planning on re applying. I did get into a couple of schools- one with half the other with almost full scholarship but both are regional schools even though they are fairly well ranked and I am really hesitant about that. My LSAT score average is much better than what I applied with- I just need to hit it on test day. So my thoughts at this point are to retake the LSAT and re apply early. I think UCI is a great school, congrats on being accepted, but depending on scholarship I can see it not being the right choice. The cost of living is high as well. If you haven’t already check out law school transparency. Spending time researching was what made me decide to pass on these schools.
• karko2525 Member

  May 2021 edited May 2021 620 karma

  Thanks for sharing your journey and thought process on R&R. I think the predictor gave me a high chance for WashU based on what happened in previous cycles. Yes, their median is 169 but the predictor results for me (if I recall correctly) was around 85%? which I see as a safety (maybe I'm wrong for thinking that haha) and the main reason I applied there.. The same was true for BU. I'm not sure what the metrics are for the predictor, but there were a couple like those in the T20 that indicated I had a pretty good shot for admission at those schools. I actually don't have a 4.0 but it's on the higher end I suppose. I can't say why they gave me a high likelihood for washU but I took it as a good sign haha I got wait listed there this cycle so oh well. On a side note, I do think the predictor has been updated because when I entered my stats just now, the results were different. But overall, I guess I just feel like I could have had way more options if I applied for the 2019 cycle instead.. but I'm sure most of us can agree that this cycle was essentially a nightmare. I am definitely aware I am not the only one feeling cheated out of certain opportunities that would have been possible in a normal cycle.

  As for UCI, I received pretty decent scholarship that allows for minimal debt which I am very grateful for. I just want to make sure I am making the right decision for myself with all factors in consideration. But honestly, I'll probably end up there if I'm being honest since my LSAT goal for R&R isn't easy to achieve. I am shocked for your UCI decision though. A 166 is pretty much median at UCI and should give you a decent shot in a normal cycle lol but like you said, this cycle has been all over the place. I've seen some amazing acceptances and some really crazy rejections for people who were super qualified. That aside though, congrats on your other acceptances and good luck to you on R&R. I think you can definitely get a higher score and get into even better schools next year if the waitlists do not pan out!
• 2 Likes

  canihazJD Alum Member Sage ⭐

  May 2021 edited May 2021 8318 karma

  I was just reading someone's post on reddit about applying with a 180/3.75 this cycle and pulling one single acceptance to UT. I got WL'ed last year as high as CLS with a 158 and got flat out rejected there this year with a 172. Anecdotal, but just scour reddit for recaps and you'll see no shortage of similar experiences, even where we know the info is significantly skewed toward better outcomes. That's not to say people weren't hugely successful as well... it was just obviously much, much more competitive. I feel lucky to have pulled GULC and Cornell with good scholarships and am sitting on 7 WLs which is nuts. In their webinar Yale said their WL is several hundred vs the 100 they usually have. There doesn't seem to be much indication that volume come down next cycle. I think this is just how it's going to be for a bit.

  There are over 42000 people signed up for the June test right now which is insane, and the new test format still allows for almost all of the same advantages that likely contributed to the current scoring distribution. Add to that, the legions of people with unsatisfying results this cycle that will reapply. Short of a massive economic recovery or something else that turns people away from the legal profession, I'd say next cycle will still be very competitive.

  If you R&R you'll want to both have good numbers and significantly differentiate yourself from others with the same numbers. If you are confident you can do this, go for it, and definitely shoot for the highest LSAT possible. TBH if I were forced to R&R again, I wouldn't be happy with any score given what just went down, but for me and my particular app package, an R&R this year would be too big of a risk to gamble an acceptance in hand away on.

  IMO predictors are worthless right now, at least until new medians are fed in, and even then, peculiarities of app cycles are going to be much more volatile... I mean they weren't that reliable to begin with. It's hard, given the emphasis we see placed on it as applicants, but you have to look past rank and focus on your goals, happiness, and the ability of a school to get you there with minimal debt. There are obviously "better" schools to go to for overall versatility of your JD, but I think Irvine still give you a good shot at BL if you want it. Just be realistic about what it takes and hustle. A lot of people got turned off of UCI because of its downslide in rankings... but not much has changed there. Chermerinsky leaving to Berkeley was the biggest thing and that should give you a rudimentary image of how arbitrary rank is. It's not crazy to assume they would have continued their climb had he stayed. The importance of ranking will dissipate as your outcome determinants shift more toward your quality of work.

  Not trying to talk you in/out of any course of action. I R&R'ed and it was the best decision I ever made, but I was throwing away outcomes like BC with no money, Pepperdine, Cardozo, etc. There are just a lot of things to consider, and even more so this year.
• 1 Like

  emmorens Core Member

  May 2021 1470 karma

  I say if your gut is telling you to reapply go for it!

  You've already got a great score on record and there's even a chance you could get into more schools without rewriting; just given that this cycle was so crazy and with the obvious hope that next won't be as bad.

  Another perk is that you may even have a more 'close to normal' educational experience in terms of COVID if you wait a year from now. I'm in Canada and all the schools are projected to begin online with the hope of that changing come second term; which ultimately means less time in class meeting peers, networking etc! Online law school seems like no fun lol
• karko2525 Member

  May 2021 edited May 2021 620 karma

  @canihazJD first of all, congrats on your acceptances at GULC and Cornell ! Those are both awesome schools and with scholarship, even better. I totally agree with everything you've said. I've been thinking about this for the past few days and I do feel the odds are stacked against R&R. I do think I can break into the 170's, but I don't know that I can set myself apart enough for it to count and propel me into higher ranked schools. This past cycle made me feel like I had better save the world and cure cancer before thinking of applying to the T6 lmao I'm still undecided but I think I'm leaning towards Irvine if my PTs don't yield any significant increase in my LSAT score.

  On the other hand, I know what you mean about rankings. I'll admit that my brain is holding onto prestige and I think that's part of the reason for this indecision with Irvine. The predictor tools were definitely useless for this cycle, but I was using them as guides before I realized just how nuts this cycle was (back in October/ november). So I clung onto that hope throughout only to be terribly disappointed 😂 I also think rankings are bogus to a degree like with the UCI drop. At first, it definitely turned me off to the school.. but after hearing the current Dean explain the metrics and reveal that Irvine actually went up for all other categories that actually mattered, I felt much more reassured. I agree that Chermerinsky definitely helped UCI climb, but I think the school is slowly climbing regardless of his presence. I am sad to see that the current Dean will be leaving, but I hope the next Dean will continue to foster the growth of UCI. They have definitely come a long way for only being 10-11 years old. I've heard companies / firms don't look at where you went to law school after you've gotten your first/ second job? By then, it's more about your skill set/ quality of work.

  Thanks for sharing your journey though and you definitely made the right choice with R&R!! I'm glad it worked out for you. Hopefully, I'll know what to do soon, but thanks for conversing with me. It brings things into perspective. Are you leaning towards any one law school? Best of luck to you wherever you attend
• 1 Like

  karko2525 Member

  May 2021 620 karma

  @emmorens thank you for the advice! I'm just juggling a bunch of factors and possibilities for R&R and Irvine. It seems like the next cycle will not lighten up in terms of competition and amount of applicants overall. Still deciding, but I may just go with Irvine since they check most of my boxes 🙈 I just need to get over rankings and realize that I can still be successful at a non T14 law school and that BL is still possible outside of T14. I think Reddit poisoned my brain to a degree 😂😭

  Edit: UCI already said theyre planning for in person classes as long as cases don't spike. I don't know that I would survive law school over zoom. Sounds insane 😭