Want to know if NYU is realistic.

seth.corley · July 2015

So here's the thing. According to NYU's website, their 25% LSAT is a 167. I got a 166. I have slightly above a 4.0 in my undergrad major, however, for a particularly hard major, and I also have relevant international experience (I've been to Israel, Mexico twice, and Tanzania. While I was in Tanzania, I literally sat down and talked, through a translator, to a missionary who was a native Tanzanian but worked on Zanzibar, about how he'd been persecuted, such as literally having his house burnt down for his faith, while he was sleeping. Now I'm organizing charity boxing to fund raise for him. This is just one example.) Also, I am really involved in my community, working at the homeless shelters, mentoring youth, regularly preaching at my Church, and have a lot of leadership experience (In high school, for example, I received a character award that my football team gave in honor of a player who had died.)I also have some internship experience with the DA. Lastly, I can be very sincere in explaining why I want to go to NYU. They have such an intellectually cosmopolitan and stimulating atmosphere, the #1 international law program in the country, and a number of intellectuals I really look up to who either teach there or lecture regularly (Peter K. Unger, Michael Walzer, etc.), and they also have the type of loan repayment where it's not unrealistic to work public or nonprofit sectors.

These are my weaknesses: I have a weak LSAT score, I don't know any foreign languages (and aspire to practice foreign law eventually, and specifically, criminal law in one of a couple developing nations), and I don't have any advantages going for me as far as legacy enrollment or affirmative action. Also, I need to figure out how to pay for this whole thing, and I didn't perform well enough to get any merit scholarships, at least as far as I know. Also, I have to work to pay for my school, so retaking the LSAT is a little unrealistic. That may make it sound like I'm disadvantaged, but I'm really not compared to a lot of people, and I'm not gonna sit here and go "well screw those people who get that money," cuz' honestly, a lot of people need it more than I do. I already know I probably don't qualify for any of that though.

bonjoursm · July 2015

A 166 is far from a "weak score." You can get into many respectable law schools with that score (some even with $$). For example, My friend, who also earned a 166 was admitted into Emory (19th) with a $60k scholarship.

NYC12345 · July 2015

@seth.corley
First off I would like to congratulate you on getting a 166 and graduating with a 4.00+ gpa. My LSAC gpa is currently a 4.03, so I am in the same boat as you (in terms of gpa, that is). I would say that your chances are not good, but it doesn't hurt to apply. Also, some might suggest EDing to NYU, but I think that's a waste of an ED app because NYU doesn't give a large ED boost. You will most likely get into Georgetown, Cornell, Michigan, Berkeley (it's a strong possibility, provided you write a strong personal statement), UVA (an ED will do the trick) and a slight shot at Penn (which will be a better use of an ED app). Let me know if you have any further questions. I've spent hundreds of hours researching cycles for 4.00 applicants and, I must say, it really distinguishes you from the rest of the applicant pool. A 4.00 is not easy to come by for a school, so they have an incentive to accept you and raise their median. Let me know how your cycle goes.

GSU Hopeful · July 2015

@bonjoursm said:
My friend, who also earned a 166 was admitted into Emory (19th) with a $60k scholarship.

What was her GPA if you don't mind me asking? And how far removed from it was she?

GSU Hopeful · July 2015

If you're friend was in fact a she... I meant to type their.

jdawg113 · July 2015

It does look like it may be possible(there doesn't seem to be anyone above a 3.84/166 on LSN that applied so not much to go by there) but as far as $ there is probably not a whole lot if any to be had. Now I don't know your situation but I just wanna say I would reconsider retaking. If the 166 was your first take there is a lot of time and room for improvement. What was your studying like? How long did you study for? did you study 25-30 hrs a week or 40+? While you may need to work to pay for school... but a couple of thousand $ lost by retaking (assuming you miss work or w.e) could potentially save you tens of thousands if not more. It may be that retaking is actually unrealistic but if it is because of needing to pay for school, I would sit down and really consider all options and possibilities. NYU at sticker really isn't the greatest idea(nowhere at sticker is almost) and with that kind of GPA, you can get some awesome money and almost guaranteed admission with just a 3 pt increase

Pacifico · July 2015

If you want NYU, don't leave it to chance by wasting your GPA with a non comparable LSAT and don't leave money on the table. You're pretty much not going to be able to work during law school so scholarship money is very important. I am sure you do need to work to support yourself now, but a higher LSAT is an investment in your future. Of course, a higher LSAT is not guaranteed, but in my mind you're almost throwing away all that hard work to get a 4.0 by not at least attempting a retake or two.

International law is super hard to break into and while their program may be great, it seems easier to transition into the field from elsewhere. Many people seem to go the big law route, ask for work on their international stuff and then later on lateral out to somewhere more directly in the field. You definitely don't need NYU to do that and I'd definitely recommend researching the paths that people take to your desired outcome to better inform your choices.

For what it's worth I think the only place worth EDing (binding) is NU for the 50 grand a year. Everywhere else you're just throwing away your bargaining leverage.

NYC12345 · July 2015

@jdawg113
@Pacifico
I do not think he should retake. Here's why. Let's say you take a year off, retake the exam, and get a $50k scholarship to NYU. While a scholarship of that amount is great you are actually losing money, that is, if you plan on going into Biglaw. You will sacrifice an annual salary of $160k plus a bonus, which usually ranges between $15k and $160K. So, while you might think you are saving money, you are really losing money.

gs556 · July 2015

I'm with @Pacifico. Retaking your LSAT to get a higher score is an investment that could be worth thousands of dollars, and you should do so if at all possible.

Personally, I gave up the opportunity of obtaining a summer internship to focus solely on getting a good LSAT. I "lost" out on at least $8,000 of income, but I obtained a score that puts me in a great position for my dream school. I regret nothing.

jdawg113 · July 2015

@alexandergreene93 said:
While a scholarship of that amount is great you are actually losing money, that is, if you plan on going into Biglaw. You will sacrifice an annual salary of $160k plus a bonus, which usually ranges between $15k and $160K. So, while you might think you are saving money, you are really losing money.

that is assuming he makes it to a reasonable school that wont be overpriced for him and will allow him the same chance to get that big law... depending on the school it might diminish the chances of getting that big law job paying that $ while retaking and getting $ at NYU could mean less debt and better chances at a big law job and a better paying one... obviously nothing is a sure thing but its all chances, so better chance

Pacifico · July 2015

@alexandergreene93 who said anything about taking a year off? He's got October and December to take the LSAT and then apply. It doesn't sound like he's applied yet or he wouldn't be inquiring about getting in there.

And for what it's worth no first year associates are making close to a 160k bonus.

NYC12345 · July 2015

@Pacifico
I know for a fact Wachtell's bonuses are AT LEAST 100% of an associate's base salary.
Susan Godfrey pays 1st year associate's around $100k if they bill a lot and produce high quality work.
Bodies Schiller pays top billers around $50k the first year.

Pacifico · July 2015

I was going to say only Wachtell would do that since they used to give 200% bonuses, but I thought I had seen that Wachtell was down to around 50% but upon researching it I couldn't find any of the data again. That being said, you're likely not getting Wachtell outside the top 5% of any school you attend. Furthermore, such bonuses are extreme outliers as overall average bonuses across all lengths of employment for associates are only $15,000-$100,000, with the higher end skewing towards senior associates. You can't rely on even landing a job in big law, much less a hefty bonus, and since it sounds like he's comfortable with loan forgiveness, I don't think a high salary is really his goal.

seth.corley · July 2015

Thank you guys a lot! Maybe I should figure out how to retake. To answer your question about my LSAT studying, I put in a couple hours a day for about 6 months. I wasn't planning on having a concentration in International Law, but on practicing Criminal Law for a while and then transferring to nonprofit foreign law. Basically, I would love to give disadvantaged peoples something close to public prosecution. This semester I'm working a lot more than last though, so I guess I just need to figure out if I can cram more LSAT studying in, and something significant, not just a dinky little two hours a week. Thank you guys a lot though!

NYC12345 · July 2015

@Pacifico
I think you can rely on getting a Biglaw job if you go to a T14 (minus Georgetown). Over 65% (usually more) at most of the T14 schools get either a a Biglaw job or federal clerkship. Most of the other people don't want Biglaw. They want to do PI or get a corporate job.

NYC12345 · July 2015

@seth.corley
Now that I know definitively that you want to do PI, my advice is completely different. Why not go to a school like Fordham with close to a full scholarship? Why would you pay sticker at a T14 if you plan on getting a lower-paying job that students at regional schools can get? I understand the T14 has prestige, but you are looking to do PI, not become a partner at Cravath.

c.janson35 · July 2015

@seth.corley said:
These are my weaknesses: I have a weak LSAT score, I don't know any foreign languages (and aspire to practice foreign law eventually, and specifically, criminal law in one of a couple developing nations), and I don't have any advantages going for me as far as legacy enrollment or affirmative action.

I would hardly say that lacking a foreign language and legacy-status are weaknesses to your application; while having them they may slightly improve your app, the lack of them by no means harms it. Also, by definition, 25% of NYU's incoming class has an LSAT score of 167 or lower, so while your chances aren't promising, you're not out of the running for a spot in their class. Anne Choacas has written on the Powerscore LSAT blog, "If your numbers are at or below the 25th percentile, your chances of admission (numerically-speaking) are low. You basically would have to write your way into the school, using your softs to try to convince AdComs that you'd be a solid addition to their incoming class, despite your low numerical indicators."

It sounds like you do have good softs with your volunteering and international experience, so much so that you may be able to write a very compelling argument for yourself in your personal statement. But I would echo what @pacifico has said about retaking the LSAT and your overall application. Your goal is obviously to present the strongest application you can, and with the work that you have done in undergrad you are nearly there. I wouldn't let a weaker LSAT score (comparatively speaking, with your goal to get into NYU) derail your chances and take away the work you have done so far to put yourself in the enviable position of being a strong candidate for admission into one of the top law schools in the country. Even a 3 point increase would significantly improve your chances, which may only be the difference of 2 or 3 raw points on the exam. If you set your sights on the October exam you will still be able to apply early in the cycle, and you have just under 3 months to get in some quality studying around your work schedule.

Personally, I think the choice is fairly obvious that you should retake. You've already come so far so don't cut yourself short now! With a 4.0 undergrad GPA you've already demonstrated that you're disciplined enough to excel academically, so just apply some of that mojo to studying for a few more months before October!

Pacifico · July 2015

@alexandergreene93 said:
I think you can rely on getting a Biglaw job if you go to a T14 (minus Georgetown). Over 65% (usually more) at most of the T14 schools get either a a Biglaw job or federal clerkship. Most of the other people don't want Biglaw. They want to do PI or get a corporate job.

I agree with this for the most part, I just don't think it's a guarantee based on simply getting into the T14. You've still got to put the work in to do decently well in school, network enough, and get a decent SA to really solidify your chances.

@alexandergreene93 said:
Now that I know definitively that you want to do PI, my advice is completely different. Why not go to a school like Fordham with close to a full scholarship? Why would you pay sticker at a T14 if you plan on getting a lower-paying job that students at regional schools can get? I understand the T14 has prestige, but you are looking to do PI, not become a partner at Cravath.

I generally agree with this as well, though I could see how the T14 could provide him with a greater number of pathways to getting where he wants, and if he can couple a decent scholarship with loan forgiveness then it might just be a wash in the long run.

nicole.hopkins · July 2015

@Pacifico said:
I am sure you do need to work to support yourself now, but a higher LSAT is an investment in your future. Of course, a higher LSAT is not guaranteed, but in my mind you're almost throwing away all that hard work to get a 4.0 by not at least attempting a retake or two.

Higher LSAT score is the investment you need to be making now, OP. That's going to be your best leverage to get school paid for.

As far as NYU goes ... Man, oh man. Friend of mine (don't really give out many A's where I went to undergrad but this guy had a solid GPA) with a 174 graduated from NYU with close to $200k in debt. His big law job just means he can make his epic loan payments. Cool... I guess? Golden shackles for the fail.

So, uh, yeah. Retake if you feel you must go to NYU. Get as much scholarship money as possible. Please talk to a financial advisor before going into NYU-style debt if you're planning to do PI work. The numbers are a little scary. Don't forget cost of living in GV. And I hope you have a sense of the debt-to-income ratio you're going to be dealing with unless you get some very serious scholarship money.

@alexandergreene93 said:
While a scholarship of that amount is great you are actually losing money, that is, if you plan on going into Biglaw. You will sacrifice an annual salary of $160k plus a bonus, which usually ranges between $15k and $160K. So, while you might think you are saving money, you are really losing money.

... what???? How ... would that be losing money ... Do you seriously mean because these supposedly "in the bag" outlier incomes would be happening a year later? How is that a loss or even a sacrifice?

NYC12345 · July 2015

@nicole.hopkins
My theory is as follows: suppose he takes a year off and earns a score high enough to get a $50k scholarship. He will be losing out if he's planning on doing Biglaw, since he can allocate more than $50k a year towards repayment with a Biglaw salary (depending on the city in which he is living, obviously).

nicole.hopkins · July 2015

@alexandergreene93 said:
He will be losing out if he's planning on doing Biglaw

I still don't see how he's losing out. What assumption underlies your reasoning?

NYC12345 · July 2015

Because he will graduate a year later with no gains.

NYC12345 · July 2015

The money he will receive in the form of a scholarship is less than the money he will receive working as a freshly-minted attorney.

mes08 · July 2015

Like everyone is saying, I'd recommend retaking.

On another note, how did you guys find out your LSAC GPA? Can anyone direct me to where/how I can find mine?

NYC12345 · July 2015

Type it into Google and several calculaters will come up.

NYC12345 · July 2015

You can also click "Law School Ranking" under tools on 7sage, and there should be an option at the top of the rankings.

nicole.hopkins · July 2015

@alexandergreene93 said:
Because he will graduate a year later with no gains.

How ... do you see a scholarship as not being a gain ... That's money you don't have to pay back ... Money in your pocket ... $50k is like more than half of a new Corvette! Vrroooooooom!

nicole.hopkins · July 2015

@mes08 said:
On another note, how did you guys find out your LSAC GPA? Can anyone direct me to where/how I can find mine?

The 7sage one is my favorite! http://7sage.com/gpa-calculator/

Pacifico · July 2015

He's just talking about the opportunity cost of sacrificing the year of making $160k in order to get a higher score and $150k in scholarship money. However, he doesn't need to take a year off to retake for a higher score, and the argument in his scenario also fails to factor in the money he could make in the year he waits to retake the LSAT. Say it's $50k then you're getting $200k in four years (spread more or less evenly) versus $160k in four years (on the back end only).

nicole.hopkins · July 2015

@Pacifico I get it—I just think the choice is so clear, as you've nicely laid out there.

seth.corley · July 2015

Thank you guys. First off, for helping me think through this. Secondly, for the entertainment. Like the Red Herring. Hahahaha.

blah170blah · July 2015

A 4.03 GPA plus a 170-173 LSAT makes you viable for Yale (have multiple friends who had a 4.0 GPA, 172 and got into Yale). I would HIGHLY recommend taking since you clearly have most of the chops to get a 170+ score.

Also, somebody mentioned Berkeley with a compelling personal statement. You are the perfect Berkeley candidate. Berkeley loves high GPA and doesn't emphasize the LSAT as much as other schools. Your LSAT is also within their range, albeit their lower range but still manageable.

TL;DR: retake and aim for the stars. work on your personal statement

Chipster Study · July 2015

Well, I am kinda new to this group but if I may add one thing about taking student loan debt. You pay back after taxes. So, $200K debt is really $400K gross salary. It is doable but take it from someone who has paid back that much previously on a student loan that is not dischargable for any reason including personal bankruptcy.... think very carefully before assuming.

nicole.hopkins · July 2015

@"Chipster Study" said:
So, $200K debt is really $400K gross salary.

Yeah and don't forget about all those fancy suits, car, furniture, apartment, and wining/dining that will prove tempting, if not seemingly necessary. Oh, and dry cleaning for the suits. And your housekeeper for the apartment you'll never be at to clean the furniture you never sit on. And vacations to escape all the madness.

Pacifico · July 2015

Pro tip: get your own perc and dry clean everything yourself... Sure you'll have to buy a new washer pretty frequently, but nothing says hipster lawyer like DIY dry cleaning...

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

Related Discussions

Want to know if NYU is realistic.

is "if and only if" equivalent to "if, but only if, "?trying to map "grace helps move the sofa if, but only if, heather helps move the recliner".... is this the same as "if and only if"?

if A --> B, then can I say if A is likely to happen, then B will likely to happen?For example, PT 43 S2 Q10 I am trying to examine the stimulus with only logic and try to make sense of AC A. Acceptance of criticism requ…

Should I apply to law school even if I know I want to defer because of TFAI was accepted into TFA last spring and I definitely plan on serving. TFA has certain schools that allow you to defer if you are accepted into TFA fo…

If I already have lawhub do I have to pay for it again if I want to use 7sage?It looks like a 7sage subscription automatically includes a $99 charge for Lawhub. If I already have Lawhub, is there a way to link the account so I…

Not sure if this is appropriate to ask... but if you don't mind :DFor JY and other who teach 7sage lsat prep: What did you guys score on the actual LSAT? What was your diagnostic score when you started?

Comments