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Everyone and their mother is telling me not to...

profile427profile427 Alum Member
in General 213 karma
...go to law school.

This includes alumni and current faculty in my region. They say that everything is way too saturated.

Besides the LSAT-takers and aspiring law school students, WHO these days is saying "go to law school?"
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  • 2RARE2CARE2RARE2CARE Member
    edited October 2015 248 karma
    Everything is saturated brah. The world always need more ELITE doctors, more ELITE financial analysts, more ELITE economists, more ELITE accountants, and even ELITE lawyers. What the world doesn't need is another average joe attorney who went to an average law school. If you think you're going to be an amazing, kickass attorney, then you can be very successful. Just don't try think you're tonna be successful practicing in the middle of the sticks in upstate, NY, if you know what I mean.
  • DA KhaliqDA Khaliq Member
    14 karma
    Hey @profile427 ,

    I got the same response you did and that is what most of the internet is filled with... Nay sayers. I've done my research, know the pros and cons and know that I do want to go to law school and that I will shoot for the stars.
  • PetrichorPetrichor Alum Member
    359 karma
    One of my professors and I talked a lot about law school and she is encouraging me to apply and said it was an awesome experience/investment for her. She got her JD/PhD from H (where I have 0% chance even with a 180) so that is something to consider..
  • beth.flandersbeth.flanders Alum Member
    212 karma
    I've heard the same about saturation. Here in RI, the phrase is a dime a dozen. I've also been told not to do it by current practicing lawyers. Personally, i think they are all cranky from working around the clock for so many years. Keep in mind that the work hours are horrendous but that's not so different from other exec type jobs. As a former business owner and exec of other companies, the work hours have always been 24/7, in my experience it's what is expected.

    I've also spoken with a few folks who went to law school, obtained their JD and decided not to sit for the bar exam. They have obtained other good paying, challenging careers. Each one of them indicated that their JD degree separated them from the rest. While the JD degree may be more costly than that of a Masters degree, if law school/lawyer is what you are passionate about and want to pursue, then do it! You have to do what is in the best interest of you and where you hope to be in the future.
  • jyang72jyang72 Alum Member
    844 karma
    Doing what you like to do, life is a party. If being a lawyer is your dream, then you should not let anyone ruin your determination. I know the market is pretty saturated now. But a good lawyer is always needed. My mom said the same thing to me last year, she said the law degree is too difficult to me. However, it is my dream to be a lawyer, so I should stick to my dream and fight hard for it. You can do it.
  • nicole.hopkinsnicole.hopkins Inactive Sage Inactive ⭐
    7965 karma
    @2RARE2CARE said:
    Just don't try think you're tonna be successful practicing in the middle of the sticks in upstate, NY, if you know what I mean.
    I'm not in favor of denigrating an entire class of legal professionals. This, too, is a fully legitimate career path and one that plenty of folks would find fulfilling.
  • nicole.hopkinsnicole.hopkins Inactive Sage Inactive ⭐
    7965 karma
    @profile427 said:
    WHO these days is saying "go to law school?"
    Folks who understand that there are many ways to do all sorts of great things in life. If you want to be an attorney, go to law school. Where you want to go should be informed by what you want to do with your degree. It's as simple (and wide open) as that.
  • PacificoPacifico Alum Inactive ⭐
    8021 karma
    I find that almost all the people that say that negative shit mostly regret the massive debt it took to get a JD, which is its own separate issue in my opinion. Perhaps in a perfect world there would be no need for lawyers at all, but the reality is that they are an absolutely vital part of our society no matter how much people want to talk shit about them (some lawyers themselves included). We need court clerks, corporate attorneys, IP attorneys, tax attorneys, public defenders, prosecutors, defense attorneys and all the other variations that can exist. It all boils down to whether that is for you or not. I definitely think it is smart to do your homework and understand the realities you will face after graduation, but even if the market weren't saturated, there would still be no guarantees. Having graduated with 90k in debt after undergrad, I'm very averse to student loan debt because it is the most obnoxious kind of debt in my opinion, but that is a whole separate conversation. If you are cool with the possibility of shouldering a debt load of 100-200k or more and no guarantee of loan forgiveness or big law to pay that off in less than 10 years, then by all means go for it. If you're debt averse, just forget the T14 and go somewhere that will give you a ton of money so you have more options. Regardless, if you're paying anything I think it's a good idea to want to practice law when you finish.

    I have friends that took out 200k in loans and they tell me not to go to law school, but I think that's more about their own regrets and suffering under the weight of that obligation. I have my GI Bill so I can go to law school for free, if not get paid to do so. Therefore, I have a freedom that most people don't, which is that I could never actually practice law (though I do want to), and I could just take a JD advantage job or go and do literally anything else and it wouldn't kill me or my family financially since I'll have good prospects for a variety of reasons in a variety of fields.

    Just stay true to yourself and do what you really want to do so long as you're willing to live with the consequences. When I was 18 I didn't understand what it really meant to take out 90k in loans because it sounded like monopoly money at the time. I'm finishing my M.S. this week and it is already bought and paid for in full with no loans because I used my tuition assistance and paid the difference up front and it feels awesome knowing I took away no debt from that. When people hate on your goals and your plans, it is often more a reflection of themselves and the regrets and forsaken goals that they once had. Do your thing and fuck the haters.
  • nicole.hopkinsnicole.hopkins Inactive Sage Inactive ⭐
    7965 karma
    @Pacifico said:
    When people hate on your goals and your plans, it is often more a reflection of themselves and the regrets and forsaken goals that they once had. Do your thing and fuck the haters.
    +100
  • ChrissyChrissy Free Trial Member
    47 karma
    I have been a paralegal for four years and most of the lawyers I have been around has told me the same: Do not go to law school. This was the worst mistake of my life. If I knew what I know now I would never have done it. (Note the lawyers I spoke to were practicing personal injury and family law) I work in family law now and I see the bad, the ugly, the frustrating, the ungrateful, and sometimes the good. But to be honest I love all of it. But family law in particular is an area of law that either you love or you don't.

    So long rant -- well long I'm sorry -- law is not for everyone that is true but there is so many of areas of law and so many different types of lawyers so odds are you will find an area that you like. And there is even more opportunities you have with a JD degree that does not have to necessarily have to deal with being a lawyer so law school in and of itself I don't believe will be a waste. Just do what makes you happy and at the end of the day I would rather me telling myself I wish I never went to law school than I wish that I had.
  • mpits001mpits001 Alum Member
    edited October 2015 938 karma
    To piggyback off of what others are saying, it also depends where you plan to work (region, state, city, etc.) It also depends what kind of law you want to practice. Do you want to become a professor or judge later on after practicing for awhile? Both are very respectable and usually pay decently. You can do so much with a law degree. Aside from doing well in law school it's also about networking. I know current 2Ls who worked for firms the summer after their 1L year and who are kept part-time during the semester. They may have already secured a job after graduating. Honestly, it's a huge misconception. You want to work for BIG law, or corporate, or clerk for a Supreme Court Justice? You need to be top of your class. Do you want to make a decent living and possibly earn more later on? Don't flunk and network while you're in law school.

    I love the law, everyday I just want to keep reading. I usually stop because I need to outline (which is essential). It's difficult, and that's a given. You are being taught to think differently, it's like an evolution. Screw the haters, law school is awesome (at least after the first month).
  • NYC12345NYC12345 Alum Inactive Sage
    1654 karma
    @mpits001 , which law school are you attending?
  • danielznelsondanielznelson Alum Inactive Sage Inactive ⭐
    4181 karma
    By "everything" they only mean certain sectors of law. Fields including lower-income families, families with special needs, et cetera, are relatively understaffed. There are alcoves hidden from big law, government jobs, et cetera. Besides, markets ebb and flow. That's a dramatic oversimplification, but long-term, I doubt there will be such a saturation.
  • mpits001mpits001 Alum Member
    938 karma
    @alexandergreene93 FIU Law
  • Nilesh SNilesh S Alum Inactive ⭐
    3438 karma
    If you want to go go... if not, don't... its really up to you sure people will say no.. some will say yes... but do what you think you'll love doing and you will be successful and happy. Love what you do and you won't work a day in your life... Build a better mousetrap, and the world will beat a path to your door.
  • lsatblitzlsatblitz Alum Member
    521 karma
    A friend of mine really wanted to be a lawyer, but ended up just getting her CPA. Now, she says she works twice as hard as the tax lawyers she works with, and gets paid about a third of the salary for it.

    Practicing law may be a miserable job for some people out there, but from what I've seen, a good amount of people are miserable in their work no matter what the profession is.
  • PacificoPacifico Alum Inactive ⭐
    8021 karma
    @lsatblitz said:
    a good amount of people are miserable in their work no matter what the profession is.
    This is what it's all about right here people.
  • nicole.hopkinsnicole.hopkins Inactive Sage Inactive ⭐
    7965 karma
    @lsatblitz said:
    a good amount of people are miserable in their work no matter what the profession is.
    Now this is CERTAINLY true!!
  • The 180 Bro_OVOThe 180 Bro_OVO Alum Inactive ⭐
    1392 karma
    @Pacifico said:
    When people hate on your goals and your plans, it is often more a reflection of themselves and the regrets and forsaken goals that they once had. Do your thing and fuck the haters.

    I legitimately might print this off and put it on my wall.
  • GordonBombayGordonBombay Alum Member
    edited October 2015 456 karma
    A lot of people in this thread are saying that practicing attorneys they know personally are telling them to "not go to law school", but in my experience I've heard the exact opposite. I work at a small "boutique" law firm that specializes in complex product liability/personal injury litigation and every single lawyer that works there (8 total) have encouraged my decision and told me that going to law school was probably the best decision they've ever made.

    The younger lawyers there (range from 1-5 years post graduation) all encourage me to be highly debt averse, for obvious reasons, when it comes to my decision on where to attend. However as I mentioned above they are all still really encouraging and seem to be very satisfied with their careers personally. A lot of them warn against being, and I quote, a "prestige whore" and putting way too much stock into the rankings of schools. Especially if you could care less about working corporate big law.

    At the end of the day if you are pursuing a law degree primarily as a way to "make 100k per year", or to feel "powerful/important", then you're probably going to be disappointed. However if you truly have an interest in the nature of the work itself, or you just want to provide an important service to your community, then I think you'll end up not regretting your decision to attend law school.

    Also a lot of the nay-sayers who claim that the market is way over saturated forget to acknowledge the large number of baby boomers who are still working in the legal market, which is a profession that you can really milk into old age if you have a strong professional track record. I can only speak on Texas because it's where I live and what I know but, according to the Texas state bar's 2014-2015 attorney statistical profile, the 2004 population of lawyers over 65 was 5,089, which is 8 percent of the 67,764 active in-state attorneys. In 2014, the over-65 lawyer population had increased to 12,621, which is 15 percent of the 86,494 active in-state attorneys.

    These baby boomers are going to retire eventually, and when you consider that law school applications in general are currently trending downward, it seems reasonable to assume that people who are saying the market is way too over saturated are thinking too short term and in general overreacting to a degree.

    Apologies. I didn't intend for this comment to turn into a full fledged rant, but oh well.

    Source://www.texaslawyer.com/id=1202725825570/The-Graying-Tsunami-As-Baby-Boom-Lawyers-Reach-65-More-Choose-to-Work-Into-the-Sunset#ixzz3o0UYvF4O
  • nicole.hopkinsnicole.hopkins Inactive Sage Inactive ⭐
    7965 karma
    @GordonBombay said:
    These baby boomers are going to retire eventually, and when you consider that law school applications in general are currently trending downward, it seems reasonable to assume that people who are saying the market is way too over saturated are thinking too short term and in general overacting to a degree.
    Analysis win.

    Oh, and ...

    image
  • profile427profile427 Alum Member
    213 karma
    Wowzers, I really struck gold with getting your attention, eh? ;)

    Besides any potential debt, where my concern lies is ending up in the same/similar situation that I'm already in. I paid(am paying) nearly $100k for my master's in allied health from NU, and one of the reasons why I went into my field is to make an impact in society/the lives of others in rough shape. Yes, I do that, but under the pressure that I treat humans like widgets and bill anywhere from 90-92% per minute worked (yes, minute, not hour). I don't want to be stuck making more widgets, but in a different way, as a lawyer.

    When people tell me to steer clear of law school, my brain goes to ^^^^^^^.
    @"DA Khaliq" said:
    I've done my research, know the pros and cons and know that I do want to go to law school and that I will shoot for the stars.
    I'd like to hear more about your analysis, if you so please.
    @beth.flanders said:
    They have obtained other good paying, challenging careers. Each one of them indicated that their JD degree separated them from the rest.
    Can you tell me more? What did they end up doing?
    @nicole.hopkins said:
    I'm not in favor of denigrating an entire class of legal professionals. This, too, is a fully legitimate career path and one that plenty of folks would find fulfilling.
    I have to agree with this, especially since I'm not a brah and don't necessarily feel that I have to be "elite" in the brah sense in order to find fulfillment in my career path.
    @nicole.hopkins said:
    Folks who understand that there are many ways to do all sorts of great things in life. If you want to be an attorney, go to law school.
    Where the problem lies is that the naysayers are saying that in order to do great things in life, a JD is unnecessary. This is also coming from JDs who have been in the field for a while.
    @Pacifico said:
    I definitely think it is smart to do your homework and understand the realities you will face after graduation, but even if the market weren't saturated, there would still be no guarantees.
    I think that this is also a trigger of one of my fears. A number of people in my current field feel as though what we learned in our grad program didn't really prepare us for the reality of what we would face later on in the healthcare system. It just "happened" to us, and we had to learn the really, really hard way. So, then I worry that the same thing will happen to me again in the legal system.
    @Chrissy said:
    Just do what makes you happy and at the end of the day I would rather me telling myself I wish I never went to law school than I wish that I had.
    I really REALLY appreciate you sharing your story! I take it that you must be working on the path to law school if you're over here on 7Sage?
    @GordonBombay said:
    I work at a small "boutique" law firm that specializes in complex product liability/personal injury litigation and every single lawyer that works there (8 total) have encouraged my decision and told me that going to law school was probably the best decision they've ever made.
    This is encouraging! :) Boutique all the way.
    @GordonBombay said:
    At the end of the day if you are pursuing a law degree primarily as a way to "make 100k per year", or to feel "powerful/important", then you're probably going to be disappointed. However if you truly have an interest in the nature of the work itself, or you just want to provide an important service to your community, then I think you'll end up not regretting your decision to attend law school.
    This definitely hits home. I already know what it feels like to make $100k, and although it's quite a privilege to hit that range, it can turn into a case of feeling like it's "never enough" when you have so much student debt. You hit the nail on the head in that my interest in the work is key here, but then I get tripped up in the idea that whenever you make a career change, you "should always be making a higher salary than your previous career."
    @GordonBombay said:
    Apologies. I didn't intend for this comment to turn into a full fledged rant, but oh well.

    Not a rant. Wealth of thought, thank you!
  • ChrissyChrissy Free Trial Member
    47 karma
    @profile427 yeah my goal is to be a lawyer in family law and to start my own firm. So I get a double the negativity regarding wanting to start a law firm out of law school. But this is the best move for me and my family. And I am excited for the challenges that are ahead of me.
  • nicole.hopkinsnicole.hopkins Inactive Sage Inactive ⭐
    7965 karma
    @profile427 said:
    I have to agree with this, especially since I'm not a brah and don't necessarily feel that I have to be "elite" in the brah sense in order to find fulfillment in my career path.
    +10 to this :)
  • profile427profile427 Alum Member
    213 karma
    @Chrissy said:
    yeah my goal is to be a lawyer in family law and to start my own firm. So I get a double the negativity regarding wanting to start a law firm out of law school.
    This sounds incredible! It also sounds similar to my "vision" in that I too want to have my own firm and/or be as independent as possible. I'm so over being part of the traditional workforce (lifestyle and structure works for many/most, but not so much for me).
  • beth.flandersbeth.flanders Alum Member
    212 karma
    @profile427 said:
    Can you tell me more? What did they end up doing?
    Senior Tax Manager, GE corporate; Director Paralegal Studies program at a local university, along with a couple others who became law professors and a Senior Systems Analyst. Each of these folks indicated they wanted more of scheduled work life versus the chaotic hours of working at a law firm.

    There is also another individual, who was my former professor, left corporate practice and teaching because after he volunteered to work on the newly elected Governor's transition team, he was asked to become the Deputy Chief of Staff. While he is licensed to practice law, i thought that I would add it as an example that you never know what opportunities may come knocking at your door even after or if you practice law.
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