Making A Murderer [Spoilers Everywhere]

Comments

• allison.gill.sanford Alum Inactive Sage

  January 2016 1128 karma

  I finished it a couple days ago. My gut is unsure on Avery, but that poor Dassey kid...
  My thoughts:
  - We did not get enough background on the EDTA test; obviously a positive finding would be conclusive, but is a negative finding conclusive?? Why was this admissible?
  - Someone has to explain why there was a hole in the top of the blood vile from the old evidence pack - I will never get over that until I hear a reasonable explanation
  - During his closing, the prosecutor says "reasonable doubt is for the innocent..." WTF?? IS HE ALLOWED TO SAY SOMETHING LIKE THAT???
  ...I guess I don't actually know what you are allowed to say in court yet, but this seemed like he was misleading the jury and telling them not to do their job
  - I do have to say, the defense's theory of the crime that some other party preyed on the police dept's tunnel vision to pin Avery seems pretty far fetched
  - How can a judge deny a mistrial to Dassey given how his first attorney and the attorney's "investigator" colluded to get another confession?
  - The burden on the state to prove guilt seems incredibly important; wish it actually worked that way
  
  Even if Avery is guilty, it's a f*cking travesty.
• Q.E.D Alum Member

  January 2016 556 karma

  I keep hearing about this documentary, gettin' curious. Must say nothing scares me more than a jury of my peers.
• Maritzaa Alum Member

  January 2016 368 karma

  Literally just finished the last episode.
  
  Wow. Just wow.
• kimberleybishop.ok Alum Member

  January 2016 3 karma

  There are so many unanswered questions and so many faults in both of the trials. It is also absolutely atrocious that Brendan Dassey wasn't allowed another trial. The evidence against his 1st attorney and the investigator were startling. Obviously they were not acting from a presumption of innocence based entirely on the character of his uncle (who I also believe to be innocent). There just was not, in my opinion, any true evidence that any crime was committed where the prosecutor claimed it was. There was no trace of Teresa anywhere in Avery's trailer.
  
  I would really love for the EDTA test to be explained, like the scientist did on the stand per the defense. Also, how in the world can anyone justify the hole in the top of the vial and the seemingly random bloodstains that were in her car?
  
  That whole show just drove me crazy and blew my mind all in one.
• 2RARE2CARE Member

  January 2016 248 karma

  I watched this with my father who was a DA and then criminal lawyer for 25 years and now a judge himself. Now it's just one opinion but he, personally, could not believe what the fuck happened. Lol
• Sheri123 Alum Member

  January 2016 1196 karma

  I found it very unsettling the way the investigators were leading Dassey's responses, and basically manipulating a confession out of him and then his own attorney sending in an investigator to get it in writing and even tell him what to write and draw. No parents or attorney present during questioning of a minor (not to mention the fact that he was intellectually challenged). How is that attorney not disbarred? I don't even know what to say about the apparent tampering with Avery's blood sample. I am further confused with why the intent seemed so set on focusing solely on Avery versus exploring other possibilities. One would think it would be more important for all concerned to convict the right person rather than focus on the easy target. How can they possibly not have concerns that there is still a potential murderer not still out there. Do you think Avery would still be trying to find evidence to support his innocence and he or his nephew would have missed an opportunity for a plea deals if they were not in fact innocent?
• nye8870 Alum ⭐

  January 2016 1749 karma

  I'm 3 episodes along now. This is beyond frustrating.
• Accounts Playable Live Sage ⭐

  January 2016 3107 karma

  @nye8870
  
  Same. I just finished the 3rd episode. Unfortunately, it's not that uncommon for bullshit like this to happen. When I audited prisons over a summer, I heard stories like this all the time from either the inmates themselves or from viewing their inmate files/records.
• twssmith Alum ⭐

  January 2016 edited January 2016 5120 karma

  Scrolled down to not see posts, half way thru!!
• Sheri123 Alum Member

  January 2016 1196 karma

  @Pacifico What are your thoughts on the show?
• 2RARE2CARE Member

  January 2016 edited January 2016 248 karma

  Im from NY and the typical joke among judges/DA's are that they are the shitty attorneys who went to mediocre schools, didn't succeed as a private attorney, and became DA'S who later ran for judge. Although it's a joke, it has some truth to it, running for judge/DA comes down to politics, a lot of them are unqualified. I mean Hilary Clinton was the worst Sec. of State and she got the job. You have to understand that, in the middle of nowhere, any shitty attorney can become a judge. You could of went to law school in Gautama Bay, worked for the DA making peanuts because you couldn't go corporate, and then became buddy buddy with everyone for 20 years and run for judge. There are many stupid judges and even more stupid DA's, you'd be surprised.. This is why things like this happen. But I would say this has to do with corruption more than anything
• Sheri123 Alum Member

  January 2016 1196 karma

  @2RARE2CARE very good point. Kind of makes me want to research which schools all those concerned attended to make sure I do not apply to them. Obviously not talking about those who tried to get the Dassey case retried bringing forth the evidence of the lack of integrity of the first attorney.
• 2 Likes

  Pacifico Alum Inactive ⭐

  January 2016 8021 karma

  While I can't say for sure whether Avery is actually innocent or not (I tend to think he is innocent as I agree with much of what Strang and Buting's investigator said about Avery not being intelligent enough to pull this off with so little evidence left behind), I will say that he definitely did not receive a fair trial and I am really surprised it didn't end with a hung jury after it started out with 7 for not guilty but then the bargaining started. The verdicts are completely contradictory in my opinion since it opens the door to say that someone else was responsible for what happened to the corpse. And the fact that two of the jurors were connected to the Manitowoc County Sheriff and Clerks offices is just insane and I can't believe they made it on to the jury. The rampant corruption and bizarre twists and turns was just unsettling, and the blood vial was especially crazy. It's unfortunate that the defense's hands were tied from the outset in regards to third party liability as they had four different potential suspects but could only pin it on Dassey and had no interest in doing so.
  
  The improper investigation that took place was disturbing, especially as Manitowoc personnel continued to be intimately involved when they were not supposed to be, and they "found" all the key pieces of evidence. And the call about the license plate definitely sounded like someone who was reading it from right in front of them. There's so much more I could write about this all day.
  
  All the Avery stuff aside, the really, truly mind-blowing thing is everything that happened surrounding the Dassey trial. I felt bewildered, just waiting for an adult to stand up and say "hey this is a mentally challenged kid who is highly suggestible and everything that is going on here is highly inappropriate". But then I remembered that we live in a country that executes mentally ill people so I guess in some ways it is just par for the course. His first lawyer was incredible. Just the embodiment of smugness with his weird little smile and bizarre comments to the press. I've definitely never seen a defendant get coerced by his own defense team, so that was pretty wild and my wife and I were sitting in shock as all of that played out. I can't believe that he didn't get a new trial after all that was said and done since so much damage had been done. Definitely a sad state of affairs and just goes to show that the problem is not that we have too many lawyers, it's that we have too many shitty ones.
  
  
• cjones76 Alum Member

  January 2016 318 karma

  I'm brining this thread back! I just finished watching the series.
  
  I really, really don't understand how Dessey was denied a mistrial. Particularly since Kachinsky, his first attorney, allowed him to be interrogated alone TWICE. The interrogation where he drew the pictures he was clearly against it and wanted to say that his story was lie. The video of him getting coerced into another confession is very sad. And the second Dassey gives a confession he calls Kachinsky to tell him that it went very well. Later, Dassey equated his answers to the interrogations to guessing on homework. Like @Pacifico said I just wish someone stood up and said he is mentally challenged and is very susestible to people's influence. Also, is there any solid evidence against him besides his conflicting statements?
  
  
  There is just so many inconsistencies in the cases.
• noobie1 Member

  January 2016 edited January 2016 266 karma

  I thought the case hinged on the EDTA results. The defense relied primarily on its police planting evidence theory to explain the physical evidence linking Steve Avery to Halbach. Since law enforcement officers are granted a strong presumption that they don't go around planting evidence, the defense needed to "prove" their theory. The fact that most if not all of the physical evidence was discovered by MCSD is consistent with that theory. But this consistency is largely circumstantial. That's why detecting EDTA on the RAV4 blood was so important as it would have conclusively proven the defense theory.
  
  I've looked at the FBI lab documents that describes the LC-MS experimental procedures and summarizes some of the EDTA results. Unfortunately, no actual data is attached. I am currently in the camp that the blood in the RAV4 did not contain EDTA (but I wouldn't bet anything on it). While I agreed with Arvizu (defense QC auditor) that the FBI did not conclusively measure a proper detection limit for the positive detection of EDTA, LC-MS is an extremely sensitive instrument. Interestingly, Arvizu pointed out that a 2 microliter sample of Steve Avery's blood from the purple capped vial came back negative for EDTA while a 1 microliter sample of the same blood came back positive. So at the very least, there is some doubt whether the FBI technique is robust for small sample volumes.
• mes08 Alum Member

  January 2016 578 karma

  @Pacifico said:
  While I can't say for sure whether Avery is actually innocent or not (I tend to think he is innocent as I agree with much of what Strang and Buting's investigator said about Avery not being intelligent enough to pull this off with so little evidence left behind), I will say that he definitely did not receive a fair trial and I am really surprised it didn't end with a hung jury after it started out with 7 for not guilty but then the bargaining started.
  

  Yes to all of this!
  
  - I definitely find it quite suspicious that Teresa's DNA couldn't be found anywhere in Steven's house or garage. In such a messy, cluttered place, I find it highly unlikely that even a mastermind killer could wipe all DNA evidence from the scene of the crime.
  - As everyone already pointed out, the hole in the blood vial is suspicious and the tape around the Styrofoam had been torn before Jerry Buting took a look at it. If there was a reasonable explanation for it, wouldn't someone (maybe someone from the investigation team) have come forward about it? I can't think of any legitimate reason why the blood vial would've been tampered with like that. Isn't there specific protocol for re-opening old evidence?
  
  Here's what I'm struggling with: Remember how Sgt. Colborn calls the police dispatcher and ask the dispatch to run a license plate number, and gets a hit for Teresa Halbach's car? And then Colborn confirms this by saying, "Ninety-nine Toyota?" This was before Halbach's car was found on Avery's property. When Sgt. Colborn was put on the witness stand, the defense lawyers claimed that the reason he was able to provide the model and the license plate was because he was standing in front of the car looking at it. However, Colborn denies this. For those of you who listened to Serial and remember how they used nearby cell phone towers to figure out the location of several cell phone calls, why didn't Steven's defense lawyers try and do the same for Colborn's phone call? If he didn't radio-in the car information to the dispatcher and called instead, doesn't this suggest that he wasn't in his police car or at his desk and was probably using a cell phone?
• mes08 Alum Member

  January 2016 edited January 2016 578 karma

  Unrelated to theories, but an interesting article nonetheless: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/12/opinion/making-a-murderer-is-about-justice-not-truth.html?_r=0
• 1 Like

  mpits001 Alum Member

  January 2016 938 karma

  I actually asked my Crim Law Professor about this documentary. She said she couldn't believe the way the prosecution handled the case, and she's an experienced prosecutor.
  
  I also spoke to some friends who are police officers in neighboring counties of Manitowoc. The sentiment against the Averys is real. They also believe it may have been one of Steven's brothers. His brothers, as I believe the documentary points out, have a history of sexual violence against women. Regardless, the Manitowoc police department handled this so poorly.
• tanes256 Alum Member

  January 2016 edited January 2016 2573 karma

  Great documentary. I went back and forth trying to determine if I believed Avery is innocent or not. I have to say I'm still not 100% sold that he's innocent but I'm d@mn near certain there is no way a body was butchered on that property and there's no blood. I also agree that Avery is not intelligent enough to pull this off and remove all trace evidence. The poke in the vile??? What in THE hell?! Ain't no way!! And the poor nephew, smh! He's obviously mentally challenged and they can play cutesy with the media all they want but everybody know people are coerced into confessions everyday. That child said he thought he was going back to school for a test. And what's up with the cousin that got on the stand and admitted she lied about Dassey's whereabouts? Why lie to begin with? Did they get to her like Brendan to fabricate a story? She was a minor. Was there adult supervision when she was writing her statement? The victim's car being located less than an hour in what seems to be mazes and rolls after rolls of junk. So these two chicks just happened to find it on the outskirts of the property??? Yeah, ok. And idk how close the property is to other non Avery properties but nobody heard screams or smelled flesh burning? I was staring at the screen in awe just like everybody else. So what's season two gonna be about? They've exhausted all appeals, right? Or a new person/story? Sadly in sure they're plenty out there. As much as I want to run from criminal law crap like this just boils my blood! The fact that it's so common. And I also hate how the juries always seem to be punked into unanimous votes. But I guess that goes back to voir dire and all that good stuff. It's part of the strategy to find someone that may flip just because they're easily influenced or they just want to go home. Where is the go fund me account for these two?? Lol
• cjones76 Alum Member

  February 2016 318 karma

  I read this article about an unrelated case of a man who was on death row for murder he claimed he did not commit. I thought it was an interesting short read.
  
  https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/inspired-life/wp/2016/01/21/making-friends-with-a-murderer-and-proving-hes-innocent/