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Related Discussions
Thoughts on ED full tuition programs?
badgalriri
Alum Member
Like everyone else here I'm worried about the loans, and I was looking into the early decision full tuition programs, like the one at Northwestern University. Ideally, I wanted to attend school in NYC or Philly, but the chances of getting a really good scholarship are looking slimmer by the minute.
I actually don't know much about Northwestern (other than it's a great school and it's brutally cold in the winter), so I'd obviously look into it a lot more and try to visit the campus before making such an important decision. On the surface though, I was wondering if anyone had any insight on whether or not it's worth it, or whether it's better to see what kind of financial aid/scholarships I could receive.
Thanks!
I actually don't know much about Northwestern (other than it's a great school and it's brutally cold in the winter), so I'd obviously look into it a lot more and try to visit the campus before making such an important decision. On the surface though, I was wondering if anyone had any insight on whether or not it's worth it, or whether it's better to see what kind of financial aid/scholarships I could receive.
Thanks!
Comments
I don't mean that disrespectfully, it's an extremely competitive scholarship at an elite law school. Alternatively, BU has the same type of ED full ride as Northwestern. And while BU is still an excellent law school, you don't need as high of scores/gpa. Keep in mind though applications for these programs usually have to be submitted by mid November.
My point in all of this is don't give up on getting a good scholarship by applying regular and keeping your options open. Is there a particular reason why you think your scholarship chances are low?
I'm slightly above NU's 75th percentile LSAT and a little less than its 75th percentile GPA - so I'm not a candidate they'd necessarily be fighting to win. That's why I'm not confident I'd even get inED - just contemplating it.
For NYU in particular, I have an okay shot at getting in but I definitely do not think my numbers are high enough for a full tuition scholarship (I was looking into AnBryce but it's really competitive).
I guess my assumption is I'd have to be over the 75th percentile GPA & LSAT to score a scholarship as good as $150k, which is why I'm starting to lean towards these ED programs now. I'm not an URM since I'm Asian, and my financial situations are difficult - but a lot of people's are, so I can't rely on aid grants.
Like @"Ron Swanson" said, why do you think you'll get NU if your prospects are weak at other places, though? Just wondering if maybe there is some reason you didn't mention. NU is a T14 and thus very competitive. I think sometimes its competitiveness tends to be overlooked on forums like TLS and Reddit.
If you meant it is harder to get a full-scholarships to NYU or Penn Law than I would guess you are correct. But I still think your LSAT/GPA would have to be very high in both circumstances. Somewhere in the ballpark of ~ 3.7+ / 170 +
But those are just estimates based on MyLSN...
I guess it will come down to a few things:
First, your numbers.
Second, what schools you truly want
Third, how much you value a particular school vs. how debt adverse you are.
A personal example is that I have become extremely debt adverse since beginning college and seeing loans and debt first hand. Before college, in high school, I was set on attending a top school and price didn't matter to me; loans would cover it and that would be that. I was also pretty dead set on "Big Law" Now with my goals more or less figured out, I am HYS or bust. The reason is I am interested in academia and know that these are more or less the places where I will have the best shot at those unicorn jobs. Also, they will give me a good chance at big law which is a more realistic outcome. They also give need-based aid as opposed to merit, so I will be able to have good repayment programs with lower interested as opposed to private lenders I may have had to deal with.
So I am willing to take on some extra debt now in order to have a better shot at the jobs I'd want (Academia/BL) So I personally wouldn't ED to NU because while I might have a decent shot at a BL job, I don't think I would have as good a shot at academia as I would from HYS.
So you kind of have to consider debt, goals, and where you stand with your numbers.
Overall though, NU with a full scholarship is an amazing deal!
Have you done any research on Law School Transparency or Above the Law? Both sites have tons of information on costs and employment outcomes. ATL's law school rankings are almost totally outcome based: debt, employment outcomes, etc. It sounds like you would be willing to follow the money in order to balance a degree and debt. If you think you need to look beyond NYC/Philly they are great places to start.
You could employ a leveraging strategy by pitting acceptances at several schools against each other to get the best deal possible. You wouldn't be able to do that the same year you were accepted into a program via ED.
Not that I think EDing to NU is a bad idea (I wish my GPA was higher or I would go after it), but you have to realize there will still be debt associated with it.
Alternatively, if you think you are in contention for the ED program, you can play it out and see what kind of $$$ you are offered from other schoolsuse competing offers as leverage to get more than the 150k from NU.
On the basis of how you described your numbers you don't seem like someone who would be in a bad position for scholarships tbh. Yeah maybe not a full ride, but I think it's kind of dangerous to have a "full ride or bust" mentality if your goal is to go T14. However with your numbers you can definitely aim for/even expect full rides outside the T14..and this adds further to not going ED so you have that negotiating power.
Regardless @"Alex Divine" nailed it in saying that your goals are what really matter here. If you want big law, T14 will give you the best shot, and by keeping your loans to a minimum you'll presumably be in very good financial shape when you graduate. Lawyers working big law are compensated very well, so don't think you'll be crippled in debt if you settle for less than a full ride. Granted, everyone's financial situation/outlook on personal debt varies. Meanwhile, you can also go big law from a non T14 school..its just tougher to get your foot in the door. So if that's your goal, you may be better off taking the full ride non T14 then trying to crush it in terms of class rank (easier said than done), you just need to do some research on nonT14s and their ability to place you in big law.
On the flip side, if big law isn't really for you or you want to start your own business/small firm, focus on keeping that debt down and getting a full ride somewhere with a good reputation in a city that you see yourself in. Personally for me, my goal is to start my own business..and since I don't see myself in big law it's important to keep debt down to I can be secure without big law salary. For me/other non big law people, it makes more sense to take the full ride somewhere ranked lower. A prospective client generally won't care if you went to the #8 ranked school vs.#35th ranked provided they have a good impression of you, your firm's work, or whatever school you in fact attended.
So to bring things home, your personal goals really matter most when it comes down to how to go about this strategically. You're in a great spot! Should be an exciting admissions process
Yeah I'm definitely not doing academia so I'm not even considering HYS because of the loans, but good luck to you!!! It definitely makes a lot of sense for you though.
Would you say I'd have to be significantly above the 75th percentile LSAT/GPA to get good scholarships? Also I was looking into the grants for different schools and it seems that not many offer more than 10-20k per year, which is why I was concerned about other schools.
@Mellow_Z Yeah, I was calculating it and it'd actually still be around $100,000 in total that I'd have to take loans, which is still way better than $200-255k. On other forums, I read that once your in with ED, no school will really offer you much more money because they've already got you. You should definitely give it a shot even if your GPA is low - I'm pretty sure NU seems to weigh LSAT more?
It looks like right at about 173+ and 3.8X is where the big, big money started kicking in 160K+ But it also looks like applicants with 3.6 and 170+ got like half tuition. If you are above both 75%-tiles you will absolutely have a great chance at scholarships from NU. Their c/o 2016 75th-%tiles are 3.85 and 169. I'm not sure how significantly above it you would have to be, but according to MLN.info http://mylsn.info/rw875d/ those with 3.8s and 170+ are certainly getting nice scholarships. (100K +)
There wasn't a big sample of those that ED'd but the one person that did and reported it got 150K and had a 3.85/173.
Don't put too much stock into these numbers, because the sample size isn't that great. But it gives you a good idea.
Thank you for the info! That website is really helpful (and also slightly depressing)
Difficult decisions!!!! I think I won't ED NU but will instead try to get in first and then worry about $$. Thanks everyone!!!
Yeah I've found that the attitude on TLS tends to lean negative, with most posters being committed to the T14 or bust outlook.
There are plenty of successful, wealthy lawyers that did not go T14 and do not work at corporate law firms. T14 is neither a sufficient or necessary condition for working at big law, making money in this profession, or being happy; it just makes you more likely to achieve certain goals assuming that's what you're after. (granted, many nonT14 schools will offer you no shot at big law)
Some people may call my post naive, but I think that putting in the effort up front on the LSAT/debt adverse law school decisions puts one in a position to be successful, happy, and financially secure during their career as a lawyer.
I also have the misfortune of carrying quite a lot of undergraduate loans with me so taking another 200k of debt from a full sticker price school would be a no-no, even with with big law as my main career goal afterwards. If you have any advice or if you've researched the two more than me, I would love to hear what you have to say.
The nature of your work is definitely firm dependent but EE is massively hiring because there is much more work than people to file and write applications. Thus, any IP related work at this stage in your career will heavily focus on Patent Prosecution. While some firms may let you assist in litigation or other legal matters, I wouldn't expect this to be the norm in EE.
My opinion is that you should work to get into a firm that has tuition assistance and then decide from there how you'd like to proceed. If you'd like to continue working for the firm and prosecuting inventions while having them pay for school, then great. If you think you'd be hard pressed for time and would like to focus solely on your studies, then quit your firm job and enjoy your time in law school. You may find out you actually hate IP and, as a result are more receptive to other subjects in law school, say tax, corporate, or whatever.
Good luck!
Hey! Reviving this because it seems to be a relevant place to ask the question.
Is there some taboo or even a strict policy against applying ED to one school, being rejected, and then applying ED to another school? My thought process is that while there would be multiple ED applications, there would not be multiple EDs at the same time.
I believe ED contracts forbid you for applying ED at other schools.