Thoughts on ED full tuition programs?

badgalriri

Like everyone else here I'm worried about the loans, and I was looking into the early decision full tuition programs, like the one at Northwestern University. Ideally, I wanted to attend school in NYC or Philly, but the chances of getting a really good scholarship are looking slimmer by the minute.

I actually don't know much about Northwestern (other than it's a great school and it's brutally cold in the winter), so I'd obviously look into it a lot more and try to visit the campus before making such an important decision. On the surface though, I was wondering if anyone had any insight on whether or not it's worth it, or whether it's better to see what kind of financial aid/scholarships I could receive.

Thanks!

Ron Swanson

My question back to you is if your chances of getting a good scholarship are looking bleak, what makes you think you'd have a good shot at the Northwestern ED?

I don't mean that disrespectfully, it's an extremely competitive scholarship at an elite law school. Alternatively, BU has the same type of ED full ride as Northwestern. And while BU is still an excellent law school, you don't need as high of scores/gpa. Keep in mind though applications for these programs usually have to be submitted by mid November.

My point in all of this is don't give up on getting a good scholarship by applying regular and keeping your options open. Is there a particular reason why you think your scholarship chances are low?

badgalriri

@"Ron Swanson" thanks for your feedback!

I'm slightly above NU's 75th percentile LSAT and a little less than its 75th percentile GPA - so I'm not a candidate they'd necessarily be fighting to win. That's why I'm not confident I'd even get inED - just contemplating it.

For NYU in particular, I have an okay shot at getting in but I definitely do not think my numbers are high enough for a full tuition scholarship (I was looking into AnBryce but it's really competitive).

I guess my assumption is I'd have to be over the 75th percentile GPA & LSAT to score a scholarship as good as $150k, which is why I'm starting to lean towards these ED programs now. I'm not an URM since I'm Asian, and my financial situations are difficult - but a lot of people's are, so I can't rely on aid grants.

Alex

I think ED'ing NU is a great plan if you have a competitive GPA/LSAT. They tend to be more lenient on GPA, but require higher LSATs. And if you want to ED I would make sure to have at least above median for both GPA/LSAT.

Like @"Ron Swanson" said, why do you think you'll get NU if your prospects are weak at other places, though? Just wondering if maybe there is some reason you didn't mention. NU is a T14 and thus very competitive. I think sometimes its competitiveness tends to be overlooked on forums like TLS and Reddit.

If you meant it is harder to get a full-scholarships to NYU or Penn Law than I would guess you are correct. But I still think your LSAT/GPA would have to be very high in both circumstances. Somewhere in the ballpark of ~ 3.7+ / 170 +

But those are just estimates based on MyLSN...

I guess it will come down to a few things:

First, your numbers.
Second, what schools you truly want
Third, how much you value a particular school vs. how debt adverse you are.

A personal example is that I have become extremely debt adverse since beginning college and seeing loans and debt first hand. Before college, in high school, I was set on attending a top school and price didn't matter to me; loans would cover it and that would be that. I was also pretty dead set on "Big Law" Now with my goals more or less figured out, I am HYS or bust. The reason is I am interested in academia and know that these are more or less the places where I will have the best shot at those unicorn jobs. Also, they will give me a good chance at big law which is a more realistic outcome. They also give need-based aid as opposed to merit, so I will be able to have good repayment programs with lower interested as opposed to private lenders I may have had to deal with.

So I am willing to take on some extra debt now in order to have a better shot at the jobs I'd want (Academia/BL) So I personally wouldn't ED to NU because while I might have a decent shot at a BL job, I don't think I would have as good a shot at academia as I would from HYS.

So you kind of have to consider debt, goals, and where you stand with your numbers.

Overall though, NU with a full scholarship is an amazing deal!

Matt Dare

Hiya. I came to this realization researching the ED at Emory, in Georgia, and I bet I'm not telling you something you don't already know. An ED program takes away all or most of your leverage to negotiate financial aid so if you've got a great application and think you could do better than what they offer through the ED then you should apply in the general application window. I'm pretty sure Northwestern is a full scholarship so that's a slightly different situation than Emory. It also means it's going to be relatively more competitive than ED programs with partials.

Have you done any research on Law School Transparency or Above the Law? Both sites have tons of information on costs and employment outcomes. ATL's law school rankings are almost totally outcome based: debt, employment outcomes, etc. It sounds like you would be willing to follow the money in order to balance a degree and debt. If you think you need to look beyond NYC/Philly they are great places to start.

You could employ a leveraging strategy by pitting acceptances at several schools against each other to get the best deal possible. You wouldn't be able to do that the same year you were accepted into a program via ED.

Mellow_Z

@"Matt Dare" said:
I'm pretty sure Northwestern is a full scholarship so that's a slightly different situation than Emory

NU's ED scholarship is only 150k (lol only), but their tuition I believe is closer to 60k/year, so it's not quite a FULL scholarship, but it's pretty close. Tack on 2k/month of living expenses and you have another 72k to finance.

Not that I think EDing to NU is a bad idea (I wish my GPA was higher or I would go after it), but you have to realize there will still be debt associated with it.

Alternatively, if you think you are in contention for the ED program, you can play it out and see what kind of $$$ you are offered from other schoolsuse competing offers as leverage to get more than the 150k from NU.

Ron Swanson

@badgalriri

On the basis of how you described your numbers you don't seem like someone who would be in a bad position for scholarships tbh. Yeah maybe not a full ride, but I think it's kind of dangerous to have a "full ride or bust" mentality if your goal is to go T14. However with your numbers you can definitely aim for/even expect full rides outside the T14..and this adds further to not going ED so you have that negotiating power.

Regardless @"Alex Divine" nailed it in saying that your goals are what really matter here. If you want big law, T14 will give you the best shot, and by keeping your loans to a minimum you'll presumably be in very good financial shape when you graduate. Lawyers working big law are compensated very well, so don't think you'll be crippled in debt if you settle for less than a full ride. Granted, everyone's financial situation/outlook on personal debt varies. Meanwhile, you can also go big law from a non T14 school..its just tougher to get your foot in the door. So if that's your goal, you may be better off taking the full ride non T14 then trying to crush it in terms of class rank (easier said than done), you just need to do some research on nonT14s and their ability to place you in big law.

On the flip side, if big law isn't really for you or you want to start your own business/small firm, focus on keeping that debt down and getting a full ride somewhere with a good reputation in a city that you see yourself in. Personally for me, my goal is to start my own business..and since I don't see myself in big law it's important to keep debt down to I can be secure without big law salary. For me/other non big law people, it makes more sense to take the full ride somewhere ranked lower. A prospective client generally won't care if you went to the #8 ranked school vs.#35th ranked provided they have a good impression of you, your firm's work, or whatever school you in fact attended.

So to bring things home, your personal goals really matter most when it comes down to how to go about this strategically. You're in a great spot! Should be an exciting admissions process

badgalriri

@Alex Divine
Yeah I'm definitely not doing academia so I'm not even considering HYS because of the loans, but good luck to you!!! It definitely makes a lot of sense for you though.

Would you say I'd have to be significantly above the 75th percentile LSAT/GPA to get good scholarships? Also I was looking into the grants for different schools and it seems that not many offer more than 10-20k per year, which is why I was concerned about other schools.

@Mellow_Z Yeah, I was calculating it and it'd actually still be around $100,000 in total that I'd have to take loans, which is still way better than $200-255k. On other forums, I read that once your in with ED, no school will really offer you much more money because they've already got you. You should definitely give it a shot even if your GPA is low - I'm pretty sure NU seems to weigh LSAT more?

Cant Get Right

Uh, where's @"Nicole Hopkins" at?

Alex

@badgalriri


It looks like right at about 173+ and 3.8X is where the big, big money started kicking in 160K+ But it also looks like applicants with 3.6 and 170+ got like half tuition. If you are above both 75%-tiles you will absolutely have a great chance at scholarships from NU. Their c/o 2016 75th-%tiles are 3.85 and 169. I'm not sure how significantly above it you would have to be, but according to MLN.info http://mylsn.info/rw875d/ those with 3.8s and 170+ are certainly getting nice scholarships. (100K +)

There wasn't a big sample of those that ED'd but the one person that did and reported it got 150K and had a 3.85/173.


Don't put too much stock into these numbers, because the sample size isn't that great. But it gives you a good idea.

stepharizona

@"Cant Get Right" said:
Uh, where's @"Nicole Hopkins" at?

Kicking tail at NU

Mellow_Z

@badgalriri said:
@Mellow_Z Yeah, I was calculating it and it'd actually still be around $100,000 in total that I'd have to take loans, which is still way better than $200-255k. On other forums, I read that once your in with ED, no school will really offer you much more money because they've already got you. You should definitely give it a shot even if your GPA is low - I'm pretty sure NU seems to weigh LSAT more?

Yeah I come from Electrical Engineering so my pipedream is to land at NU and do IP Law and stay big in Chicago for a few years after graduation. I haven't written off a chance at getting in.. I know there are definitely super splitters with GPA's around mine that get accepted but to be competitive for ED I'm surely out of the running which is okay. I will apply to WUSTL because they seem to throw full rides out like candy and hopefully use that as a bargaining chip to get SOME money (nything is better than full sticker)... assuming all goes as planned and I can pull a 98 percentile when test day actually rolls around. Easier said than done obviously but I need to hold myself accountable to my online internet homies haha

awyeah26

@Mellow_Z I was wondering if you had considered trying to work at a firm to become a patent agent. Electrical engineers are in high demand and you might be able to land a gig doing some patent work in the near future - with the possibility of your firm paying tuition for you to attend law school. Just some food for thought.

badgalriri

@alex divine
Thank you for the info! That website is really helpful (and also slightly depressing)

badgalriri

@"Ron Swanson" Thanks for the advice - just saw your post!!! Yeah I think I've been reading too many TLS posts where they break down the years it takes to pay off the loans and the bleak future of all your paychecks going over to mortgage/loans. I'm also working at a big law firm right now and personally would only be content working those long hours if my bank was loaded, not if it was all going to loans.

Difficult decisions!!!! I think I won't ED NU but will instead try to get in first and then worry about $$. Thanks everyone!!!

Alex

@badgalriri said:
Thank you for the info! That website is really helpful (and also slightly depressing)

Don't worry too much if you see things that are depressing. I know for a fact that many of the schools on there are skewed as people with higher results are more likely to report them. It is also a very small sample of the entire group of applicants.

If your GPA/LSAT are anywhere near the 75%-tiles, you will have amazing cycle.

Ron Swanson

@badgalriri

Yeah I've found that the attitude on TLS tends to lean negative, with most posters being committed to the T14 or bust outlook.

There are plenty of successful, wealthy lawyers that did not go T14 and do not work at corporate law firms. T14 is neither a sufficient or necessary condition for working at big law, making money in this profession, or being happy; it just makes you more likely to achieve certain goals assuming that's what you're after. (granted, many nonT14 schools will offer you no shot at big law)

Some people may call my post naive, but I think that putting in the effort up front on the LSAT/debt adverse law school decisions puts one in a position to be successful, happy, and financially secure during their career as a lawyer.

Mellow_Z

@TheWord26 said:
I was wondering if you had considered trying to work at a firm to become a patent agent. Electrical engineers are in high demand and you might be able to land a gig doing some patent work in the near future - with the possibility of your firm paying tuition for you to attend law school. Just some food for thought.

I've definitely given it some thought. I'm not sure how to make the decision to do one or the other but I figure I'll keep dedicating my near future to the LSAT. Once I get a score I like I will move straight onto studying for the Patent Bar. It would definitely open up some doors for me, but I have no idea how to choose which path is better. It's been an internal debate in my head for the last few months and I'm favoring neither side unfortunately.

I also have the misfortune of carrying quite a lot of undergraduate loans with me so taking another 200k of debt from a full sticker price school would be a no-no, even with with big law as my main career goal afterwards. If you have any advice or if you've researched the two more than me, I would love to hear what you have to say.

Alejandro

what about applying to Chicago ED when one can expect to get accepted with a modest scholly offer at Georgetown and Cornell?

awyeah26

@Mellow_Z Given your undergraduate loans, it might be a good idea to work (maybe at an IP firm?) before you head to law school. My thinking is this, you want to go to the best possible law school you can if your goal is big law, and you may want to figure out you actually enjoy patent work before taking on more debt only to find out you hate the work. Patent prosecution can be brutal and is much akin to factory work. You put the pieces of the application together, send it off, and defend your product (which may or may not be novel).

The nature of your work is definitely firm dependent but EE is massively hiring because there is much more work than people to file and write applications. Thus, any IP related work at this stage in your career will heavily focus on Patent Prosecution. While some firms may let you assist in litigation or other legal matters, I wouldn't expect this to be the norm in EE.

My opinion is that you should work to get into a firm that has tuition assistance and then decide from there how you'd like to proceed. If you'd like to continue working for the firm and prosecuting inventions while having them pay for school, then great. If you think you'd be hard pressed for time and would like to focus solely on your studies, then quit your firm job and enjoy your time in law school. You may find out you actually hate IP and, as a result are more receptive to other subjects in law school, say tax, corporate, or whatever.

Good luck!

seth.reid

Hey! Reviving this because it seems to be a relevant place to ask the question.
Is there some taboo or even a strict policy against applying ED to one school, being rejected, and then applying ED to another school? My thought process is that while there would be multiple ED applications, there would not be multiple EDs at the same time.

stepharizona

I believe ED contracts forbid you for applying ED at other schools.