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BRB just rethinking my entire life plan
So, I was looking for advice in the TLS forums, and pretty much everyone told me to rethink my entire life plan. The plan is (or was?) to take part in OU's early entry program, which allows me to start 1L a year early. The catch is, I don't technically have my BA until after 1L. The plan all along is that my husband and I would stay in Oklahoma, but recently we've been wondering if we would really be happy here forever. So, I was planning on doing well enough (top 5%) and applying to transfer to a T14 school. If I got in, we would move. If not, we'd stay.
Everyone in the TLS forums (all current or former law students) told me that I should reconsider this path and that I cannot bank on being in the top 5% of my class. The more I thought about it, the more it seemed like a risky plan. If I'm not able to be in the top 5% of my class, then I would be stuck in Oklahoma...forever.
Anyway, now I'm rethinking my entire life plan. Since we're not sure we would be happy living here forever, I'm leaning toward finishing my BA (graduate a year from now) and retaking the LSAT in June (unless I somehow miraculously scored over a 170 in Dec) and applying to T14 schools next cycle.
Thoughts? Good plan? Or should I stick with my previous plan? I should also mention that I am a little older than your average 1L...29. (sorry I am so needy for advice on here...)
Everyone in the TLS forums (all current or former law students) told me that I should reconsider this path and that I cannot bank on being in the top 5% of my class. The more I thought about it, the more it seemed like a risky plan. If I'm not able to be in the top 5% of my class, then I would be stuck in Oklahoma...forever.
Anyway, now I'm rethinking my entire life plan. Since we're not sure we would be happy living here forever, I'm leaning toward finishing my BA (graduate a year from now) and retaking the LSAT in June (unless I somehow miraculously scored over a 170 in Dec) and applying to T14 schools next cycle.
Thoughts? Good plan? Or should I stick with my previous plan? I should also mention that I am a little older than your average 1L...29. (sorry I am so needy for advice on here...)
Comments
So yea, we're thinking we would be happier somewhere coastal or possible Chicago. We like all that big cities have to offer and want to be somewhere more liberal where the economy is more diverse. But no, not set in stone by any means.
Politics aside, and joking aside since you guys have more on your plate than just politics, I definitely see the conundrum. The reality is that finishing top 5% is extremely difficult. I have a similar situation in the sense that I am deciding between a tier 4 law school and holding off to get into UT Austin (best school in Texas). If I got tier 4, I MUST graduate in the top 5% for big law or top 25% to at least get a satisfactory position going out of law school.
It seems simple, and I am sure you are brilliant, but most people in law school will be competing with you for the exact same goals.
It's basically up to the faith you have in yourself. Are you normally a top of the class student? Great work ethic? Etc. If your norms are excellence, then maybe a risk in Oklahoma is worth taking. If you have been an above average performer but not top of the line, then maybe it is being slightly ambitious to expect you will pull it off (I fall into this category by the way).
What seems to be the consensus is to study as long as necessary to get that 170+ so you could hit that t14 and never even worry about performance in class. I think, if you have the patience, resources, and time to do this, you should go for it.
That way, at least, you and yours could move around freely without any issue.
I don't think you should focus too much on the fact that you're 29 -- a lot of people are "older" in law school and I don't think age has adversely affected any of them. In most instances, being older also means being more experienced. This experience helps a lot during your academics in law school.
I should also add something about transferring that isn't too widely known: after your 1L your grades are sent to the career center, who then lines you up for jobs you are able to apply to. You go through this process called "EIW" or "OCI" ('early interview week' and 'on campus interviews', respectively). These interviews are for associate jobs for the summer between 2L and 3L. If you transfer, your school will not register you for OCI because you are no longer their student, and if you're transferring, often times your grades are not in on time for you to interview at the new school you're now at. You miss this summer which places you into rising 2L summer associate positions, which are typically the firms at which you are hired for post-graduation associateships.
Other factors to consider: law firms that partake in this process typically look at the school first, then filter applicants by grades (or class rank). A firm will typically go to a law school and say they want the top 10% of students to apply, go through interviews, and then start the associateship. But when they go to a lower ranking school, the percentage (if they interview applicants from that school at all) could drop as low as the 'top 3% of applicants'.
Let's say you got into Northwestern after OU and beat the odds and managed to score an interview: when law firms are looking at your 1L transcript grades (which they see before even touching your resume or cover letter), its showing them how you did at OU, not at NU, which wouldn't give them much information to go off of, even if you had a glittering 4.0, because they're looking to hire top NU grads.
Sometimes, you also get shafted for law review because it's decided by the end of 1L too. This is not the case for all schools, but for a good amount of schools it is. If you plan on being the top 5% of your class then you should probably have law review on your mind, since typically only the top 10% of the class is invited to (to show you how few people there are in the top 10%). And it's something that stands out considerably to employers in the legal field.
You could transfer: you really could do it. Save yourself a year, and then somehow make the top 5% of the class. But you would be sacrificing a lot more than you otherwise would be to just postpone your LSAT and apply to different schools directly.
Don't let age (or other anxieties) make you nervous enough to sacrifice a lot of opportunities that you could otherwise have. You could be the best lawyer but if you didn't graduate from a top school, you're going to have a very difficult time getting a job, and you're going to have a hard time competing against a market that just doesn't want to even interview you.
@lawschoolstuff16 Thank you! I was not aware of much of that info and it really is a game changer. I also appreciate you making me feel better about my age. I guess I'm overanalyzing it because I'm around undergrads all the time and they make me feel so old. Fortunately, I don't look any older than them so no one seems to notice
I don't know what your GPA is. I assume it's below 3.5 If it's not below 3.5 you just need to study for the LSAT until you get a 168. It's really that simple. If you're below 3.5, like a previous poster said, you need a score good enough to get you into a T14 or a top regional law school from a place where you want to settle. Ties in that area are a serious bonus. Do not count on transferring. Plan it from the end. Pick the place you want to live. Research the market for that place and find which schools they OCI. Then get the scores to go to those schools.
I also don't think your age will matter much, so don't worry about that.
Have you considered sitting the cycle out and just working hard the mastering the LSAT. I can all but guarantee that it is easier to do well on the LSAT than to be at the top of your class and transfer into the T14. Also, transfers are usually forced to pay sticker, whereas with a good LSAT you can get into a T14 with $. Or a good regional.
What are you ultimate career goals?
@"Alex Divine" that's what I'm considering now. I don't have great softs considering I returned to school after dropping out during the recession and haven't been involved in a lot as an older student. But, I'm pretty damn confident if I study until June I can at least get a 170. And as I said above my GPA should be over a 3.6 after a couple more semmesters. So, I guess I'm in a good spot to apply to a T14? I would be happy graduating from OU, it's a good local school.., I'm just not so sure I will be happy living in Oklahoma for the rest of my life. I might be! But I'm iffy about it.
Here is something I remind myself of every September and January, it makes me giggle, then I forget how old I am.
True story of me in my World Civ class 3 years ago as a freshman:
https://goo.gl/images/mhdZm4
I'm not her, but I hear ya when you say you feel like the oldest student in the classes. Acting my age is a weird concept to me---I've never been this age before, how am I supposed to act?
From what @lawschoolstuff16 said, which I had heard some of, I would be inclined to give more weight to lost opportunities. I am of the opinion that transferring is possible, but may not be the best idea in such a competitive school/job market. Why put that kind of extra stress on yourself?
As mentioned by another, where you want to live/practice should be where you want to go to law school. Connections in school will be heavy, and useful. I would also give that matter much weight in my decision to move or stay.
Only you can make this decision: an important and long-term-affecting one at that. I know you're not taking it lightly, but arm yourself with as much info as possible (and as much conflicting info as possible), then you can make a well-armed decision based on what works for you and your circumstances.
You can only do your best. And you seem pretty good at doing exactly that.
I'll be attending law school in the Midwest and I'm excited to move because my blue vote will really make a difference (I currently live in Seattle).
YES! Hopefully Ohio. Well, after our poor showing, anywhere will do.
Also we have terrible food here. Horrible grocery stores. Very few good restaurants. Deal breaker!
From my perspective as a Trump supporter and lifelong Republican, my personal rendition of hell involves living in a place like Seattle or Chicago. I am not even applying to law schools in cities off to the left that are intolerant of people like me. All of the schools that I am applying to are fairly regional and those schools are only in regions that I would be happy in. One way I am looking at it, if the state didn't go red this past election, I am not applying there. Particularly if you possess political aspirations, your talent may not be utilized in a red state.
So from somebody else on the opposite side of the political spectrum, those are my thoughts!
If I were in your position, I would wait until June, and also finish undergrad and then start thinking about moving to either go to a T14 or a strong regional school in a place that you could really see yourself staying for a while. I think transferring is very difficult and too much of a risk both academically and professionally. It's probably better to wait a little bit rather than rush into a program that you might regret.
Also, if you do go to a T14 or a strong regional school, you could always move back to Oklahoma at some point and get back into progressive politics then. I think part of the allure of a T14 law degree is that you can take it pretty much anywhere in the US.
http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdaily/2012/04/what-the-numbers-dont-say-law-school-applicants-are-getting-older-not-dumber.html
This one shows the average age of students entering T14 schools (and the age range for some of them):
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-usual-ages-of-first-year-students-in-top-US-law-schools
I also saw a chart a while back that sorted law schools by the average age of their 1Ls but I can't find it. Hope this helps though.
Personally disagree with this. Parts of Texas have many blue safe zones and there are avenues for anyone looking to get into politics to find their way. I think it is imperative for both reds and blues to diversify and move to all areas of the country. The only way we will get anywhere is if we actually interact with the opposite side rather than continue to live in the polarized world we currently live in.
@"J. Tharp" Food is so so so important! I completely get it. I have no experience with OK, but I lived in Boise Idaho for a number of years and surprisingly the foodie scene was popping! I think if you go to any inner city you can find those who are culinarily enlightened! For me, the best thing about living in a place like Seattle or Chicago would be the food!
I give back how 7Sage helps me.
J.Tharp- don't apologize. I am all about politics, and hope to have some kind of play in it whether through studies or action once I am out of school. This was definitely my own doing, as I tend to bring up political conversation much of the time.
Not the best person to have at a party
I'm kind of in the same boat as you are. I was also debating whether or not I should go to a T3/T4 school and just go for the Top 10 in class, but realistically that is just not something we can bank on. Everyone in our classes are going to have that same goal in mind, and it'll probably be very, very difficult... I've always been top 10/top 15 % in my undergrad, so I'm hoping I can keep that momentum up in law school, but who knows....
I think location will be everything. There are some T2/T3 school's I am looking at in area's I would LOVE to live, and I hear that they have great regional connections and have talked to a couple of alumni's that were very happy at those school's and ended up staying in that state due to the connections they've made.
Second, SHOUT OUT TO ALL MY LIBERALS!
@lawschoolstuff16 I wanted to thank you for that fantastic piece of information in regards to transferring! I was not aware of a lot of that. I do know that there are a couple of odd stipulations that some school's have in regards to transfers... I visited U of R law last year and talked to a 1L that transferred from a T4 school in DC, and she said that UofR informed her that they do not offer any scholarships to transfer students, only to incoming 1L's. So instead of transferring to the school and starting 2L, she actually did 1L ALL OVER again just to get those scholarships... pretty crazy. She said that she has heard that this is the norm for a lot of school's, and you can really miss out on scholarship money and other opportunities through a transfer... just something to consider.
Yeah, exactly! Obviously, you *can* transfer if you don't mind those missed opportunities or if for whatever emergency you need to. I don't ever want to make things black and white. But, if you can avoid that you should. And I certainly don't think you should opt for starting 1L with the intentions of transferring as opposed to retaking the LSAT. Financially, one is significantly cheaper than the other (maybe about $50,000 cheaper lol) and just requires some time and patience.
I know I really want to do well in law school, be on law review, join moot courts (if my schedule permits) and participate in OCI/EIW. I don't want to be in big law 10 years out of graduating, but I know I want to do biglaw for maybe 5 years after law school until all my loans are paid off. I don't come from a lot of money (grew up with a single mom who dropped out of high school) and know that it's going to be on me to support myself. So, it only makes sense that I give myself as many opportunities as possible to be able to pursue positions that will allow me to pay off my loans faster. Just my two cents!
So you guys are going to be seeing me around for a while. I just extended six months even though I don't know how well I did on the December test because unless I am just the luckiest person in the world, I did not get a 170. So, I am going to plan for June but I'm not going to take the LSAT again until 173 is my average score!
That is the best advice I've heard. This is exactly what I've done since I've decided to go to law school. Its important for me that I go somewhere I could see myself living after I'm done. I spent a lot of time researching California, the law schools there, cities, than their avg lsat, avg $ awarded. I have since narrowed my schools down and aimed at getting in those.
@lawschoolstuff16 I think it's a good sign too! Honestly, when I was considering out of state schools previously, these were my top 3. But, at some point I decided it was unrealistic - not getting into these schools, but just moving in general. Then I just realized... If I don't want to live here, I don't have to. We're so excited for a new adventure. It's all I can think about!