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Moment of truth: Need sincere advice
LSATtruth.
Alum Member
I was accepted At northeastern on a full ride and was selected for the public interest fellowship. I was waitlisted at Georgetown(preferred waitlist), Duke, Northwesten and UPENN. I am having hard time deciding is it worth fighting to get into a t-16 with More name recognition but eventually getting deep in debt because I likely wouldn't be receiving scholarship I assume even if I got in since I've been waitlisted. I am a URM from very humble background. Graduating from law school debt free would mean a lot to me.
Figting to get into higher ranked school + plus accumulate debt verses lower ranked school and fill ride.
I want to go into public interest law and northeastern fits that model perfectly.
Comments
What are your career goals? If public interest or non-profit work is your aim, then Northeastern is a solid choice and has name recognition in the non-profit community and that reputation is getting even better. Graduating with no debt is the best strategy if you want to do public interest as you'll likely not be making much anytime soon. Government work is different though and that alumni network and name recognition can help, but Northeastern has a very interesting program to help you get a solid resume before graduating. I'm planning on public interest work, and given your situation, I would go Northeastern in those circumstances.
The above advice is good.
I think it depends on career choice, how much need based financial aid you could get at the other schools, and what actions you are going to take to get into those schools.
If it's not a ton of work to just wait and see where you get in, then keep waiting. Worst case, you put a deposit down at Northeastern and keep your options open at the other schools. Northeastern cannot make you withdraw from applications for which you have not received a final yes/no.
Between a full ride and absolutely no financial aid, I would go with the full ride. There are just too many stories out there (http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/ and http://outsidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/) about people going to good law schools and getting screwed because they took on so much debt. I myself am incredibly weary of paying too much for even a top school.
Sorry to spam here, but you also might find this tool helpful:
https://www.lstreports.com/compare/gulc/northeastern/duke/
You can compare employment and cost stats between schools. I recognize that there are so many factors that go into a law school decision, but this website provides some important hard data. You need to be fully realistic about taking on debt versus your employment prospects upon graduation.
Depends on what your goals after school are (As Eric already mentioned). You will most likely have to take out a loan for living expenses; I'd just take the full ride and use this time to study and get prepped for 1L; so you can keep a good class standing, to keep the scholarship.
You can find similar information and maybe talking to lawyers within the field. I have talked to a legal recruiter to reinforce this thought that I have being that "names of school and rank do matter" but as those stated above it depends on your career goal's and what law you want to practice. Big Law/ Corporate law leans heavily towards students from top schools and name recognition. Now if you wanted to practice these types of law and still went to a lower tier school then your goal should be then to be at the top of your class Why? Because grades and class rank still matter and as the legal recruiter told me your school name matters because if you work at a big firm they want to advertise you. Is this right? That depends on whose interests your talking about... and this is one reason why there is a heavy lean towards name in firms, I guess it’s like bragging and credibility rights.
This does not mean you are good lawyer, law school does not teach you how to be a lawyer. Your experience through the legal field does that. You are just taught how to speak, write, and think like one. So…I have thought about this a lot and I still have this philosophy that its not where you go but it's what you do that matters.
But going to a school with high credibility MAY MAKE IT EASIER at the start of your professional career to get to where you want to go. I have met judges that went to very low tier schools but as they said they had to claw their way up and sometimes it was based on luck through random meets during networking. So schools or the name wont determine your path but it can make things a lot easier. Thus we can only negotiate based on what we have leverage for
Then there comes money...
I am not sure about the public interests field but from what I assume it may not be as black and white as it may be in corporate/big law world. If I were me and wanted to go into Public Interests I would take the better scholarship since I may not be making a lot of money coming right out of law school (but again this depends).
All you can do is have good judgment and play your cards right.
Just my insight.
I would choose the highest ranked school I get into unless there is another school that has a program, connection, or higher placement rate for the kind of place that I'd want to work at. I also think there are quite a few things to consider such as:
1. Do you want to practice in Massachusetts? If yes, then Northeastern is great. If no, some of those other schools offer much more mobility because they are more known across the US.
2. Are there specific types of places in public interest law that you aspire to work in? For example if your goal is to work at the ACLU, then some of those other schools may give you a leg up as some of those positions are both highly competitive and scarce. Conversely, if you want to be a a public defender in your area then Northeastern could be great for that.
3. Have you looked into LRAP programs? If you are confident about pursuing a career in public interest law, LRAP programs help PI attorneys shoulder the cost of law school. Georgetown has a some options beyond the federal LRAP program https://www.law.georgetown.edu/careers/funding-public-sector/scholarships-loan-support-programs.cfm
It's a tough choice but I think the cost of attending a school (that would best position me for the career that I want) is definitely worth it. This is especially the case because rank matters for law school and there are more financing options for those who aspire to work as public interest attorneys. Definitely contact some of the schools you are considering and find out more information before making the choice. If you want to work in MA and Northeastern has a program that you like, then by all means go with the full ride. If there is a little uncertainty regarding location then I would go with the higher ranked options.
I would fight the temptation to choose prestige. I think in this economic and political climate it would be unwise to choose a school based on name recognition. In my opinion, people overstate the importance of prestige in the real world. It varies greatly with which type of career you want and also what other things you have to offer. But prestige isn't everything. If you want to do public interest and end up going to a high ranked school where you have to pay sticker price I would bet that you end up not going the public interest route. I've seen it happen to friends of mine who wanted to do public interest and because of debt choose not too. Many say they will work at a private firm for a few years and then move back to public interest but that jump is much harder than it seems for two main reasons from what I can tell. Your network and life is very different when you work in the private sector. You might get used to the lifestyle and find it hard to change or just not be able to forge connections while you're working in the private sector to make that kind of leap later. Secondly public interest lawyers and others might not consider your commitment to public interest real making it that much harder in an already hard job market to begin with. I think people also underestimate the amount of debt that they can find themselves in when choosing to go to any school for sticker price. There are random fees, health insurance, living costs, so many things that you have to consider and think when will my savings run out? I think another important factor to consider is employment statistics. If you can get off the waitlist and get tuition remission of a substantial amount then it might be worth it. But if you truly want to do public interest I would choose Northeastern. I am applying this year to a broad range of schools and one of my main priorities is minimizing debt. I not only want to do public interest but I also want options. How could graduating with tons and tons and tons of debt not force you to take a job in the private sector? I have a friend who went to UMD (state school) and is working as an immigration attorney in Texas. She said she wished she had chosen the lower ranked school that gave her more tuition remission. Could she have gotten a job as a lawyer after graduating from a lower ranked school? Maybe yes, maybe no? She is straddled with debt and a lot less than those who go to private schools. Last thing, the conditions for qualifying for LRAP are not written in stone. I've heard of lawyers who were working at two different public interest jobs for ten years and under the Obama administration their jobs were reclassified and their loans didn't qualify for forgiveness anymore. I don't mean to be a doomsayer but don't mistake possibility for probability. Look at employment statistics, average debt that you would incur if you got off the waitlist, what you want from life, what makes you happy and importantly what makes you unhappy. Consider your life with insane amounts of debt. How would that effect the choices you make? That clearly depends on your safety net and a myriad of other factors. It's a tough decision and I wish you luck. Check out this podcast: http://abovethelaw.com/2017/04/the-decision-10-prospective-law-students-decisions-tackled-at-once/ I haven't listened to it yet but it's about making these types of decisions. Maybe listening to other people could help you.
Good luck!
Absolutely talk to lawyers.
@RafaelBernard
Very good advice. You brought up many important pieces of information.
LRAP should not be taken for granted.
http://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2017/04/05/522575533/teachers-lawyers-and-others-worry-about-the-fate-of-student-debt-forgiveness
LRAP reform is certainly possible in the next few years, including putting a cap on it that would really decrease one's forgiveness.
I also agree with not buying too much into prestige. I might ruffle some feathers with this statement, but I think the problem is not that people are overvaluing prestige generally, but that they are overvaluing the prestige of schools not called HYS. And look, one thing I find incredibly valuable about 7Sage is just how positive and aspirational everyone around here really is. Those who attend top schools and worked hard to get there are undoubtedly deserving. But there is a real danger in thinking that T14 is a magical path to lifelong success. Many T14 schools have under employment rates at around 15-25%. I myself am terrified of the thought of paying $300,000 (not to mention foregone wages over three years), only to end up with a 1 in 5 chance of not being employed in full time legal work.
That does not even account for the many many lawyers who are fired from big law after several years because they can be replaced by less experienced, cheaper recent graduates.
I don't know. It's a tough decision.
I would say absolutely go with the full ride. Especially if Northeastern fits the kind of law you want to practice. I have friends that graduated T14 law schools with mountains of debt, and felt pressured to take high-paying jobs for firms or in areas they really didn't want to practice in just to pay off that debt. You could also have better success at a lower ranked (but still good) school, because you have a better shot at being in the top of your class, getting on law review, and getting more opportunities as a result. I cannot overstate the importance mitigating your debt while in school. I have a good friend that went to Emory, and 15 years later she's paying $1000 a month to try to pay off her debt. She often says she wishes she would have went to a less prestigious school with a cheaper price tag.
Yes, exactly.
The thought also terrifies me.
Oh man, this.
The reasoning above about the T14 being a made-up-prestige-obsession is not at all supported by the data on law school graduate performance though. Yeah, we can debate how arbitrary it is for a school to be ranked 14 vs 16, but I wouldn't extrapolate that reasoning to compare a school ranked much further below to another. Law school is not like other schools. It's not about snobbery and prestige for its own sake, but measurable levels of performance. When I say, choose the higher ranked schools if you can, I'm not saying that because it sounds better or even that you should attend a school because it is 2 positions ahead of another. In this specific instance we're talking about a difference of 50 to 58 positions. The rankings matter statistically. Look at the statistics--Upenn has an unemployment rate of 8% upon graduation vs Northeastern's 65%. Top law schools do have the best stats regarding post graduate employment and placement. Here's some info on why the T14 matters: http://abovethelaw.com/2014/08/why-you-absolutely-should-care-about-law-school-rankings/
Yeah, but until this actually changes, estimating the effect is largely speculation. I do agree that this is something to be aware of and consider, but the social value of loan forgiveness programs for law school graduates is quite different than it is undergraduates. In addition, some institutions do have a few options. Northwestern for example, has initiatives to support those interested in public interest law-- https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2016/02/northwesterns-new-initiatives-make-law-school-more-affordable
I agree, going to a good regional school can be great, but the employment market is supersaturated with attorneys. Sometimes people who say: take the free ride no matter what, do not consider this fact. The amount of people with JDs far exceed the need for them. This makes it much harder for graduates to get hired. If you want to work in big law that absolutely matters, as top firms hire directly from T14s or those ranked #1 in their class from other law schools. If you want to be a public defender in an area near Northeastern, then depending on need in your area, that could work well for you. If you don't have the connections to line up a job or you don't rank at the very top of your class though, choosing any law school could become a problem later (on hence all the articles about whether a JD is worth it).
Not HYS, but the T14 schools listed above Northwestern, Duke, UPenn, and Georgetown (now 15) all have at least double the rate of job placement performance that Northeastern has upon graduation. Law school rank is based on a combination of variables. https://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/articles/law-schools-methodology
I think we can debate the merits of how much selectivity should matter vs median LSAT score, but even if we think those variables are all ridiculous and snobby, the rank that they add up matters to employers. Going to a T14 does statistically translate to better job placement and sometimes a higher salary.
Let's forget the T14 rank for a bit though. If you can get into a school like UPenn, which according to USNWR had an "employed at graduation" rate of 92.3% in 2015, you would still be much better off. Duke's employment at graduation was 88%, Georgetown's 70%, Northwestern's 79.5%, and Northeastern's 35.3%. Those are huge differences in employment rate upon graduation. I'd wonder how many of the 35% employed from Northeastern are from the top of their class academically. In law school, graduating at the top is a different game. A full ride is great especially for public interest, but what good is it if you are less likely to be hired? Debt is an important factor, but it isn't the only one and there are ways to reduce the amount.
Don't just take my word for it, look at the stats too.
https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/duke-university-03117
https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/georgetown-university-03032
https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/northeastern-university-03076
https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/northwestern-university-pritzker-03050
https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/university-of-pennsylvania-03140
This is the best advice on this thread. Period.
Well said @nesa
PREACH @"nessa.k13.0"
Let's also not forget that Northeastern doesn't give out traditional grades or class rank. This further adds to the need to distinguish yourself while in law school through co-ops, internships, etc.
I think if OP wants public interest within Boston, Northeastern for free is better than T14 with debt. But by choosing the full ride, you need to understand that many career options may be closed.
Check out Northeastern's recent ABA employment disclosures:
http://www.northeastern.edu/law/pdfs/careers/statistics-2016.pdf
http://www.northeastern.edu/law/pdfs/careers/statistics-2015.pdf
@"nessa.k13.0" Awesome response! And thank you for bringing in good, hard evidence and thoughtfulness. 7sage is such a great community because it's really about being sincere and helpful and you are a big part of that.
I do not question that employment outcomes at top schools are better than those that are significantly lower ranked. What I question is whether those outcomes are worth an extra $300,000.
I guess we could debate ranking methodology and such, but I tend not to trust USNWR. No ranking is perfect, but I prefer Above The Law. In their rankings, 62% of Northeastern graduates were employed in the law, whereas Georgetown's rate is 72% and Northwestern's is 84%. Large portions of the elite law school graduate class end up in "BigLaw," where incomes are temporarily high and able to bear the burden of debt, but over one third of lawyers who work for such firms are fired or quit within three years (https://lawreview.law.pitt.edu/ojs/index.php/lawreview/article/viewFile/174/174). I think that number rises substantially by 5-7 years. Law School Transparency says that the monthly cost for Georgetown over a 10 year loan is just over $3,500.
To me, that marginal gain in employment might not justify the massive extra cost. But I think it comes down to the individual. It depends on your life/career goals, your personal network, your risk appetite, etc.
In sum, I'm not saying that rankings do not matter at all, nor that one shouldn't strive to get into the best possible school. I'm saying that regardless of where one ends up admitted, the cost to attend that school should be considered with extreme scrutiny.
I couldn't agree with @"nessa.k13.0" more!
@"Ron Swanson" also brings up a very important point that I was unaware of about Northeastern's lack of traditional ranking.
I am also a URM from humble beginnings who is debt adverse. The thing is sometimes that debt is well worth it. I looked into Northeastern's LST report and unemployment rate is hovering around 65% at graduation. Then you have to consider part-time work and short-term employment. I'd have to surmise that somewhere around 30% land with long-time, full-time work after graduation. Just something to consider....
OP's options are (possibly) Duke, Northwestern, UPENN at sticker price (that's ~200k in debt upon graduation plus interest) OR Northeastern full-ride.
Keep in mind that OP wants to do public interest. Accordingly, my advice did not pertain to those interested in big law. That is a completely different career path. Going solo or working at a small firm also likely requires its own set of considerations. This all depends on what you want to do with your law degree.
If I were OP, I would ask Northeastern for employment information regarding students on that public interest fellowship vs the general student body. Everybody should be looking at employment statistics and importantly break those down. However, there's a reason there's so much cautionary advice on the internet about paying a lot for law school. Having zero loans gives public interest lawyers flexibility and freedom. You can take on a lower paying job, for example, while you build your network. Northeastern is not a bad school. It has that brand name recognition specifically for public interest. Yes, its (USNWR) employment statistics are telling and I would never advise anyone to pay for it. Full scholarship is a different story especially considering the other options.
Ultimately, a decision of this magnitude comes down to more than just debt and employment statistics (each requiring a breakdown so you can really see what's going on). I, for one, know nothing about OP other than the two options he gave us. But as it stands, if one is serious about going into public interest, I would be extremely wary of paying full price.
But everyone is different. Disagreement is fine. I mean these decisions are the bread and butter of our lives. They determine so much. Career goals play a huge part. Big law? Sure, whatever. You'll pay those loans back. Public fricken interest. Noooo wayyyyyyy. Just do the math. You'll have rolled over thrice in your grave before you unshackle yourself from that debt.
However, regardless of the tone above, I am willing to change my mind on this. But right now am I inclined to believe that incurring ~200k in debt is worth it if someone is interested and, importantly, serious about pursuing public interest law? I have yet to be convinced. What is more convincing is that the person gets to 1L, sees their loans start to pile up, and decides to go into private practice "for a few years" before switching to public interest. The caveat here is Yale for their unique repayment program.
Many good points here. I also look to Above the Law's rankings because the factor they weigh the most in their statistics is full-time long term employment requiring bar passage.
Distinguishing yourself and networking will be key at Northeastern. That is a good point. I would counter your second point with the possibility of any career options that would be closed to you if you incur a couple hundred thousand dollars in debt.
Hey @AllezAllez21 and @RafaelBernard !
Yeah I'm surprised that it's justified to say go to Northeastern vs Upenn or Northwestern, if those schools are in reach, because we don't like an elitist ranking system. I'm not saying everyone needs to go to the highest ranked school possible at all, just don't dismiss the T14 because it appears to be only about prestige to you.
I like Above the Law as well, but it doesn't matter if we trust USNWR or not. The value of their ranking system is not imaginary. Check out how hard the market is for graduates of schools below second tier. I wish it didn't matter what law school we went to but it does. I do not think people kill themselves to get into T14 because they only like the way it looks. There is much more to it than that. It would be sad to sell yourself short and find out later on.
I agree with @"Alex Divine" about debt at times. The value added to your JD compounded overtime can much more easily produce more of a return with T14 schools. Again there are more financing options for public interest attorneys, so paying back full tuition does not have to be his only option. I hope @"LSATtruth." looks into programs that the others schools offer to before making a decision. I'd want to find out why Northeastern's employment rate is low and see if you would reasonably be able to outperform an entire class. It will take much more than just networking to stand out---your performance would need to be at the top of the class.
Good luck with your decision!
Debt is a serious issue though. So much so the American bar posted a blog post about it.
http://www.americanbar.org/groups/litigation/committees/jiop/news_analysis/articles/spring2016-0616-dont-let-law-school-debt-overshadow-your-future.html
Northeastern's employment rate may be low due to reasons other than "a bad education". I would contact the Schools recruitment team, inquire why their numbers are low and what is being done to correct the issue. Keep in mind, some schools pay employers/law firms to test ride students with employment, so the law school can inflate their employment numbers for postgrads -cough SMU/The Bridge to Practice programs.
Having a free ride would alleviate most pains of the schooling itself but everything has to be considered.
No matter what school you go to, you have NETWORK. Networking opens up opportunities for jobs and everything in life.
On a random note; if you have a dark humor check out this blog for everything hating on law schools. http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com
This one gives info on every school - https://lawschoolsewagepitprofiles.wordpress.com
So here's my 0.02 - Did you not apply/get accepted to BC or BU? If you got accepted at Penn/Duke you have to have killer stats... which would likely warrant significant money from BC/BU if you leveraged your admittance into the aforementioned T13's. I think those 2 are your best options given your circumstances.
A friend of mine (from a humble background) got into Harvard law school. He could only pay for it through loans. When his mom asked him how he was going to pay for it after school he said "with a degree from Harvard". Sure enough, he is making more than enough to pay everything off in a short period of time.
One factor I would think to consider is to go to school where you think you would want to live afterwards. The school is where you make your connections and become known. So the best jobs may end up coming from where you've made your reputation. I say that because, this same person, stayed in the area to make his salary. Had he come back to the midwest, I am not sure he would have done so well.
I am really thankful for all the helpful advice and wanted to give an update. UCLA at the last minute offered to interview me and I did the interview and it went well. However, I just received an email saying they wanted to do another interview with a professor of their public-policy/public interest program which is after the the May1st, deposit deadline at the other schools. IN fact, I believe it is after the deposit deadline at UCLA school but I still have not received any official offer from them as to whether I have been "waitlisted" or officially accepted. Any idea as to what could be going on? I guess I am not going to have any other choice but to submit the deposit to Northeastern for safety.
As a (much) older law school hopeful, I have to say this would be a no-brainer for me, for three reasons:
1) You want to go into public interest, a field with few high paying jobs and increasing competition for them. http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/are_public_interest_and_public_sector_careers_worth_the_cost_of_law_school_/
2) Northeastern has a stellar reputation in legal community for public law, and the fellowship will give you networking opportunities you need to market yourself well.
3) I've spent almost 20 years of my life paying off debt (some mine, some not) and I'm just now (at age 43) seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. The the opportunity, freedom, and peace you will have if you can graduate debt-free will far outweigh any (perhaps perceived) prestige you might acquire from a T14 school-- if it comes at the price that effectively means years of indentured servitude. Trust me.
I agree with lenoreludlow. My experience is in finance and I always remind people that higher ranked college have a sticker price of maybe $200,000 in tuition and fees, but also have a 6%-9% interest rate attached that starts from day one the loan is taken out. That means you have to find a job that pays big bucks that probably isn't in public interest...and you'll need to work that job for a long time to pay it off, unless you wealthy wife or uncle on the side. Those student loan payments start exactly 6 months after graduating.