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When to switch between Powerscore and Core Curriculum
I have just finished the core curriculum for Logical Reasoning, would it be better to continue with the core curriculum or start reading the LR Bible?
Option 1: 7sage LR --> LR Bible --> 7sage RC --> RC Bible --> 7sage LG --> LG Bible
Option 2: All of 7sage Core Curriculum --> All the Powerscore Bibles
Comments
I would finish the entire core curriculum because I can see the bibles and 7Sage getting confusing when doing them in tandem. So I would finish all of 7Sage's CC and then reach out for additional resources if need be. I'd also recommend The LSAT Trainer and Manhattan LSAT over Powerscore. Manhattan, at least in my opinion, is way better than Powerscore. I like Powerscore and think the bibles can be useful for some, especially beginners. Yet, the focus on logic 7Sage and Manhattan use is much better for the LSAT.
tl;dr Finish all of 7Sage first and see if you even need anything else. There's a chance you might not. If so, I'd try The Trainer and/or MLSAT. I find the Bibles don't tend to mix well with other curricula because of their heavily trademarked techniques that over complicate things sometimes and that you'll have to memorize first before you can even get into the actual learning.
i have the bibles i read most of the LR Bible up to and including Formal Logic (c13); i found most of the things to be similar to 7sage.
After that i read the LG Bible about 250 pages to learn Linear games, Advanced Linear, then Grouping, then i found and joined 7sage. Currently i am going through 7Sages CC and am trying to get to completing up to the LG section.
My advice would be to learn Logic games before RC, Logic games takes a while to get used to learning the foundations of the diagramming.
I haven't learned the 7sage LG yet, but i can say that the LG Bible got me up to speed of what to expect and how to achieve the answers. However, the 7sage "foolproof method" and JY's explanations are superior. LG Bible was great for the foundations but 7sage showed me how to improve speed.
all in all, i say learn Logic Games first.
My only concern is that the 7Sage CC builds off itself and is constructed purposely so you are exposed to the techniques you will use later on to help you with, say, games. Skipping the logic lessons beforehand could be detrimental. Also the Powerscore diagramming methods are bit more cumbersome and rely too much on not rules. I love Powerscore and think they are a great company, but they are a product of a bygone era in many ways. They haven't really changed their books to reflect the changes on the test and JY's diagramming methods are just more intuitive, at least to me.
Thanks Alex! You explanation is on point!
I used Powerscore before using 7Sage. In hindsight, I would not have used Powerscore at all. Powerscore is good (especially the LG Bible) and it prepared me to quickly learn the material in 7Sage's core curriculum, but I believe your time is better spent using 7Sage.
I did:
LG Bible --> LR Bible --> half of RC Bible --> 7Sage Core Curriculum
I feel almost the same way. I don't feel like the Bibles were a waste per say, but damn if they didn't make things more complicated then they needed to be. Also, like I said 7Sage's video curriculum and JY's methods are second to none imo. The only other books I really felt helped me were Manhattan's LSAT books and The LSAT Trainer. Both of which remind me quite a bit of how JY approaches the LSAT. I feel like Powerscore tries to rename things and try to avoid teaching the hard logic sometimes. I think they are great books to read if you're like a Sophomore in college and just want to get a head start on some LSAT concepts.
I agree re: eschewing PowerScore. I used the bibles to start off my studying (then took a subsequent online course), but used the LSAT Trainer after the bible's and find the Trainer MUCH better. I had to un-learn a lot of PS's ways in LR (like, to read the stimulus BEFORE the question stem(??)). And I feel like it might have messed me up on Games, too, as someone pointed out earlier about their cumbersome diagramming practices. I don't have anything to compare it to, but I watch JY's vids & he seems to have a much better strategy (even tho I don't know how to do it, heh).
I just now bought the Manhattan Prep LG book (I believe MP & the Trainer are by the same person/people), but I'm scared to start it, as I'm registered for Sept & don't know if I can learn a whole new system in time after studying for a year+!!!
Oh yea last thing - Powerscore Reading Comp Bible is TRASH - throw it far, far away from you. Or just recycle it.
> Oh yea last thing - Powerscore Reading Comp Bible is TRASH - throw it far, far away from you. Or just recycle it.
It's definitely not my favorite. The Manhattan Prep LG book diagrams pretty straightforward and similar to JY. The main difference is they use a logic chain for in and out games that you may or may not find useful. It does take a while to learn and master, so if you are on limited time, stick with what you know.
@"Alex Divine" ah, that's helpful. you think it's worth it to learn MP's LG stuff for sept ?? i'm consistently PTing getting 0-2 wrong in LR sections, 2-4 in RC, but like, 5-12 wrong in LG..so, it's not like i really "know" much, lol.
By MP you mean Manhattan's Lg system? If so, no definitely go with 7Sage. Learning games is such a visual exercise that seeing it diagrammed in real time while JY simultaneously explains it all is going to beat out any book. I liked MLSAT's LG book for certain things, i.e., rule substitution questions, and I even used the logic chain thing for in-and-out games for a while. Even still, I just don't think anything compares to the LG curriculum of 7Sage. If you complete it, all the drills, and fool proof every game from PTs 1-35 or whatever, you will be missing very few. That I can promise you.
Again, 7Sage's approach to games is remarkably similar to MLSAT which I like. There's no bull or gimmicks; straight logic. And things just make sense. God damn Powerscore had me writing out spending 10 minutes on diagramming alone, lol. It could be that I sucked back then too, but still.
@"Alex Divine" ah OK, that's real helpful, thanks. Yea my question was more so do you think it's worth it (to learn a whole new LG approach, whether 7sage or Man. Prep) given the amount of time I have until the Sept. '17 test. but from your "you will be missing very few" that kind of sold me on 7sage. I'm going to sign up for the LG curriculum now! Yea, PowerScore LG has not lead me to any type of success. Thanks!
7Sage is the way to go and it is definitely not worth learning any other system, especially for LG. Logic games is hand downs best learned by a 7Sage approach. The reason: There is no approach or philosophy. No gimmicks, no extra BS to memorize. Jy teaches us to think so we can solve a variety of questions without needing special names and tricks like, say, Powerscore.
If there's anything 7Sage will always be remembered for, besides providing an amazing and affordable LSAT prep, is it's LG curriculum. Legend has it JY's diagrams on Youtube and 7Sage made it so the LSAC had to literally make the games different. Sure, it's just a myth, but there's definitely some solid evidence that may be the case. That's how damn good 7Sage is!
I went from missing like 3/4 games to -5 in about a month. I swear by 7Sage with my life because before I found it I was so disillusioned I figured I'd just get perfect scores on both LRs and RC and forget LG completely because It would never make any sense to me. That's when I found 7Sage and now LG is one of my fav and consistent sections!
I would not use power score at all. This and maybe the LSAT trainer is all you need.
I don't like to say Powrscore isn't good, but damn I'd like anyone to make an argument that 7Sage isn't better in every way! Especially when it comes to games.... Just no comparison.
The thing is, many people in the past have had good experiences with Powerscore and it has name recognition that is derived from a bygone era when there wasn't anything like 7Sage. It was Kaplan, Princeton Review (both of those pretty much suck) PS came along and it was definitely way better than what was out there. Thing is now, 7Sage and a things like The LSAT Trainer have just seemed to have found more efficient and new ways to "beat" the best.
I could go on forever on why 7Sage is the best... But I do that enough
I'm very much a visual learner, so Powerscore's visual diagramming has been helpful for me. However I kinda agree with the sentiment that some of Powerscore's techniques makes things more complicated then they need to be. I read in a 180er's post that their L.G. bible focuses too much on initial inferences and not laws, which I definitely agree with. Anyhow, 7Sage's games videos have been a blessing! I really appreciate how J.Y.'s techniques tries to make things as simplistic as possible. Not being the most left brained, I've been worried about the games section since I've started studying for the exam. However, the Foolproof method has really helped me pick up the games faster. Last thing: I've heard great things about the LSAT Trainer. For those who've used it, how do y'all like it?
All good stuff! As for The Trainer, I think it is worth the read. At the very least, even if you've already mastered the fundamentals, I think Mike Kim has a very unique view of the test and test makers. He wrote the book after many years at Manhattan LSAT and then studying 10+ years worth of LSAT data and seemed to really be able to get into the minds of the LSAT authors.
If you can find it used or can afford it new, give it a read!
I agree with those saying it would be best to nix powerscore. Those books don't mix well with the 7sage curriculum. PS shows you tricks where as 7sage shows you the theory and application of certain lessons. If you encounter a situation where those tricks don't work...it's gonna suck. If you switch to PS after 7sage it's easier to just abandon what you've learned with the 7sage lessons. If you already foolproofed LG, PS's LG Bible won't be of use and will likely make things worse because you have to learn that specific notation style.
Quick question?
I don't honestly know of any "tricks" Powerscore teaches? Does anyone have any example of these tricks? They have copyrighted names for things that make sense from a business perspective/copy right laws, but I can't think of a trick in any of the bibles that isn't a strategy like any other company would have, including 7Sage, for that matter. I think more or less the PS hate has become a meme on here.
I'm not endorsing them by any means, either. I just think they get an unfair rap. And maybe they do have some tricks I've forgotten but I never remember reading any tricks. I think David Killoram is a great LSAT author and knows his stuff. For me, JY's diagramming style was intuitive from the get go and that to me made it easier.
As @rnwanguma said: some of Powerscore's techniques makes things more complicated then they need to be. I read in a 180er's post that their L.G. bible focuses too much on initial inferences and not laws, which I definitely agree with. This is a definitely a valid criticism. And there's a few more. But I disagree the books lack theory and lessons and are just "tricks."
I started studying for the LSAT almost 5 yrs ago (ik long time) when the cambridge packets were around and power score was the bomb. I did manhattan, power score, kaplan courses over those years.
I think 7sage was just starting around 3/4 y ago and has gained prominence- the last year I did the LSAT trainer and used 7sage for LG and now am almost done with the core curriculum. From this I just think that powerscore is a waste of time ESP for logic games because once you start studying with too many different curriculums it just clouds the mind and you start thinking should i do it this way or this way or that way? and it gets in the way of successful studying imo.
All I remember from my few months with powerscore (4y ago) is the greater than signs and just nothing making sense. now LG is a piece of cake.
The trainer works great with the curriculum but I don't like how flaw questions are highlighted and grouped into different categories and there is a lot of lumping different question types into categories that just flew right over my head. Also 7sage attacks LR from a different perspective with the grammar lessons and premise/conclusion relationships which I like much better. If you need something extra i would def use that to supplement than something else.
with that said Mike Kim is great and answers questions personally on TLS message board and prob. If you email him - he seems like a solid guy
Haha, yeah, their pure sequencing games are hell! Things like that are why I didn't really ever catch on with them. 7Sage is where it is as!
100%! That's why I bought the whole curriculum since the lg was so great.
@rene4231 please do not waste your time by reading Powerscore LR book. I would suggest using the time you want to spend on LR "Bible" more productively by taking advantage of 7Sage analytics and drill question types that show up as high priority for you.
I have very specific reasons for not liking PS as much. We've definitely talked about them Alex. PS was probably the best at one point, but it isn't now. I've seen people here list reasons why they prefer other things to PS and I think they are pretty valid reasons. I don't doubt Killoram knows his stuff, I just think his methods of teaching via the PS books have been surpassed by other curricula like Manhattan LSAT, 7sage, and the LSAT Trainer. I think they get that rep because they are considered the best for LSAT prep and then people are surprised to find PS wasn't as helpful as other book and test prep companies. If PS works for someone though, then great!
When I say tricks I mean---strategies, methods, etc that work within specific situations before introducing theory and it's application. I say stay away from PS because there are many situations like in LG when you get games that are really bizarre, you don't learn how to apply the lessons you've learned to deal with those situations. The focus is more on learning their trademarked vocabulary. I also think PS doesn't emphasize taking PTs as much as 7sage.
Here's a link to another discussion about Powerscore https://7sage.com/discussion/#/discussion/comment/71000
Oh yes, we've certainly had this conversation before, lol.
I tend to agree with all of this. Especially PS having been better when there were less viable options on the market. I tend to think that other companies, 7Sage included, may put too much emphasis on taking PTs. Of corse, everyone's situations are doing to dictate how many is a "good amount" of PTs to take. However, I think certain companies can put too much emphasis on taking too many PTs. I think drilling and timed sections should make up the majority of your prep and not the PTs themselves. I know that's not what you're saying and PS does seem to have you drill more and buy more of their products to make more money off of you.... I don't think that's necessarily good.
Then again, people learn in different ways need to accommodate how they study. SO I guess I always play devil's advocate when people down talk PS because I'd rather let them make up their own minds. Go into a Barnes and Noble and skim through them. They make work great for you. I think checking out everything out there is a good idea before committing to one thing.
I know too many people that they've [PS Bibles] worked wonderfully for, and recently, too. After all, it is a standardized exam and what worked in 2003 should still be working now. Yet, there's a good argument we have better now, like 7Sage and MLSAT/Trainer. I don't want anyone to think I'm endorsing PS. There's a reason I don't use them anymore. Just keep and open mind. Besides, the LR Bible isn't all that bad
Either way, everyone knows where my heart lies, with @"nessa.k13.0" the rest of the sagers and 7Sage.
Ehhh, I don't think it's a waste. If it was for you personally, I can understand. I guess I just try to be positive: Hey, what works for some might not work for others. Personally, the LR Bible I found moderately helpful. Again 7Sage, MLSAT, The Trainer -- all were prep materials I personally found more helpful. I still think people should 1) get 7Sage and 2) see what else is out there that might work for you. People are so different and learn in such different ways. Sometimes the gimmicks and tricks of PS help people to internalize the information better than a more straightforward approach. I think at the end of the day we can all agree 7Sage is the best! and JY is the LSAT god himself!!!
Yeah, It turns out the LG games I thought were the hardest (pure sequencing) was simple because PS used greater than and less than signs. Seriously, how unintuitive. To me there's just nothing that even comes close to learning LG from 7Sage. For one, seeing it on a computer screen, digitally, it real time is like magic compared to reading the explanations after you've done a game in a book.
If I get a 175+ I'm getting a 7Sage logo tattoo
ETA: Who am I kidding, a 170 I'll be getting it, lol.
Yeah, I find this especially accurate with LG. I think LG is the one area where you should find a method that works and stick with it. Mixing and matching LR and RC tends to be fine, but when you're mixing and matching LG diagramming and techniques it's like writing in two different computer languages. It ain't going to work so well.
You're an Og studier. Shoot I remember getting the Cambridge packets the last day they were for sale. This was a year before I even started prepping. Things kept getting in the way: school, finals, girls, life, etc. I even had to rebuy the newer editions of some of the books I still use because I feared they'd be too old. I had like the 2013 Bibles and First Trainer. I am, however, glad I got my hands on those Cambridge packets. Now 7Sage and other companies have similar packets, but at the time those things were gold!
Thank you so much to everyone who replied! I will just be doing 7sage and nixing the PS bibles!
P.S. If you know anyone looking for the trilogy I'm selling all three for $100 (LOL!)
I think that's a good idea, despite me playing devil's advocate. Now you're trying to sell me some stuff we all just agreed was trash lmao
Haha yeah I'm old. Life keeps getting in the way too.
honestly you need to get a feel for it yourself, i found some poeple here are just lsat killers and go from 150 to 170 jus ton the core, lol not me so im doing this, and looking into a private course and whatever else can help. Good luck i hope youre one of the lsat killers
Hahaha!
Couldn't agree more. Some people just freakin kill it. I had an engineering buddy/roommate who was considering law school back some years ago. No bullsh*t took one test and got a 169. No prior studying for this test at all. Not a genius, either. He was just good at whatever this test required. Funny thing is he ended up getting a PhD -- or working towards one -- in Mechanical engineering. But imagine what even a month or 2 could have done for that 169......
@"Alex Divine" Well not everyone's learning approach will be best suited by 7Sage, so I don't find myself doing any harm in offering a very credible resource at a discount price! Might not help most, but could help some!
Haha I was just joking with ya an absolutely
I actually don't hate the bibles one bit! I'm one of the few 7Sagers who thinks they're good!
You'd probably have better luck selling them somewhere else, just because I'm not sure on the forum rules on selling books, and in general, 7Sagers tend to be people who have tried Powerscore and decided to go the way of the Sage
Don't sell the books!!! Definitely worth having for the explanations of PT answers. Ultimately you want to approach every LG the same. The voice guiding you through each game needs to be your own, not from Powerscore or 7sage etc. So, if I were you, I would put the books on the self, take the practice questions when you think you're a master, and then you can either see why PS is clumsy, or you can add a new perceptive to your arsenal. I have done both and find any conflict b/n them to be more helpful than harmful because I'm able to identify why:)
@"Alex Divine" Probably should have asked for opinions that BEFORE I ordered them. Oh well! Hope they will be able to help someone!
Is it possible to purchase just LG curriculum from 7sage, without purchasing the whole CC? Is that what you mean you did ?? Or do you mean you just watched the (free) LG explanation videos, which were helpful to you, and then you purchased the CC? I've watched the LG videos but I find myself confused... (w/ out having learned his ways via CC)
Yes I watched the games is what I mean, but honestly with the trainer I don't think you need the curriculum if you need it for logic games only. The curriculum is very valuable for logical reasoning the most I think. I'm scoring average 0 to -1lg without watching the lg curriculum yet just with J.Y's free explanations
There's an enlightened perspective. > @tuc28290 said:
No, it is available only with the rest of the CC.