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Realistic Expectations
rynehambright88
Alum Member
Hey gang.
I'm trying to set a baseline for myself and there seems to be A LOT of knowledge here so I feel like I can get some good feedback.
I'm attempting the LSAT for the third time at 29 (the last two times I took it was straight out of undergrad at 22 and then again 2 years ago). Both times, I went in completely unprepared and paid the price for it, scoring the in the mid to high 140's both times. As has been the case since I was young, I'm an excellent student and average standardized test taker. I know I'll have to put in a lot of hard work but I feel confident I can get into the 160's.
My undergrad GPA was a 3.76, which seems fairly competitive for some of the schools stats I've looked at. My main question...what is a realistic score to start seeing scholarship money. I have literally no interest in going to law school by taking out more loans. I went to a private undergrad in Nashville that I'm still paying for. I expect I will have to take out loans to live off of, but I would absolutely base my decision of where to go based on how much scholarship money I'm offered.
So what scores does that start happening at? I know T-14 are different, and that's another thing I'm confused on. How big of a difference is it to go to a T-14 vs. a lesser ranked school. I'm from the southeast (Currently in Nashville) and I would actually like to stay in the area but I guess I don't even know where and what programs I should be looking into.
Basically, I'm just trying to find a target to aim for.
I'm also not on a time crunch. Maybe at my age I SHOULD be, but right now my goal is to take the June test. If I'm not PT'ing high enough consistently, I will wait until October since I've missed this cycle anyway.
Anything you guys have or know would be much appreciated!
Comments
"lesser ranked school" is very very broad. I think you need to conduct more research, and then come back and ask questions. Right now people are going to give you very broad answers.
Questions I'd like to see you answer:
- Are you willing to leave Nashville?
- Why are you going to law school? Do you know what kind of work you'd like to get into after law school?
- Are you willing to go a tier 2 school? Go look at ABA employment data for ranked and unranked schools. This might help you come to a decision.
- Do you want to be a full time or part time program?
Welcome @rynehambright88
Yes, there is a pretty big difference in going to a T14 vs lesser ranked schools: In price, in opportunities, and in ... just about everything. However, that difference is much bigger as you drop past the T20/T30.
If you're in Nashville, Vanderbilt is a great law school if you want to live and practice in the area. An LSAT score in the high 160s is when significant scholarship money would start coming from them.
In the T14, each school is a bit different with respect to what score you'll need. After all, we are talking about 14 different schools! Be that as it may, I think a 170 is a safe place to aim to start getting good scholarship offers for the T14. Once you start heading into the T6 territory, 173+ seems to be the magic number. In general, being at or above a school's 75%tile LSAT score is a good place to aim if you're looking for a nice chunk of change.
Thanks Alex, this is awesome and just what I'm looking for. I have a friend who went to Vandy and he had, I believe a 167, and had an almost full ride.
Another thing I've been wondering is should I go to school where I want to live? A coworker just passed the bar a month or so ago and she's had a really tough time landing interviews here in Nashville because she went to school in VA. Is that a variable most people consider? Or is it more beneficial to go to a better school and potentially move back? I know that's a personal opinion of course but it's something I've definitely wondered about.
Yeah at this point, I'm fine with very broad answers. I know the more you can know the better, but just like with my experience with undergrad a lot of the things you don't know until you see them.
But to answer your questions....
Yes, unless you're going to a T13 school, you should go to school where you want to live. T13 schools have very portable degrees that tend to allow their graduates to practice all over the country. So if you end up attending a top school, your chances of moving back after you graduate are much better.
If you really want to stay in the Nashville area and you don’t want loans, It might be best to aim for a high 160s/low 170s and choose a school on the region. T14 schools can cost a pretty penny even with a high score but you have a greater chance of going to school anywhere. But since you’re wanting to stay in the South and loans are your main concern, I’d say aim for Vandy maybe or Emory I would imagine those would have strong names in the Southeast region. Also ... welcome to 7Sage! You’re gonna love it :-)
PS I grew up in North Alabama only a couple hours from Nashville love that city
Thanks Tringo! Yeah I moved here in 2009 and the city has just exploded. It's kind of insane. And part of the reason why I want to stay. Vandy seems to probably be my ceiling in terms of what I'm aiming for, while schools like Belmont, UT, and Emory could also be in the mix. Thanks for the help!
Hi, Don't worry about age. Plenty of people are in their 30s and 40s when they start law school and some people are older than this and make it work as well. In the words of an Olympic swimmer, don't place an age limit on your dreams.
I think the first thing you need to do is confirm your goals. Is there a specific area of law your interested in? Talk to some practicing lawyers and looking employment numbers in that field. Recognize that a job after graduation is not a guaranteed, even from a top school.
Then research more and find a school that matches your goal. Look at there lsat quartile and gpa median, if you're above the gpa median, then as Alex said, an lsat above the 75th should get you some aid, but a full ride will take probably 2 or 3 points above 75th. I'm guessing your work experience will help out too tho.
Learn from your past mistakes and really commit to studying and doing the lsat right! 7sage is you friend!
The main piece of advice I would give is that it is really difficult to justify the full expense of law school outside of getting a big law job. At full cost, you are looking at over $150000 in tuition plus living expenses. The Top 14 schools have vastly higher big law placement rates.
So what this means is that you either need to get a scholarship near full tuition or get into a top 14 school. Getting the scholarship at a place like Vanderbilt would be a great option if you want to stay in Nashville. Even if for some reason you don't end up with a Big Law job a Vanderbilt degree should get you a job in the area and the scholarship would mean you had minimized debt. If you get into a Top 14 school, especially the ones near the top of that range, you have a much better chance at a big law job. This security means that it can be worth paying full cost.
If you don't want to go into big law, you basically have the same options, but an acceptance near the bottom of the Top 14 with no aid usually isn't quite as appealing. The scholarship route is the same, you get a near full tuition scholarship to as highly ranked a school as you can and from there, you minimize debt since you won't have a big law salary to pay it back with. If you go to a school in the Top 14 you may choose to take on the debt and use the school's LRAP(Loan repayment assistance program) to help pay it back. You can't fully make the decision until you know exactly what LRAP terms you are dealing with and what your other options are.
If you're from the southeast and not fixed on TN, some other schools to consider might be Texas, Georgia, Bama, and Emory especially.
If you haven't already seen it, you should also check out Law School Transparency, which has compiled a ton of data: lstreports.com (Go to the reports section to look through the schools)
It sounds like Vanderbilt could be a really good fit for you. Rule of thumb generally is if you're looking for big scholarship money, you'll want to try to be at least at the 75th percentile at a school for both LSAT and GPA. Of course, your GPA is fixed, so if that's below the 75th then you can usually make up for it by having an even stronger LSAT.
Generally, outside of the T-14, yes you should aim to go to school in the area that you want to live and practice. It's a lot easier to make connections while you're in school in order to get a job afterwards.
There are a good number of us who are on the older side around here too (I'm 33) so you're in good company! It sounds like you're on the right track with being mindful of finances and doing your research. There's definitely scholarship money out there for the taking! And 7sage is a fantastic resource for pulling up that LSAT score.
Glad to have ya here!
I think others have given you excellent information on schools, so I'll just second that and move on. What I want to address is this:
I'm an excellent student and average standardized test taker.
I'm also an excellent student and average standardized test taker. At least, I was. Now I'm an excellent student and extraordinary standardized test taker. What I've learned through studying for the LSAT is that taking a standardized test is a skill that is not inherently set. It's like any other skill. Before they were great, Brett Favre was a shitty quarterback, Elvis Presley was a shitty musician, and William Faulkner was a shitty writer. Instead of just accepting that, they worked hard and got better.
We have identical GPA's and I too started out as an average standardized test taker. If I can do it, so can you. So if you're not a great tester, learn how to become one.
Thanks everyone for the feedback. I really, really appreciate. A lot of great information with encouragement which is a hard thing to find. I just tend to do better when I have defined goals instead of broad (i.e. instead of do well on the LSAT, get a 165 plus) and this was the info I needed to be able to set some for myself.
Also great rule of them to know for most schools I need to be in 75th percentile to see scholarship money. Gives me a set range to aim for.
Thanks again everybody and I'm glad to be a part of the community. And if anyone else has anything to add please do!