I heard that Law schools' LSAT standards are declining. Is there any data supporting this?

Rigid Designator

Hi everyone,

Anecdotally I have heard that the LSAT standards for law school have already, or are currently slightly declining. My understanding is that this has something to do with fewer applicants, and thus colleges having a harder time keeping high LSAT numbers.

Does anyone know if this is supported by any data?

I had a quick look at UVA for an example, and a year or two ago their median LSAT did dip by 1 point, but then it went back up again the year after. UChicago's has stayed the same in the last few years as far as I could tell. I'm wondering if this 'declining standards' idea is just an urban myth? Maybe it's only true of some schools? Just curious if anyone has read anything in detail about this topic.

Jonathan Wang

See here: http://outsidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/2015/12/tracking-dramatic-decline-of-lsat.html for a decent set of data. Whether you agree with the editorializing or not is irrelevant - the raw numbers are unmistakable and wholly uncontroversial.

Many of the top schools have generally been cutting class sizes instead of lowering standards too far; after all, they have reputations to uphold. See http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-26/the-best-law-schools-are-attracting-fewer-students.

Cross-referencing the two sets of data, even the T14/T20 is not wholly immune to lowering their standards. And then, you have schools like Brooklyn Law who have completely and totally jumped the shark and are now blaming the bar exam for their abysmal performance instead of the fact that their 25th percentile LSAT has declined 10 points in the last 5 years. No, that's not a typo.

Tina Cho

I have never heard that...actually I have heard kind of opposite thing.
What I heard is applicants are decreasing but students with higher score are increasing.
I guess this is because there are more prep companies out there compared to the past and students start to be good at preparing for LSAT....and the toughness of LSAT (70s) seems start to reflect that.
I don't know this is supported idea or just rumor though...

Tina Cho

Just read Jonathan's post.
There are a lot of rumors...but I guess numbers do not lie.

Alex

@"Rigid Designator" said:
Does anyone know if this is supported by any data?

Yeah, many law schools are lowering their standards. Many schools dramatically lowered their LSAT standards over the past 3-5 years. Some that comes to mind is CUNY Law, NYLS, Cardozo, and BLS. All have experienced ~5+ point drops in their LSAT medians..

However, the top 14 schools haven't lowered their standards too much. Though, as you mention, schools like UVA and HLS can be seen dropping their median LSATs by a point and others by a couple points... That said, we aren't likely to see a dramatic drop going forward, rather they'll just admit less students.

westcoastbestcoast

[link removed by admin]

Even though there has been an overall decrease in LSAT medians in the past years, it appears that the median LSAT scores in top fourteen schools were either the same or 1 or 2 points better. This article believes that it may indicate that there are more top scorers who are deciding to attend law school.

loosekanen

With the uncertainty in the job market a lot of folks probably are angling to T14 or bust because they simply can't risk not getting a job after racking up 100k+ of debt. Can't say that I blame them. This leaves most of the T14, and probably T20, unaffected (though WashU is giving a ton of scholly money to keep that median up no matter what it seems). The schools that are really getting hurt are the schools in the 50+ range who just can't attract the numbers of students anymore. The secret is out. Law school is expensive and the job market doesn't reflect an ability to repay a small home's worth of grad school debt.

Tina Cho

There was a thread talked about law school closing thing too right?
I did not read the details though...wonder what will happen to law market&law schools

Rigid Designator

It's interesting to see the data concerning 25th percentile numbers. I remember watching a lecture on YouTube, I think the prof was from UVA and used to work on the LSAT, and it was explained that since the median LSAT is what is reported for the purposes of rankings it doesn't matter for a school's median if it has a 25th percentile of 165 or, say, 150. The prof suggested that law schools just weren't using this feature of the maths as a chance to admit good students who maybe didn't have the LSAT score to help their median numbers (splitters, for example). Maybe this data is evidence that some schools realise their 25th percentile doesn't matter for their median. I don't know. Interesting either way. Thanks all.

Jonathan Wang

@"Rigid Designator" That's an excellent lecture! For the rest of you who haven't seen it: Worth a watch.

My problem with this whole thing (I know you didn't ask, but I have a big mouth) is that while medians might be how law schools are ranked, everyone has to take the bar exam. Bar pass rates are down across the country, correlated very strongly with the time that LSAT 25th percentiles started dropping, and you have law school administrators denying that there's anything wrong with their admissions procedures and instead it's the LSAT or the bar exam (or both) that are the problem. That kind of thinking irks me to no end.

CalPoliSci

@"Jonathan Wang" The link to your youtube video doesn't seem to work. Could you name the title and I will look it up elsewhere? I'm curious to hear this lecture.

Alex

@CalPoliSci said:
@"Jonathan Wang" The link to your youtube video doesn't seem to work. Could you name the title and I will look it up elsewhere? I'm curious to hear this lecture.

I think this is it:

Great watch anyway. Very informative!

CalPoliSci

@"Alex Divine" great! I will watch it ASAP

Rigid Designator

The part about percentiles is at 29:00, but begins around the 20:00 mark in the video, for those interested.

Alex

@"Rigid Designator" said:
The part about percentiles is at 29:00, but begins around the 20:00 mark in the video, for those interested.

Haha. Awesome. I was searching through the video trying to find it as I haven't watched this video since 2015.