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What is (ivy) good enough?
lianaLAW
Free Trial Member
I know better than to be doing things to impress this or that school, but these are all pre-existing interests of mine and I would like to know whether it's realistic to expect to get in with this particular mix of activities.
Aside from a 3.88 (that I plan to push up to a 3.9 by the end of Spring with a 4) GPA, and a 172 LSAT (hopefully- it's what I'm going for! My diagnostic is 157 and I have 7 months.......),
What kind of extracurriculars will help me as an undergrad (junior)? I'm currently pres of a UN-affiliated club and looking into starting (and by default becoming president of) a literary club, a finance club, and (subject to approvals) a harvard-affiliated student chapter (the affiliation exists, but the club doesn't. Go figure), a global professional association club, and (subject to interest and numbers) a track club (without a coach, so not a team). I've also recently joined MUN and hope to chair a conference.
I'd been considering running for student body leadership, but I think it's a massive time commitment and a ton of administrative work (great- but way too much of a commitment).What kind of internships will help? I'm studying econ and politics and haven't done any yet, aside from the odd work with, and not for, this or that company through my UN club. I'm looking at getting in 3-4 before July, after which I'll take 2 months almost completely off to focus on the LSAT before taking it in mid-September. I know I'd like one to be at a law firm just to get a real feel of it (probably taking this one first), but I also know that law schools adore other work experience. I really want to head off straight after graduating though, so I have to be really picky about my internships!
Thanks for toiling through and for your helpful comments!
Comments
Nothing will be more important than scoring high on the LSAT. This is especially true if you're planning on going straight to law school. I would put more time into that than trying to be involved in 4-5 clubs and tons of internships that frankly won't make all that much of a difference. Really rare/prestigious positions and actual work experience in relevant fields can be quite helpful. The top schools generally prefer candidates with 2-3 years work experience. Getting something at a law firm would be helpful, not only on your apps, but also so you can get a feel for what lawyers actually do.
I was also told that things like Phi Beta Kappa look really good on your law school apps.
Overall, just focus on keeping your GPA >3.9 and scoring in the 170s on the LSAT. If you can manage those two things, you can pretty much write your ticket to almost any Ivy league law school.
I was gonna say exactly what @"Alex Divine" said.
Be focused on keeping your GPA high and studying for the LSAT. Don't do clubs if they will compromise your grades and test scores.
that's really interesting information! I'd always had a firm belief that unless your grades were perfect or near-perfect these things made all the difference. Thanks, I'll be sure to prioritize my GPA and LSAT scores! I'd still like to do as many of these clubs as possible. I think it comes down to discipline and if I can learn to harness all the time I waste without thinking of it I'll be able to do all these things with no trade-offs! Also appreciate the Alpha etc mention. This is the first I've heard of it and it's not available to me but I take from that that prestigious associations are a plus.
No problem!
Softs make a difference, but when you're applying to schools like HYS CCN, random clubs won't really do much for you. That said, things like Fullbrights, TFA, and other things that will stand out on your app can make a difference. Furthermore, actual work experience seems to be very helpful as is evidenced by those with it outperforming their numbers/peers with similar scores.
The important thing is to understand that nothing comes close to the weight of your LSAT/GPA.
Also, nothing comes without a tradeoff. Nothing. There are only 24 hours in a day and every hour you spend doing literary club (which won't do much for your app, if anything at all) is time not spent studying for your courses and for the LSAT. If you enjoy doing those clubs, by all means continue to participate. But don't do so because you think admissions at, say, HLS is going to give you any bump for having done it.
An internship at a law firm is something worth pursing, though!
Best of luck
The thing is you will be competing against people with actual out of college work experience. No amount of extra curriculars can make up for that.
So like me you should probably count your blessings that LSAT and GPA are the main factors and that softer factors like extra curriculars and work experience don't matter much.
@lianaLAW I have to say that I disagree with the general idea behind most of the posts here. Law school is a big investment, both time and money. If you have never interned in anything related to law, how are you certain that you want to go to law school?
I'd suggest, yes, caring about your GPA. But I'd stop caring about the LSAT until you have some sort of legal experience to bolster that decision. With the time you have for not doing the LSAT prep, participate in clubs and extra-curricular activities. Those will help you get a job after you graduate, your LSAT score definitely won't and GPA likely won't (unless you have to share your GPA).
You are very interested in international affairs (public interest related) its seems. You should take some time and shoot for an internship in that field and probably study abroad or consider other post-graduate international opportunities (fullbright teaching or research, peace corps). TFA doesn't seem like the thing you'd want to do given your studies.
I'll add that international affairs was my original passion and after an internship with the State Dept/United Nations, I learned that international public interest law would not be fulfilling for me given its lack of weight in actual change. Whereas pursuing a masters in international development or MPA would've made more sense (both of which typically require work experience). You might not care about the challenges international public interest law has when it comes to the weight of it all. You might realize that you should be focused on international business law, like international arbitration. You might realize you should apply to be in the foreign service instead. The options are endless of what you might realize, but you should invest in those opportunities that allow you to realize this before law school.
In the end, like I posted on your other post, you won't regret experience. You will regret not having experience only because you were so focused on the LSAT. My boyfriend's best friend is at HLS. She received full tuition to more than one CCN/HYS schools. She had a 174 LSAT, not the craziest score in the world to warrant such $$$. But, she had a stellar GPA (like yourself) from a top university and completed two fullbrights. She's at HLS and is positive that she wants to be there because of her experience.
I get the focus on the LSAT and GPA, but I think life experience is even more important as a human (maybe not from a T14's eyes). If you're doing public interest law, your background and work experience does matter in terms of post-law school job placement and internships during law school.
This isn't all about what law schools will love from you, its about making sure you'll love law school as well.
Curious about what things either I or @"Seeking Perfection" wrote that you generally disagree with?
Sorry! Didn't mean that in a rude way. I think the main difference, is that you and Seeking both focused on the reasons why LSAT and GPA should take a priority over extra-curricular activities.
I focused in on the fact that lianaLAW doesn't seem to have much experience, and that the extra-curricular activities they are doing will help them to gain that experience. Which, in turn, will better inform them on whether or not law school is the way to go. Additionally, lianaLAW seems to be interested in international diplomacy/law (given UN club, etc.), so, while GPA and LSAT might be the things that matter to a law school, my experience with several friends who have gone through law school seeking to practice international law (esp. public interest) and experience in international diplomacy/law both have shown that experience does matter when getting the job. The law school you go to isn't necessarily enough to gain internship or career experience in international law, and sometimes the school itself (i.e. saying I went to HLS) isn't the determining factor since the field requires in-depth knowledge of international affairs beyond law.
I think if lianaLAW really is 100% certain that they want to do law even though they have not experienced interned in a (para)legal capacity and they do not want to do international public interest law, then your advice makes perfect sense.
Didn't mean to offend. Apologies for that.
@stormNYC Oh haha no problem man! I was just curious because I'm also interested in Ivy league schools
Solid advice though!
Thanks!
I also want to go ivy or NYU (and have no interest in international law, public or private, anymore. Hahaha).
I agree with what other people have said, but one other thing: this is way too much stuff for a year and a half if you are also in school full time. If I looked at that list of activities in that time period on a resume, I would assume that you were BSing a lot of it and it wasn't actually meaningful. I'm no law school admissions person, but I have hired, and it isn't just about the experience, it's about the quality of the experience. 3-4 internships in the next 6 months? That means you're only doing each one for 2 months at most, and unless you're clocking serious hours or it's part of a program that puts you through different rotations, you're just not going to get that much from an internship. Maybe you'd get something that would help you understand the field better, which is nothing to sneeze at, but my gut is that you are zooming through way too much way too fast.
What will you want to do? What will you love to do? Pick one, maybe two clubs. Do well at them and actually dive in. I would be skeptical of anyone who started 5 clubs in one year, or maybe I'd just assume they didn't do much with them. Find something that will let you actually learn about where you want to go, not just that will give you empty titles for your resume.
SNAPS. yes
.
Thank you all for your advice!
You're right to guess that my interests tend to go in that direction, but I've fortunately already realized what you did (that to affect change international public law is not a good bet). I still plan on interning at a law firm before applying, so I should be fairly sure whether or not law is for me before it gets late!
As for clubs I've decided to keep it to a bare minimum (only things that make a difference and have a real effect on my environment, and only 2-3) (plus track if I can fit in it because that's a stress killer!) And I'll focus on getting in 2 internships; one in law and another in something related to my economics major, since that's recommended anyway. Maybe risk analysis or the sort!
I know that work experience is extremely important, but I'd much prefer to enter law school as early as possible (it fits better in my life that way). Now that nearly everyone's expressed that extracurriculars and internships won't substitute for real work experience, I think my best bet is to work on my GPA and LSAT score.
I'm certain that little sets the IVY league apart from T14 schools, aside from the rep. I plan to apply to T14s as well, but I think it makes sense in terms of my score to aim to get into the most selective of them! On a side note, I won't be applying to Northwestern with my next to 0 experience CV.
Actually, I think that is a mistake. Northwestern has been known to accept strong applicants straight from undergrad with big scholarships on the condition that they defer for a year. Potentially locking that in or negotiating based on it seems worth $35 if you get a fee waiver.
I mean I think having the high LSAT is going to be a factor but I've seen and read about people with high gpas(4.0s) and high lsats (180s) still not getting into Ivy's. A lot of times this is because their overall application, with significant attention to the personal statement, being the breaker. Yes, focus on the lsat and your gpa, but I would also work on making a great personal statement. Even signing up for an admission course that will help you brain storm and make critical assessments of what you have could be of benefit. I recommend even reading Ivy's guide to law school admissions. She gives great advice on personal and diversity statements. I'm not saying this to dishearten you by any means I just want you to really think about you whole application. Remember that they do care what your entire application looks like and just having a high lsat and high ugpa won't necessarily guarantee your admission.
This is the first I've read of this! I'll be sure to apply now, provided that I manage to pull my LSAT score up to where it needs to be!
Thanks for the advice! I'm generally aware that admissions depend on far more than grades but now I'll be directing my attention towards the rest of my application. I'll look into an admissions course (though I'm doubtful of what I'll find since I live outside the US) and either way will order books on the subject and start thinking of it!
157 is a great diagnostic! I would first focus all my efforts on improving that score to the 170s within 7 months. Its definitely possible for you. Once you get that score, come back to us and we will read your palms to see your chances at ivy league schools. Top 14 law schools arent all ivy leagues but they are the gold standard for legal education
Yes, get your GPA as high as you can. You'll be happy later. Don't overload your schedule with internships/activities--pick your favorites but don't overdo it, like you were saying. In order of priority: 1) Grades, 2) LSAT, 3) Early career activities. And use the university's services a ton--the career center and advising. They probably won't be as accessible after you graduate so savor them now. You're in a good place time-wise.
I'd just like to echo what has been stated about the importance of the LSAT score. Don't underestimate this test or take a 170+ for granted. If you don't hit the expected LSAT scores for the school that you are interested in, don't expect to get in. You could have perfect softs, but if you don't hit that magical LSAT score that they're looking for, they won't even LOOK at your application. Presumptive deny indexes will throw you out.
Hmm. This may be a little too extreme. There are definitely those who are non-urm with decent softs who gained admissions to T14 schools with lower lsat scores. I believe mylsn data showed a low 160s scorer with an acceptance to UPenn. I do agree with the general sentiment that a high LSAT score is of paramount importance for having a decent chance in T14 schools.
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Thank you! I'm buying a study package (is that what we call it here) and I'll be around! I agree that T14s are the goal. I'm only focusing on IVY leagues to convince myself I NEED to score in the 170s!
Good luck!!
Update: now that the first wave midterm season is upon me I've come to a decision: almost definitely delaying law school by a year! I can't see myself possibly balancing between the GPA and LSAT scores I want, and I'm not dying to experience hardcore burnout! Anyway, I'll be around longer than previously thought. Wish me luck!