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Related Discussions
Where to send an ED app? Northwestern or Berkeley.
harrisonh
Alum Member
Background:
I scored a 164 on the Feb. 2018 LSAT. This was the low end of my PTing range of 164 - 172. GPA of 3.93. Attended a higher-end state school. I work at a legal aid firm as a paralegal, before that I was an AmeriCorps member at the same firm. I have eclectic undergrad experience including winning a grant to research public defense in my state (and actually doing the research), also majoring in English Lit and concentrating on Caribbean literature, and being a very proficient (but mostly amateur) classical musician. I'm probably headed for public interest, making scholarship money important. My spouse and I are in a financially stable position, though.
Question:
My question is pretty specific; I already know I need to retake the LSAT. However, before retaking the LSAT (probably on the new November date) I'd like to craft a really good ED app and send it either to Berkeley or Northwestern due to their scholarship offerings for being accepted ED. Generally, it seems like ED and an early cycle app would increase my chances of getting in and I like both of these schools enough that I'd go to either. Any thoughts on which?
Pros of Berkeley: historically seem to weigh GPA more highly, might like an applicant with demonstrated experience, devotion to public interest, and interesting background. Once my spouse and I establish CA residency, the cost decreases, and there's the 60K scholarship split over the three years. That would probably be affordable for us.
Pros of Northwestern: personal connections including a supervisor who went there, a professor from undergrad who knows admissions counselors and professors and would provide a solid recommendation. The full-ride scholarship seems like a double-edged sword: yeah, it'd be great, but it seems unrealistic. My chances of EDing Northwestern probably depend a lot on retaking the LSAT. But maybe those personal connections would help?
Thanks in advance! I really appreciate it.
Comments
Retake then whichever school you like more.
I say both - let me explain. ED apps usually have a really quick turnaround. I would choose the one you would most like to attend, apply ED and if you get in, great! If you do not, apply to the other school ED as well.
As far as between Berkeley or NU, Northwestern all the way. Berkeley might as well be Caracas, Venezuela right now in terms of free speech suppression and the political orientation of faculty and students. Northwestern (and University of Chicago for that matter) both have a far more balanced approached to academia and most professors try their best to keep their own political bias out of their presentation of the material. I know both schools have a rather robust Federalist Society as well. Of course, if you swing to the left, Berkeley might be just the safe space you desire.
That is my personal take - good luck!
If you're committed to doing ED your stats make you a stronger candidate for Berkeley than for Northwestern as the former (which you state above) carries equal weight for GPA and LSAT. Obviously you'll include in the app that you are retaking the LSAT.
@onecallthatsall
Admittedly, I'm pretty unfamiliar with schools west of Chicago, beyond poking around about Berkeley, UCLA, and Irvine here, TLS, and LSN. Most of that circles around admissions rather than campus culture. I appreciate your take... I jokingly say that I'm so moderate that everyone can find something to hate. But I definitely take your point.
@Ohnoeshalpme
Thanks for your comment. I get the stats focus - is there any reason to think that the soft factors I mentioned could make a difference at either, i.e. the connections at NW and possibly fitting the profile better at Berkeley? But yeah, stats are most of it.
I would say hands down Northwestern. But I might be biased because it is my top choice haha.
But here's my pitch - $60k scholarship doesn't go that far at Berkeley, especially with the astronomical cost of living there. It's not like Chicago is cheap, but much more affordable than Berkeley. The $150k at Northwestern is a much better deal. I'm generally of the mindset that you shouldn't ED anywhere that doesn't give a full scholarship for it.
Obviously you do need to retake. I think your odds are pretty similar to both schools with that LSAT, and it's not great. Northwestern is a little friendlier to people who have been out of school a little while and have work experience. But I think if you are going to put all your eggs into one basket, it should be the basket that will give you a better deal.
On another note, though Northwestern isn't exactly known for their public interest stats, they are actively trying to boost their numbers and have allocated a truckload of cash for students who are pursuing it. Since there's fewer people going that route, there's also less competition to get that truckload of cash. I think NU is an underrated spot for PI minded folks right now.
Are you sure you can take the Nov LSAT and still apply ED? I don't think that's the case. If so, awesome.
Whether you should apply ED or not depends on your new LSAT score. You have a great GPA and if your new LSAT is median or greater, i would not recommend ED'ing at all... if your new LSAT is still lower than median, then I would ED at NU given your situation.
If your LSAT is median or higher at the T14 (generally 169+) then you would be in the running for a variety of scholarships that are better than ED outcomes at UCB or NU. Think Darrow/Dillard. Not to mention you have a good chance of just flat-out getting ~$150k reg scholarship offers. If you happen to get a 172/173+ then you're looking at the opportunity of HYS and are also in the running for money at T6, as well as the previous opportunities from the 169ish LSAT.
The ONLY way I see ED being a wise strategy in your situation is if you score a 168 or lower on your next LSAT. It really is quite incredible what those last few points do for candidates as they approach the 99th percentile!
Typically, softs are good but are not going to overcome a big deficit in either LSAT or GPA. It's worth slightly more if you have an outstanding, rare soft like a Nobel Prize or Olympic medal. Something that few people possess. But otherwise, and especially as you go up in the rankings, having good softs makes you average. More frequently, softs can be seen as something that might be a tie breaker between you and another student with similar stats.
I'd say do what you want and maybe tap into their alum networks and see if some people are willing to share their experiences. Maybe consider the winters in Chicago, but then there's the rent in Berkeley. I'd visit both if you can. And please let us know what happens.
Northwestern. If you score near the upper end if that range the Berkeley scholarship probably isn't good enough to justify it.
Keep in mind that Northwestern ED isn't a fullride though. It is $50,000 a year with tuition now at about $62,000. Tuition basically increases $2000 or so every year.
@"Leah M B"
NU does have a nice clinical center.
Definitely with agree with the above sentiment. If you have 3.93, you can get into any school with the right LSAT
Thanks for all the comments!
@"Leah M B" and @lsatplaylist - I think of the two I'd probably like NU better. But the Berkeley GPA thing appeals to me if the worst happens and I score only nominally better (e.g. a 166). I think @m.c lshopeful addressed that point really well.
And @"Seeking Perfection" that's true, however, I'm not worried about cost of living. My spouse makes enough to cover both our living expenses, even if we lived in the Bay area. I also have some educational award money from the AmeriCorps year.
So as a general response, definitely appreciate the concerns about COL, I don't think that's as big of a factor for me, but I also need to know how bad it is before I go throwing all my eggs in one basket!
So, it sounds like spending the rest of the summer polishing my app and studying for a retake is in order so I can ED really quickly if my retake isn't that much better.
I think you have a better shot of getting into Berkley. If you're applying really early, then I'd suggest applying to the reach schools first. I believe someone in this thread suggested you concurrently apply ED. I'm pretty sure that is prohibited. So if you end up considering that, be sure to double check the rules.
Congratulations! You are on the right track and I bet you will do great. Perfect game plan!
@harrisonhartsough
I didn't mention cost of living.
Tuition at Northwestern Law is $62,000 a year right now.
The scholarship is $50,000.
Cost of living would be on top of that $12,000 a year + whatever each year's tuition increase is.
i am thinking the same thing - i want to apply ED to northwestern, but i got a 161 on the feb 2018 LSAT. do i have a chance of getting in even though northwestern's 25th percentile is 163?
Curious as to why you would ED if, and let’s assume when, you make significant strides in your LSAT score. My curiosity issues from my understanding—potentially false—that you should not ED at schools if you’re at or above both 75ths.
Perhaps, in skimming, I didn’t catch your reasons.
TBH I'm assuming nothing re the LSAT score, because that 164 was after many, many PTs which were notably more successful. My average PT score was about a 168 and I really thought I was going to hit that on test day. Then I had one of those irregular logic games that I think messed me up. My typical scoring on the sections was about -1 to -2 on LG, -3 to -5 on LR, and -2 to -4 on RC. I think that day (although it was undisclosed) I missed 6 on the LG.