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Deciding where to apply... help
emmacharley
Member
Hey there,
Does anyone have advice on strategies or resources for deciding to which schools I should apply? I have looked at the lsat/gpa predictors, and I'm more interested in how you distinguish between schools within the ranges. For context, for undergrad I knew what school I liked, applied ED, and went. So I am new to school researching and gauging likelihood of acceptance.
Any advice would be appreciated! TIA!
Comments
What things are the most important to you for your law school experience?
Compare your LSAT and GPA to develop three lists of potential schools:
Dream schools that are a "stretch"
Core schools where your application will be competitive
Safety schools where you will more than likely be admitted
What to consider (IMHO)
I Location (Where do you see yourself practicing, where would you enjoy studying, etc)
II $, $$, $$$ (How much debt [if any] are you comfortable graduating with)
III Diversity of student body (More perspectives=More knowledge)
IV Academic programs (clinical opportunities, joint degree offerings, etc)
V Career services and placement rates (What is the bar passage rate, what does life after look like)
Hope this helps
Also consider where you want to practice in the future! That's a huge factor for me and it cut down my options quite a bit.
For me it's location, rankings, and looking into the courses, clinics, and other opportunities the school has. For instance, I am interested in immigration law and found schools that have opportunities for students to travel to Mexico to work with migrants during the summer, or that have dedicated immigration clinics. If you have an idea of the kind of law you want to specialize in, there are schools that are better for those types of law. And of course cost is a major factor!
That's so cool! Good for you! Makes sense though, I'm interested in health and tech law so I'll start by looking for that. Thanks!
What are your stats? What State are you a resident in? Where do you want to live/practice law?
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For me my rankings were very different.
1a. Career outlook (Ranking plays into this a lot, and so does location, but they are not the same.)
1b. Program (What opportunities are there that make the program special or better than other programs? Ranking and reputation are important, but not the same as quality of program or opportunities in that program). Things like clinicals, subject rankings, connections to individual aspects of law, centers in my areas of interest, externships, foreign partnerships and study abroad.
1b. Cost (Including cost of living in that location) and financial aid support. Do they give lots of large scholarships, mostly average scholarships, or only a few large and many small. How do I feel about paying tuition at those levels.
Atmosphere of school. Are deans and professors mindful of students? Is the campus collegial or competitive? Are career services over worked? Does the school encourage networking within the class? Is the class diverse and open to students with many different backgrounds.
Location. Ties to industry where you want to practice, climate, geography, family/friends ect.
Note I did not include ranking because, unless you are the type to gain a lot of personal satisfaction from the reputation of your school, it is basically useless. What matters for your future is how employers and peers view your school, not US News. Does it have a good reputation? Duke is ranked near the bottom of the T14 but enjoys one of the best reputations among employers. Also, if you are considering international practice, or are set on a certain area of practice, is their reputation different there? In the case of Duke, they are ranked 12th in the USA by US News, but 6th in the world by THE. Harvard, ranked 3rd in the US, falls below #12 Duke in the same survey. I would think in Harvard's case that is fine, and not an argument against it because the brand of the university as a whole is so good globally. However, UVA, ranked 8th in the US, does not have an international brand, and is not in the top 50 law schools in the world by THE. If you specifically want to practice internationally Harvard is still probably better than Duke, but UVA, once you are outside the USA, might not be a school your future employers are familiar with.
Another note, think about what you want to accomplish. If you just want to be a lawyer, maybe join a family practice locally, and later start your own, school ranking isn't important. Cost and location should be much higher on your list. If you want Big Law, than big law career outlooks and reputation should be at the top. If you want to be a clerk, the schools with the best clerkship placements should be the most important.
My overall point is, your school choices for application and attendance should be based on the things that you value and your future desires. Mine will be different than yours or the next person. That is a good thing.
Another example, I recently attended info sessions with Minnesota and Wash U. Minnesota left me feeling like they dodged my questions and did not address my concerns. Wash U was consistently very open and candorous. They straight up said that if our program isn't aligning to your interests do not come here. They also showed through that presentation a myriad of ways they support students. I was left feeling like they deeply cared about their students and are transparent with both students and applicants. Maybe for some people that wouldn't matter, they only want ranking, but for me that spoke volumes about the institution and I am left wondering if I should move Wash U above my lower T14 targets despite their lower reputation and career outcomes. I do not think I will be applying to Minn in my first round of applications.
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@emmacharley lots of schools are now doing online info sessions and LSAC has several school forums coming up. You'll just have to research for yourself. The LSAC forum in September is a great start though.
I would look on which state I want to live in first and choose only accreditted schools, looking at costs, academic curricula, professors.
Bar Passage rate is my top priority. It's the entire reason to go to law school and I've recently found out that several schools do very little to aid their students in dedicated prep for the bar.
An incredibly enlightening book that I just read is "Most Law School Advice is Bullsh*t". It covers some of the things other people discussed here: the US News rankings should not be a factor in where you decide to go to school, and rankings don't go as far to help you in your job search as you think it does. And it gives guidance on the important things when picking a law school. It's a quick and easy read, but I am so grateful to have stumbled across it on Amazon.
Thanks so much! I'll definitely check it out.
I absolutely agree that bar passage rate is relevant, but much of the preparation is on you, not the school. Bar passage rate also varies a ton by state. So a given school's bar passage rate may have a lot more to do with what percentage of students are taking which bar exam. If you can find out their bar passage for the market you want to practice in, that is more important. You should also look at their bar passage relevant to their ranking/admissions standards. Better, smarter students are going to be the norm at Duke or Columbia than Campbell or Fordham. Knowing that they have better passage rates is partly a reflection of the students they let in. I think Washington and Lee is a great example of a Tier 2 school (#31) with an excellent bar passage rate, 96.7% and most of their graduates are practicing in Virginia, which means it is easier to compare with other Virginia schools.
I would not however go so far as to say that reputation should not be a factor in your decision. It does matter. Your personal effort, talent, and skills matter more, but ranking is not irrelevant. I used to feel that way about schools in general, went to a very regional state school. Trust me, my degree there was not valued equally to the students I advised at UNC. The walked out of undergrad with consultant jobs and near 6 figure salaries at the end of the recession not because they were the best and brightest, but because even at the undergraduate level UNC's prestige opens doors that just might not open for a less prestigious/well branded school. The ranking number is irrelevant, but it is partially reflective of the prestige, brand, and reputation.
There are however, sources that show you how real people in industry view schools. For example, Duke is at the bottom of the T14 at #12 this year. However, their graduates are viewed near the top of the T14 by legal professionals if my memory serves me. I believe that article was found on AboveTheLaw. A further caveat, maybe your school has one reputation for one branch of law and another in another. It may be that, (and this is completely hypothetical) while Michigan has great connections to the finance law world their IP law program is not viewed as desirably in industry. Perhaps Cornell is the opposite. Maybe mid ranked California based school three has a wonderful reputation in and connections to the IP law world. You may be just as well off going there as going to Michigan or Cornell in this hypothetical.
All that said, your work, skill, effort, and class ranking at the end of 3 years matters more. So does your experience in law school. Is the atmosphere really competitive and you are not a competitive person? Do you hate big cities or simply not want to pay CoL there? How do you feel about needing to take the insane hours of big law to cover your lack of generous financial aid? Do what is best for you regardless of what any of us say.
Further caveat, if you want to do public interest, take the best scholarship you can get largely ignoring ranking.