Are Law School Ranking The Most Important Variable?

Comments

• 2 Likes

  _oshun1_ Alum Member

  October 2018 edited October 2018 3652 karma

  UCI but I wouldn’t pay money for it. I noticed you mentioned concentrations, those don’t matter to employers. Don’t worry about choosing a school when you haven’t been accepted yet.
• 2 Likes

  gettysburg Alum Member

  October 2018 126 karma

  I wouldn't say that ranking matters so much as employment does; rankings are just an easy way to estimate roughly how well a school can employ its graduates. However - the actual employment #s and %s, what region(s) or markets graduates end up working in, and the nature of that work (large firm, PI, small firm, solo, etc.) matter a lot.
• cqas190517 Alum Member 🍌

  October 2018 535 karma

  Hey! You’re in my area! Have you visited either school? Are you also aware that you have to pass the patent bar before you can practice patent law?

  I’d say the school visits are the most important thing you’ll ever do. I’ve been to UCI (Loyola isn’t on my list) and the impression I got from the open house was that the school was very bubbly, youthful and progressive. I liked it a lot, but it didn’t feel like “home” to me. They focused so much on the clinical aspect of school that I began to think that they students were roving bands of self-taught academics who had never seen a professor- the emphasis was really placed heavily on externships and clinical work.

  Also, keep in mind that it’s probably best to take as many bar classes as possible while in school, because you’re essentially paying them to teach you how to pass the bar, and you can use your externhips and some electives to flesh out your program. The program or concentration is a little less important than passing the bar lol.

  Overall, UCI is a great school if you want to focus really heavily on clinics, clubs, and externships, and also if you want an active alumni network and an atmosphere that focuses on social justice. Also it’s a fairly big school with a collegiate vibe. If that’s not your thing, you may not like the school. But before you accept any invitation you NEED to visit the schools you like. I thought I’d actually hate the school that turned into my first pick after I visited
• LAWYERED Alum Member

  October 2018 335 karma

  @cqas190517 said:
  Hey! You’re in my area! Have you visited either school? Are you also aware that you have to pass the patent bar before you can practice patent law?

  I’d say the school visits are the most important thing you’ll ever do. I’ve been to UCI (Loyola isn’t on my list) and the impression I got from the open house was that the school was very bubbly, youthful and progressive. I liked it a lot, but it didn’t feel like “home” to me. They focused so much on the clinical aspect of school that I began to think that they students were roving bands of self-taught academics who had never seen a professor- the emphasis was really placed heavily on externships and clinical work.

  Also, keep in mind that it’s probably best to take as many bar classes as possible while in school, because you’re essentially paying them to teach you how to pass the bar, and you can use your externhips and some electives to flesh out your program. The program or concentration is a little less important than passing the bar lol.

  Overall, UCI is a great school if you want to focus really heavily on clinics, clubs, and externships, and also if you want an active alumni network and an atmosphere that focuses on social justice. Also it’s a fairly big school with a collegiate vibe. If that’s not your thing, you may not like the school. But before you accept any invitation you NEED to visit the schools you like. I thought I’d actually hate the school that turned into my first pick after I visited

  I think you made really great points and wholly agree with you. Visiting is really important. Do you guys think it's best to visit a bunch of schools rn or AFTER you get in? So far, I haven't visited any schools but plan to see a few of the ones I'm applying to (maybe 2-3).
• PandaRamen Alum Member

  October 2018 162 karma

  @cqas190517 said:
  Hey! You’re in my area! Have you visited either school? Are you also aware that you have to pass the patent bar before you can practice patent law?

  I’d say the school visits are the most important thing you’ll ever do. I’ve been to UCI (Loyola isn’t on my list) and the impression I got from the open house was that the school was very bubbly, youthful and progressive. I liked it a lot, but it didn’t feel like “home” to me. They focused so much on the clinical aspect of school that I began to think that they students were roving bands of self-taught academics who had never seen a professor- the emphasis was really placed heavily on externships and clinical work.

  Also, keep in mind that it’s probably best to take as many bar classes as possible while in school, because you’re essentially paying them to teach you how to pass the bar, and you can use your externhips and some electives to flesh out your program. The program or concentration is a little less important than passing the bar lol.

  Overall, UCI is a great school if you want to focus really heavily on clinics, clubs, and externships, and also if you want an active alumni network and an atmosphere that focuses on social justice. Also it’s a fairly big school with a collegiate vibe. If that’s not your thing, you may not like the school. But before you accept any invitation you NEED to visit the schools you like. I thought I’d actually hate the school that turned into my first pick after I visited

  Yes. Ive actually been to both schools since I am based in SoCal. I think you hit the nail in the head with the UCI externships and clinic programs. I think it's because of their community based approach. From what I heard, the community around the OC area really like what UCI law is doing.

  Also yes, I have looked into the patent bar. During my undergraduate year, I actually emailed a bunch of patent lawyers in the OC/LA area to get their take of the field. So I do have clear goals I just confused on which path to take. I guess the main reason I started this thread was to ask: Should Law School Ranking Matter as much as US News Report want us to believe?
• cqas190517 Alum Member 🍌

  October 2018 535 karma

  @PandaRamen said:

  @cqas190517 said:
  Hey! You’re in my area! Have you visited either school? Are you also aware that you have to pass the patent bar before you can practice patent law?

  I’d say the school visits are the most important thing you’ll ever do. I’ve been to UCI (Loyola isn’t on my list) and the impression I got from the open house was that the school was very bubbly, youthful and progressive. I liked it a lot, but it didn’t feel like “home” to me. They focused so much on the clinical aspect of school that I began to think that they students were roving bands of self-taught academics who had never seen a professor- the emphasis was really placed heavily on externships and clinical work.

  Also, keep in mind that it’s probably best to take as many bar classes as possible while in school, because you’re essentially paying them to teach you how to pass the bar, and you can use your externhips and some electives to flesh out your program. The program or concentration is a little less important than passing the bar lol.

  Overall, UCI is a great school if you want to focus really heavily on clinics, clubs, and externships, and also if you want an active alumni network and an atmosphere that focuses on social justice. Also it’s a fairly big school with a collegiate vibe. If that’s not your thing, you may not like the school. But before you accept any invitation you NEED to visit the schools you like. I thought I’d actually hate the school that turned into my first pick after I visited

  Yes. Ive actually been to both schools since I am based in SoCal. I think you hit the nail in the head with the UCI externships and clinic programs. I think it's because of their community based approach. From what I heard, the community around the OC area really like what UCI law is doing.

  Also yes, I have looked into the patent bar. During my undergraduate year, I actually emailed a bunch of patent lawyers in the OC/LA area to get their take of the field. So I do have clear goals I just confused on which path to take. I guess the main reason I started this thread was to ask: Should Law School Ranking Matter as much as US News Report want us to believe?

  I don’t peraoblly think ratings make much of a difference because for me, it comes down to being in an environment that I know will support my goals and then promote my transition to lawyerhood. Ratings are based primarily on medians and they can’t tell you how good Career Services is, how much the professors invest in the students, or how many programs are available. I guess if you really are concerned with the “brand” or image of a school, then rankings matter. But even a good brand and reputation of a school can’t make up for bad grades because you don’t jive with the vine of the place shrug
• cqas190517 Alum Member 🍌

  October 2018 535 karma

  @LAWYERED said:

  @cqas190517 said:
  Hey! You’re in my area! Have you visited either school? Are you also aware that you have to pass the patent bar before you can practice patent law?

  I’d say the school visits are the most important thing you’ll ever do. I’ve been to UCI (Loyola isn’t on my list) and the impression I got from the open house was that the school was very bubbly, youthful and progressive. I liked it a lot, but it didn’t feel like “home” to me. They focused so much on the clinical aspect of school that I began to think that they students were roving bands of self-taught academics who had never seen a professor- the emphasis was really placed heavily on externships and clinical work.

  Also, keep in mind that it’s probably best to take as many bar classes as possible while in school, because you’re essentially paying them to teach you how to pass the bar, and you can use your externhips and some electives to flesh out your program. The program or concentration is a little less important than passing the bar lol.

  Overall, UCI is a great school if you want to focus really heavily on clinics, clubs, and externships, and also if you want an active alumni network and an atmosphere that focuses on social justice. Also it’s a fairly big school with a collegiate vibe. If that’s not your thing, you may not like the school. But before you accept any invitation you NEED to visit the schools you like. I thought I’d actually hate the school that turned into my first pick after I visited

  I think you made really great points and wholly agree with you. Visiting is really important. Do you guys think it's best to visit a bunch of schools rn or AFTER you get in? So far, I haven't visited any schools but plan to see a few of the ones I'm applying to (maybe 2-3).

  I’d say before. I knocked two off my list of five because I didn’t like the school once I visited, and that’ll save me application fees.
• Adam Hawks Alum Member

  October 2018 990 karma

  So you have a 158, that's very good. But if you get another 6-7 points, you can go to UCI with a significant scholarship. I suggest that you keep pushing yourself just that bit further so you can avoid the future pain of loan repayment .
• 2 Likes

  _oshun1_ Alum Member

  October 2018 3652 karma

  @cqas190517 said:

  They focused so much on the clinical aspect of school that I began to think that they students were roving bands of self-taught academics who had never seen a professor- the emphasis was really placed heavily on externships and clinical work.

  Just popping in to say that this isn’t the best way to judge a law school. If you speak to any t12 dean, admissions director, or student, they will tell you how much the school stresses pro bono work and clinics. One t12 dean even said at an ASW, if you don’t want to do pro bono work leave right now. Most successful attorneys, even those not in public interest, do pro bono work on top of their day job.
• cqas190517 Alum Member 🍌

  October 2018 edited October 2018 535 karma

  @oshun1 said:

  @cqas190517 said:

  They focused so much on the clinical aspect of school that I began to think that they students were roving bands of self-taught academics who had never seen a professor- the emphasis was really placed heavily on externships and clinical work.

  Just popping in to say that this isn’t the best way to judge a law school. If you speak to any t12 dean, admissions director, or student, they will tell you how much the school stresses pro bono work and clinics. One t12 dean even said at an ASW, if you don’t want to do pro bono work leave right now. Most successful attorneys, even those not in public interest, do pro bono work on top of their day job.

  I think you’ve misinterpreted my comments to mean something they’re not. I wasn’t judging the school based on the clinical access they offer. I was explaining my observation that “name brand” faculty, as usually emphasized at other schools, weren’t a big part of the presentation at UCI.
• _oshun1_ Alum Member

  October 2018 3652 karma

  @cqas190517 said:

  @oshun1 said:

  @cqas190517 said:

  They focused so much on the clinical aspect of school that I began to think that they students were roving bands of self-taught academics who had never seen a professor- the emphasis was really placed heavily on externships and clinical work.

  Just popping in to say that this isn’t the best way to judge a law school. If you speak to any t12 dean, admissions director, or student, they will tell you how much the school stresses pro bono work and clinics. One t12 dean even said at an ASW, if you don’t want to do pro bono work leave right now. Most successful attorneys, even those not in public interest, do pro bono work on top of their day job.

  I think you’ve misinterpreted my comments to mean something they’re not. I wasn’t judging the school based on the clinical access they offer. I was explaining my observation that “name brand” faculty, as usually emphasized at other schools, weren’t a big part of the presentation at UCI.

  Which schools talk about name brand faculty? I haven’t heard that as a bragging point even by Stanford
• cqas190517 Alum Member 🍌

  October 2018 535 karma

  @oshun1 said:

  @cqas190517 said:

  @oshun1 said:

  @cqas190517 said:

  They focused so much on the clinical aspect of school that I began to think that they students were roving bands of self-taught academics who had never seen a professor- the emphasis was really placed heavily on externships and clinical work.

  Just popping in to say that this isn’t the best way to judge a law school. If you speak to any t12 dean, admissions director, or student, they will tell you how much the school stresses pro bono work and clinics. One t12 dean even said at an ASW, if you don’t want to do pro bono work leave right now. Most successful attorneys, even those not in public interest, do pro bono work on top of their day job.

  I think you’ve misinterpreted my comments to mean something they’re not. I wasn’t judging the school based on the clinical access they offer. I was explaining my observation that “name brand” faculty, as usually emphasized at other schools, weren’t a big part of the presentation at UCI.

  Which schools talk about name brand faculty? I haven’t heard that as a bragging point even by Stanford

  Hm well ok. I visited a few schools that made sure to let me know that they had writers of legal textbooks as tenured professors and published political analysis as adjuncts. Apparently we’ve been visiting different schools. But I’m not even sure what that has to do with OP at this point, so if you’d like further clarification please feel free to PM me.
• _oshun1_ Alum Member

  October 2018 edited October 2018 3652 karma

  @cqas190517 said:

  @oshun1 said:

  @cqas190517 said:

  @oshun1 said:

  @cqas190517 said:

  They focused so much on the clinical aspect of school that I began to think that they students were roving bands of self-taught academics who had never seen a professor- the emphasis was really placed heavily on externships and clinical work.

  Just popping in to say that this isn’t the best way to judge a law school. If you speak to any t12 dean, admissions director, or student, they will tell you how much the school stresses pro bono work and clinics. One t12 dean even said at an ASW, if you don’t want to do pro bono work leave right now. Most successful attorneys, even those not in public interest, do pro bono work on top of their day job.

  I think you’ve misinterpreted my comments to mean something they’re not. I wasn’t judging the school based on the clinical access they offer. I was explaining my observation that “name brand” faculty, as usually emphasized at other schools, weren’t a big part of the presentation at UCI.

  Which schools talk about name brand faculty? I haven’t heard that as a bragging point even by Stanford

  Hm well ok. I visited a few schools that made sure to let me know that they had writers of legal textbooks as tenured professors and published political analysis as adjuncts. Apparently we’ve been visiting different schools. But I’m not even sure what that has to do with OP at this point, so if you’d like further clarification please feel free to PM me.

  I don’t think that’s unique to any particular school. All professors have publications, it’s part of the requirement in becoming a professor, and a large number have their own textbooks. I can’t imagine a dean or admissions director sharing that information unsolicited as it’s not a unique selling point. It has to do with OP bc you [jokingly?] implied UCI is weak in academia, due to the fact that they emphasize clinics. It took me seconds to google “UCI law professor textbook” and find multiple professors who wrote legal textbooks. I’m not even interested in the school personally but UCI is a fantastic school in both academia and in providing practical experience.

  Maybe lower ranked schools try to stress to you that their professors are capable of teaching since they worry people might think they are weak in academia.
• cqas190517 Alum Member 🍌

  October 2018 535 karma

  @oshun1 said:

  @cqas190517 said:

  @oshun1 said:

  @cqas190517 said:

  @oshun1 said:

  @cqas190517 said:

  They focused so much on the clinical aspect of school that I began to think that they students were roving bands of self-taught academics who had never seen a professor- the emphasis was really placed heavily on externships and clinical work.

  Just popping in to say that this isn’t the best way to judge a law school. If you speak to any t12 dean, admissions director, or student, they will tell you how much the school stresses pro bono work and clinics. One t12 dean even said at an ASW, if you don’t want to do pro bono work leave right now. Most successful attorneys, even those not in public interest, do pro bono work on top of their day job.

  I think you’ve misinterpreted my comments to mean something they’re not. I wasn’t judging the school based on the clinical access they offer. I was explaining my observation that “name brand” faculty, as usually emphasized at other schools, weren’t a big part of the presentation at UCI.

  Which schools talk about name brand faculty? I haven’t heard that as a bragging point even by Stanford

  Hm well ok. I visited a few schools that made sure to let me know that they had writers of legal textbooks as tenured professors and published political analysis as adjuncts. Apparently we’ve been visiting different schools. But I’m not even sure what that has to do with OP at this point, so if you’d like further clarification please feel free to PM me.

  I don’t think that’s unique to any particular school. All professors have publications, it’s part of the requirement in becoming a professor, and a large number have their own textbooks. I can’t imagine a dean or admissions director sharing that information unsolicited as it’s not a unique selling point. It has to do with OP bc you [jokingly?] implied UCI is weak in academia, due to the fact that they emphasize clinics. It took me seconds to google “UCI law professor textbook” and find multiple professors who wrote legal textbooks. I’m not even interested in the school personally but UCI is a fantastic school in both academia and in providing practical experience.

  Maybe lower ranked schools try to stress to you that their professors are capable of teaching since they worry people might think they are weak in academia.

  I didn’t imply anything of the sort. I simply stated that during my visit, the credentials of the staff weren’t presented as a selling point of the school. The faculty itself wasn’t ever mentioned by name.
• 1 Like

  VerdantZephyr Member ⭐

  October 2020 2054 karma

  So I think you are considering the right things Where you want to practice, who can help you learn the type of law you want, whether clinicals are important to you. @cqas190517 pointed out something that is quite important to some people, myself included, and not important to others. I think that is exactly the sort of thing you can learn during visits, but right now, because of Covid, schools are doing a lot of virtual visits and information sessions. For me, I had Vanderbilt and Minnesota pretty high on my list and removed Minnesota and am now on the fence about Vanderbilt because of things I learned in online info sessions. From emailing administration I learned that Northwestern is not always responsive to perspective student enquiries, which leaves me concerned how they treat actual students, while Michigan blew me away with their detailed and carefully crafted response to an anonymous inquiry. At Duke I experience both an Ad Com member that was not helpful at all and a dean that was very warm and helpful, so your experience with a single person may come down to an individual or a day, but it could also be a sign of other things. Use all of these online interactions that are suddenly necessary for schools to learn as much as you can before you attend.

  As far as your original question, ranking and prestige may be entirely irrelevant depending on your career goals. It sounds like you have a leg up on a lot of applicants regarding what those are, so evaluate them honestly.

  For example, while I am interested in a very different field of law, being committed to international development and human rights, I realized in my searches that even though US News Ranking is not that important to me personally chasing mid and lower T14 would, because of resources, give me the clinicals, connections, and international opportunities I want to better prepare me for international human rights and also open the door if I ever decide to join academia or pursue a job in a highly competitive organization like the UN. I definitely want the first, while the second is a potential future, but both are markedly better served by T14. I have not removed places like Texas, Emory, Wash U, and Washington and Lee from my lists, but I am focusing on lower/mid T14 more than I was and have decided to take additional shots at schools like Michigan, Penn, and Chicago which I was not looking at originally.

  To put that back on you, are you looking to be partner in a big law patent department or looking to go in house ASAP? Is a smaller patent office okay? Are you looking to move into management or consulting in the tech field with (I think you mentioned) computer science background? Are you open to and would it be harmful to move to a well known East Coast program that specializes in both cyber security and patent? You have implied the answers to some of these things I think, but it will come down to trading out one school's good points for another's. Good news is you do not have to decide for a long time. Certainly apply to both and see what they offer. Maybe one will surprise you with a 60% scholarship and the other will offer nothing. I would suggest applying to more than those two schools as well. Even if you get into the schools you would prefer over them you can always use any additional admission or scholarship offers to negotiate out of pocket cost. Maybe you can even swing a few fee waivers. I spent a very early Saturday morning here in Asia at the first LSAC forum and got several fee waivers for my time. They have another in a few weeks. That will combine info sessions with fee waiver opportunities.
• 2 Likes

  VerdantZephyr Member ⭐

  October 2020 2054 karma

  And I just realize that I replied to a several year old post because a spam bot posted in it and sent it to recent discussions. That explains all the discussion about campus visits.